Swans of Glencullen/Sandyford

pinkypinky

Hi all,

I need some fresh eyes on this please.

GG grandmother Mary/Maria Swan married 1876, living in Springfield, Co. Dublin Glencullen Church to James Lawless of Stepaside. Her father was William, deceased by then. She just gives her age as full but censuses give birth year of 1856/57, though she is illiterate.

Looking at Swan names in the Sandyford parish on Irish Genealogy.

Marriage between Gulielmus Swan and Elizabeth Maguire on 24/2/1851 with all these children recorded with the same named parents.

Jacobus (James) 1851
Johannes (John) 1851 (but not even the same book of the records)
Daniel 1853
Maria 1855

Safe to suggest these are their kids and I've found a set of ggg grandparents?

Census information for the various families show them being bad on ages but roughly speaking 3 families with a John, James and Daniel Swan exist in Glencullen. There's also a single Michael Swan, who may be a later child. A Laurence Swan is godfather to James and Maria's daughter Elizabeth. 3 different people called Farrell are either sponsors or witnesses, so they may be neighbours or relations.

I'm not really familiar with that are of the south county. Rootsireland throws up various Swan names in their few parish but I'm reluctant to spend a pile of money without more to go on.

shanew

The adjacent RC parishes to Sandyford in the 1850s would be Kingstown/Cabinteely to the east, Booterstown/Blackrock/Dundrum to the north, and Rathfarnham to the west.

I dont see a townland in the area named Springfield - maybe the name of an estate or house ?


Shane

pinkypinky

Possibly - though they're not rich. I found a James Lawless baptised in the right year in Kingstown on Rootsireland.

Hadn't thought of Rathfarnham. Thanks.

pedroeibar1

pinkypinky wrote: »

Hi all,

I need some fresh eyes on this please.

<<<<Looking at Swan names in the Sandyford parish on Irish Genealogy.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<I'm not really familiar with that are of the south county. Rootsireland throws up various Swan names in their few parish but I'm reluctant to spend a pile of money without more to go on.

Swan is a surname that has occurred in Glenageary - there is a dip in Upper Glenageary Rd roughly where Altadore is, known by older locals as Swan's Hollow.
P.

shanew

there a house named Springfield listed in Lewis 1837 in the (Civil) parish of Rathmichael - this was included in the RC parish of Sandyford.

Rathmichael covered the eastern part of the RC parish and includes :

Ballycorus, Barnaslingan, Shanganagh and out as far as Shankill

will check to see if I can find the house...

The owner is a Hon. R. Plunkett

see : http://www.libraryireland.com/topog/R/Rathmichael-Rathdown-Dublin.php


Shane

shanew

found it - http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,724689,721418,7,7

It's in Shankill townland and just west of Shankill town and the M50/M11 junction


S.

pinkypinky

Oooh thanks guys.

There's also a person called Swan in Glencullen in the phonebook. Tempted to get out some writing paper.

shanew

back to your original question... I'd say a very likely match to the family of your Mary/Maria. William Swan and Elizabeth Maguire seem to be the only Swan couple with children in the timeframe and area... pity the Sandyford registers dont show residences around this time.

I had a look for Swan entries on Griffith's to see if there were any clues there but no sign of any Swan households that I saw - in the entire PLU. Maybe William lived and worked on an estate, so was not included.


Shane

CeannRua

There is this as well: http://source.southdublinlibraries.ie/handle/10599/3242

which I think is a different Springfield nearer Glencullen? Sorry if leading astray - only have fairly basic grasp of this area.

References to owners here about three-quarters down: http://www.kilternan.info/History/fromlibrary.asp

Some of those Sandyford entries look to have been entered twice on irishgenealogy.ie. Apart from the one where person baptised is Maria Swan, there is also this entry which looks like poor transcription:
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/02645e0042908

shanew

Here's the other Springfield house that CeannRua mentioned : http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,721217,720553,6,7

In the townland of Ballygetagh, and close to the scalp.


S.

CeannRua

By the way, on the new tranche on Irish Genealogy, they don't seem to have transcribed the townland name in some cases. I've been looking at a couple of parishes and the townland is there as plain as day in the pdf but they've put N/R in the transcription. Don't know why Sandyford isn't imaged or if they are going to publish it but might be worth a look at the microfilm to see what's in the original.

pinkypinky

CeannRua,

Thanks for those comments.
I am hoping to get in at some stage to check the microfilm but the references are different for the same named people - they may be included in more than one book. The Jacobus/Johannes ones are not consecutive so unlikely to be twins. Based on the parents' marriage date, I'd speculate she was already pregnant with the first one and then other born at the end of the year.

Shane, I also looked at everything on Origins this afternoon and agree with what you found - no Swans in the whole area.

I'm going to read all the links for the area tomorrow when I'm fresh.

Thanks
PP

CeannRua

Agree that same people probably recorded in two books; maybe summary record without sponsors named in one book.

Can I ask what might be a stupid question though? Do you know for sure there was both a John and James in this family? Reason I ask is that if you look at all the 1851 baptisms for Sandyford any one of them I checked is entered twice except for your James and John (only checked a couple though but there is an odd number of entries). I was wondering if one is a mistranscription of the other?

P. Breathnach

Many, but by no means all, records seem to have been duplicated. It looks to me as if there were two registers, one maintained in a chapel of ease, and the other in the main parish church.

There are some other inconsistencies in what looks like the transcription of entries from one register to another, some to do with the Latinisation of names, and some other differences in spelling. I suspect that Jacobus and Johannes are the one person, and that his real name is John (my read is that the fuller record was made in the chapel, and a summary was copied into the main parish register).

Marrying on 24 February and having two children who are not twins in the same calendar year would be quite an organisational challenge. Possible, yes, but ...!

zagmund

This location is what was the Dublin Sports Hotel of old. For the fact fans out there, it's also right on the border between Dun Laoghaire Rathdown & Wicklow.

It's currently the location for the Ski Club of Ireland, and a rather natty (though unoccupied) monument to the Celtic Tiger - a huge redevelopment of the hotel came to a shuddering halt at exactly the wrong time. There was also a golf club in the grounds but I can't remember the name. It was disbanded while the developer rebuilt everything with gold trimmings and then when the development stopped the club had nowhere to play any more, although I think they now play in Powerscourt.

Pinky - I'm familiar enough with the area and have some possible sources - what exactly are you trying to determine in this case ? It looks like you have a fair match for Maria in terms of the birth cert although it's just 'a Maria Swan' and you indicate there are other Swan families in the area.

z

CeannRua wrote: »

There is this as well: http://source.southdublinlibraries.ie/handle/10599/3242

which I think is a different Springfield nearer Glencullen? Sorry if leading astray - only have fairly basic grasp of this area.

pinkypinky

Zagmund,

To clarify, the other swan families are all in the next generation, as in they are Maria's likely brothers and their families. I'm trying to get back further but the records don't go back further. She and her husband moved into the city after the birth of one child and the family stayed there.

P Breathnach
I take your point but I've never seen Jacobus translated as John.

P. Breathnach

pinkypinky wrote: »

P Breathnach
I take your point but I've never seen Jacobus translated as John.

I'm not suggesting a translation error. I'm suggesting a transcription error, and my backup for the suggestion is that many other records were inaccurately transcribed in the same year. I visualise somebody making notes from a register in a chapel, working in haste, and sending a few pages to the parish clerk that were difficult to read.

pinkypinky

Oh I see what you mean, yes possible.

I'll have to go in and look at the records myself. I wonder if they plan to have the digital scans on the new parishes...some have scans and others don't.

slowburner

pinkypinky wrote: »

Oooh thanks guys.

There's also a person called Swan in Glencullen in the phonebook. Tempted to get out some writing paper.

And loads of Lawless's still in Glencullen.

pinkypinky

I have had good success in the past with writing to someone with an unusual name - actually found a connection to them. But if there's lots of lawlesses, that might be more of a challenge! My lawlesses moved to the city before the 1901 census.