wearing jeans in school

jimbo28

guys

started in a new school in Dublin this September. The school has very weak pupils and the results would be quite poor overall. The school has a very professional dress code for the teachers ie: all male teachers must wear a shirt, tie and slacks. I am a practical teacher and to be honest it doesnt work all that well to be wearing slacks or a tie, they are just too light and end up with little rips in them, and that is the reason that i wear jeans into the workshop. I have taught in much better schools than this one, where the emphasis has been on teaching and learning rather than dress code. What do most practical teachers do in your school? by the way i have been teaching a number of years and this is the first time i have seen this enforced for a practical teacher.

your thoughts please.

smull2

Hey!!

I have heard of some schools having a very strict dress code. One of my friends taught in a school were jeans were banned also. There had been a number of incidents with a previous teacher wearing unsuitable and revealing clothes in the classroom and the strict dress code was imposed to stop this happening again. But there has to be some exceptions for practical teachers, I presume the PE teacher in your school doesn't have to wear a shirt, slacks and tie?!?

implausible

Jeans are a no-no in our school as well. The practical teachers just wear the workshop coat over their clothes. It's a DEIS school and some of the kids are quite weak, but why should that take from the professionalism of the the staff? By dressing appropriately, we can lead by example. It's a lot easier to rebuke a student for wearing trainers, a hoodie, short skirt ets, if you are professionally attired.

Besides, if we all started wearing jeans, the Govt might take back our expenses allowance.....;)

rainbowtrout

implausible wrote: »

Jeans are a no-no in our school as well. The practical teachers just wear the workshop coat over their clothes. It's a DEIS school and some of the kids are quite weak, but why should that take from the professionalism of the the staff? By dressing appropriately, we can lead by example. It's a lot easier to rebuke a student for wearing trainers, a hoodie, short skirt ets, if you are professionally attired.

Besides, if we all started wearing jeans, the Govt might take back our expenses allowance.....;)

There's a big difference between wearing a pair of jeans that have tears and rips in them or where the ends aren't all worn and torn from trailing along the ground and wearing a decent pair of jeans with a shirt or jumper. A lot of teachers in my school wear jeans and it doesn't make a difference in class. There's a big difference between wearing a pair of jeans then then completing the casual look with a hoodie and runners. Maybe it happens in other schools but I've never seen it myself.

rebel10

Jeans are a no-no in my school also. Don't have a problem with it and I teach a practical subject. I just wear clothes that I won't worry too much about if I ruin them, but are smart at the same time. Zara is the perfect shop for this.

kollegeknight

Jeans and a polo shirt and steel toe caps for me. (My choice) me wearing jeans doesnt affect grades. Used to wear slacks but they used get destroyed.

looksee

Amazing range of outfits in our place (plc) - jeans, combats, suits on the men, and a very random assortment of skirts, dresses, leggings, jeans and the occasional low slung top on the women. Doesn't seem to make any difference to the quality of the teaching, discipline or atmosphere, all of which are excellent.

Nadser

It's jeans, t-shirt, hoodie and runners for me. What I wear bears no relation to the quality of my teaching.

gaeilgebeo

I don't think this discussion was intended to be choice of clothes VS quality of teaching.
That said, regardless of how brilliant you are as a teacher, professionalism with regard to your choice of clothes for school is important.
Jeans, hoodie and runners to school is not professional in my opinion.

zenno

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

I don't think this discussion was intended to be choice of clothes VS quality of teaching.
That said, regardless of how brilliant you are as a teacher, professionalism with regard to your choice of clothes for school is important.
Jeans, hoodie and runners to school is not professional in my opinion.

A teacher should be able to wear whatever is comfortable for themselves once it is not over the top. but wearing jeans and a tee-shirt and hoodie is no big deal, it is not as if the teacher is going to be teaching with their hood up is it. and also it is not going to affect their teaching either.

the way some of you are talking you would swear the pupils were there to learn about fashion. if the teacher is good at what he/she does then they should be able to wear what they like. principles these day's are off their head with this dress code lark and they are the one's that need further education imo. it's so old-fashioned today for a teacher to be told what to wear. the teacher is there for one thing and that is to teach, and not to be bullied into an old fashioned dress code. primitive school authorities.

implausible

We, as teachers, are very quick to complain about not being taken seriously as professionals. Seeing as we are professionals, in my opinion, we should dress as such. I would not like to see my doctor in a hoodie and I would expect my solicitor not to be dressed casually. It doesn't have anything to do with how good they are at their job, but how professionally they approach it. Nobody has implied that a teacher's clothing affects the quality of his/her teaching, but professional attire gives a professional impression and as I've mentioned before, it gives a good example to the kids. Because I work in a DEIS school, the public impression of our place can be quite negative. Upping the ante in staff attire (and student uniform) helps to counteract that impression.

As a matter of interest, do those of you who wear jeans or hoodies do so at parent-teacher meetings, open evenings and awards nights?

spurious

Smart casual tends to cover it in our place. Hoodies or tracksuits no, but a clean unripped pair of jeans (or slacks/skirt) and a nice shirt/blouse is no problem.

Rosita

zenno wrote: »

A teacher should be able to wear whatever is comfortable for themselves once it is not over the top. but wearing jeans and a tee-shirt and hoodie is no big deal, it is not as if the teacher is going to be teaching with their hood up is it. and also it is not going to affect their teaching either.

the way some of you are talking you would swear the pupils were there to learn about fashion. if the teacher is good at what he/she does then they should be able to wear what they like. principles these day's are off their head with this dress code lark and they are the one's that need further education imo. it's so old-fashioned today for a teacher to be told what to wear. the teacher is there for one thing and that is to teach, and not to be bullied into an old fashioned dress code. primitive school authorities.

But in saying "once it's not over the top" you are undermining a lot of the other points you make. Who decides what's over the top (if you are rejecting the notion of school authorities having a say)? And who's to say that it's not "so old-fashioned today for a teacher to be told what to wear" (one view of yours) if someone decides/suggests that something is unsuitable on the grounds of over-the-topness (which seems to be another view of yours).

You have accepted that there are boundaries in your self-contradictary view that "a teacher should be able to wear whatever is comfortable for themselves once it is not over the top. It seems at odds with this view to admonish "primitive school authorities" for setting the over-the-top bar at a certain level, or to suggest that Principals are "off their heads" for not wanting a situation where teachers could attempt to deliver a lesson dressed like a drag queen or a Nazi officer (which seems absurd of course but if there are no boundaries...).

Everybody here including you seems to accept that there are restrictions - tacit or otherwise - on a teacher's attire. The only debate seems to be what they are from school to school. Fortunately in practice anyway teachers find their own level and basic cop-on prevents it being an issue. But your anything-goes-but-not-really view makes little sense.

theLuggage

Jeans are accepted in our place - and hoodies, though usually its the PE teachers who wear those but have seen few other subjects teachers wear them.

IMO professionalism is about how you carry yourself, your neatness and the way you behave etc. If you're in jeans and hoodies and trying to act like a student then thats not professional. If I'm in jeans and a tshirt one day I feel as professional as I am when Im in trousers/skirt the next day.

I have worn jeans to events like p/t meetings, awards ceremonies etc but must admit they were "dressy" jeans and worn with jacket , nice shoes etc.

I would have no prob with my doctor say wearing jeans as long as I felt they had a professional manner - to me that's whats most important. Oh and I've seen teachers wear smart clothes that are in no way professional

zenno

Rosita wrote: »

But in saying "once it's not over the top" you are undermining a lot of the other points you make. Who decides what's over the top (if you are rejecting the notion of school authorities having a say)? And who's to say that it's not "so old-fashioned today for a teacher to be told what to wear" (one view of yours) if someone decides/suggests that something is unsuitable on the grounds of over-the-topness (which seems to be another view of yours).

You have accepted that there are boundaries in your self-contradictary view that "a teacher should be able to wear whatever is comfortable for themselves once it is not over the top. It seems at odds with this view to admonish "primitive school authorities" for setting the over-the-top bar at a certain level, or to suggest that Principals are "off their heads" for not wanting a situation where teachers could attempt to deliver a lesson dressed like a drag queen or a Nazi officer (which seems absurd of course but if there are no boundaries...).

Everybody here including you seems to accept that there are restrictions - tacit or otherwise - on a teacher's attire. The only debate seems to be what they are from school to school. Fortunately in practice anyway teachers find their own level and basic cop-on prevents it being an issue. But your anything-goes-but-not-really view makes little sense.

In over the top I mean for a male wearing tracksuit bottoms and top and for women wearing a mini skirt and bra only. I cannot see any problem with teachers wearing jeans and a tee-shirt or a hoodie, but you seemed to have rambled on and made a mountain out of a molehill with my previous comment.

Dionysus

I wear jeans now and again. There are far, far, far more serious issues on the mind of our principal than whether a teacher is wearing jeans. In the principal's value system, explicit as well as implicit, it is far more important that the teacher is building positive relationships with all of the students (particularly the many disruptive ones), and if they are then the principal's more than willing to overlook jeans and the like.

I have nothing but respect for these priorities.

Rosita

zenno wrote: »

In over the top I mean for a male wearing tracksuit bottoms and top and for women wearing a mini skirt and bra only. I cannot see any problem with teachers wearing jeans and a tee-shirt or a hoodie, but you seemed to have rambled on and made a mountain out of a molehill with my previous comment.

You have given us some indication of what attire you think is 'over the top' (which is odd considering that you previously wrote "if the teacher is good at what he/she does then they should be able to wear what they like") but still you have completely missed my point. I never asked you to explain what you meant by 'over the top'.

My point was that you seem in your previous post to have rejected all forms of authority on the matter...Principals are "off their head with this dress code lark"...school authorities are "primitive"...a teacher being told what to wear is "so old-fashioned today".

Which raises the question of if there are to be restrictions on certain clothes (and let's not get bogged down in the specifics of what clothes they might be - the principle is the thing) who decides on this if the aforementioned authorities have been dismissed by you for various reasons?

Rosita

Dionysus wrote: »

There are far, far, far more serious issues on the mind of our principal than whether a teacher is wearing jeans. In the principal's value system, explicit as well as implicit, it is far more important that the teacher is building positive relationships with all of the students (particularly the many disruptive ones), and if they are then the principal's more than willing to overlook jeans and the like.

In all fairness, I doubt that there is a school in the country of which this could not be said. I don't think a school having a staff dress code (implied or otherwise) necessarily means that they are taking their eye off the ball in other areas.

Dionysus

Rosita wrote: »

In all fairness, I doubt that there is a school in the country of which this could not be said. I don't think a school having a staff dress code (implied or otherwise) necessarily means that they are taking their eye off the ball in other areas.

Fair enough. I just think the emphasis on teachers' clothes differs in schools depending on the nature of the challenges in that school, as well as other things like the principal's priorities. If, for instance, the principal needs teacher consent to reforms it is likely that things less important in the broader scheme of things like the clothing preference of a grown adult doing a good day's work will not become an issue - all other things being equal, of course.

rebel10

Dionysus wrote: »

Fair enough. I just think the emphasis on teachers' clothes differs in schools depending on the nature of the challenges in that school, as well as other things like the principal's priorities.

Completely disagree with that. You believe that because certain schools have a strict no jeans rule for teachers, the school does not have the same challenges as any other? In our school, we rarely see the principal, he is an extremely busy man. It is usually the teacher who mentors the new teachers that will point out inappropriate clothing amongst the staff.

It is very simple really, my school is in a deprived area, we meet challenges everyday that I am sure most in the country do. A few years ago, it was decided that we, as a staff, would not wear jeans to school. Reasons being we are trying to instil a sense of professionalism amongst the school. In other words, students have to wear uniforms, so we cannot turn around and say to them we are preparing you for the professionalism of the working world when we are showing up to work in jeans (no matter how dressy) and a hoodie. Its hypocritical.

Another reason is there is a fine line between what would be considered acceptable casual wear and inappropriate casual wear. Because there are huge jumps in age in our staffroom, most are in their 50's, three in their 30's and then a large group in their twenties, there are also huge jumps in opinion. What a 25 year old teacher might deem as appropriate casual wear, a 55 year old most certainly won't. You rarely have that problem with professional clothing. Why have grey areas? I believe that once you lay down certain ground rules in terms of attire, then you avoid the complication of having to deal with appropriateness.

Dionysus

rebel10 wrote: »

You believe that because certain schools have a strict no jeans rule for teachers, the school does not have the same challenges as any other?

No, I don't. As I said it is about the priorities which the school has and what values the school leadership wishes to emphasise.

rebel10 wrote: »

A few years ago, it was decided that we, as a staff, would not wear jeans to school. Reasons being we are trying to instil a sense of professionalism amongst the school.

Insisting on a dress code for teachers is not necessary to instil a sense of professionalism in a staff room. That, to my mind, is old thinking. It is, perhaps, one way of instilling professionalism. There are, however, numerous other ways in which professionalism can be instilled. Then again the sole reason I favour school uniforms is because it limits the quotidian fashion competitiveness and relieves parents of financial pressure. Under all circumstances, I object to children being forced to wear ties. Forcing adults to wear them is something worthy of Victorian times.

rebel10 wrote: »

In other words, students have to wear uniforms, so we cannot turn around and say to them we are preparing you for the professionalism of the working world when we are showing up to work in jeans (no matter how dressy) and a hoodie. Its hypocritical.

Going from jeans to a "hoodie" is changing the goalposts of this discussion, don't you think? I'm talking about teachers having a right to wear what they feel comfortable in within reason - smart casual, in other words.

And once again I do not buy this notion that wearing suits and the like is essential to show professionalism. There are many jobs no doubt where this is true at a perception level, but to imply that professionalism cannot exist without such clothing is untrue as numerous writers, artists, academics and so on can attest.

Rosita

Dionysus wrote: »

And once again I do not buy this notion that wearing suits and the like is essential to show professionalism. There are many jobs no doubt where this is true at a perception level, but to imply that professionalism cannot exist without such clothing is untrue as numerous writers, artists, academics and so on can attest.

But talking about people having to wear suits is also moving the goalposts slightly in this situation. Jeans and even hoodies were mentioned as quite acceptable by an earlier contributor so that has framed the discussion in that respect. Most people seem to agree on smart-casual - as opposed to suits -as acceptable but even to say smart-casual is accepting the notion that there is at the very least an implied dress code. Some people seem to be arguing that teachers should be allowed wear "what they feel comfortable in" but then seem to decide that this should be smart-casual, which is a contradiction as what they feel comfortable in might be ripped jeans and a vest.

I'm not sure either if anyone said that professionalism cannot exist without certain clothing. But perception does seem to be important. That's why we brush our hair and shave in the morning. That's why we might dress in a manner that is consider situationally appropriate. Surely the idea of 'professionalism' is itself nothing more than an abstract confluence of perceptions.

I attended an evening course in UCD last year and one of the lecturers came in unshaven and wearing a T-shirt and scruffy jeans constantly. I would be lying if said it did not affect my level of respect for the guy. Admittedly he might more usually be aiming at 18/19 year old day students - who'll probably be dressed in hoodies/tracksuits themselves - and trying to come across as the gas lecturer they'd love to have a pint with but in a more mature group where he was the worst dressed in the room - but the one to who presumably was demanding most 'respect' - I thought it looked bad.

I also saw him address a group (non-students) on a topic outside of college a few years ago and he looked like he'd slept in his clothes. I thought it showed a lack of respect for the audience especially when it was not a student group.

I'm not sure if "professionalism cannot exist" without a certain type of clothing but it is arguable that its perception (and as I have said to a large extent professionalism is perception) might be lessened by the manner of dress. It is difficult with a straight face have students in uniform and teachers not at least with a certain dress code.

rebel10

Dionysus wrote: »

No, I don't. As I said it is about the priorities which the school has and what values the school leadership wishes to emphasise.

But you see the clothes we wear in school is not a priority, we simply have agreed to avoid dressing too casually. Not difficult, and is rarely an issue. The only time it has become an issue is when a new teacher is not aware of the rule and wears a pair of jeans. They are generally just told casually by the mentor and that is the end of that.

Dionysus wrote: »

Insisting on a dress code for teachers is not necessary to instil a sense of professionalism in a staff room. That, to my mind, is old thinking. It is, perhaps, one way of instilling professionalism. There are, however, numerous other ways in which professionalism can be instilled. Then again the sole reason I favour school uniforms is because it limits the quotidian fashion competitiveness and relieves parents of financial pressure. Under all circumstances, I object to children being forced to wear ties. Forcing adults to wear them is something worthy of Victorian times.

As such it isn't a dress code. It is just telling us that jeans aren't allowed. Every school has a dress code in some shape or form. You couldn't turn up to school in some revealing outfit, there are boundaries in every school. I agree with the fact that uniforms relieve financial and social pressures. I don't think telling someone they have to wear a tie in this day and age is something worthy of Victorian times. Look around you, being made wear a tie to work is not uncommon, nor is it seen as something which is outdated.

Dionysus wrote: »

Going from jeans to a "hoodie" is changing the goalposts of this discussion, don't you think? I'm talking about teachers having a right to wear what they feel comfortable in within reason - smart casual, in other words.

And once again I do not buy this notion that wearing suits and the like is essential to show professionalism. There are many jobs no doubt where this is true at a perception level, but to imply that professionalism cannot exist without such clothing is untrue as numerous writers, artists, academics and so on can attest.

As another poster pointed out, going from smart wear to suits is also changing the goalposts of the discussion. The reason I brought up hoodies was because it was already pointed out that plenty of teachers wear them.
I feel very comfortable in a pair of chinos and a jumper/top. I also feel very comfortable in a skirt. My comfort isn't being restricted. We don't wear suits in our school, some choose to do, but that is entirely up to the individual. I didn't imply that professionalism cannot exist without this type of clothing. It is completely up to the individual teacher to behave/dress in a manner which is professional.

E.T.

A lot depends on the level and class you work with. Ideally with infants, a tracksuit would be the most comfortable and practical thing for me to wear, but I would feel way too casual. I love wearing nice clothes and outfits, but a lot of them aren't practical when I spend a lot of the day sitting on the floor for group work, and cleaning up messes (food, toilet accidents, vomit etc). I don't see anything wrong with jeans as long as they're smart and not scruffy looking.

looksee

I wear jeans because I teach a practical subject, but almost without noticing I do it, if there is a day of interviewing or similar non-coalface activity, I tend to dress rather more formally.

I find it far more annoying to see people (women) come in dressed in what I would consider 'wedding suits' and what they obviously consider 'smart'

doc_17

The practical teachers in our place wear jeans. Someone posted earlier asking would you expect to see a solicitor wearing anything other than professional clothes which was a good point.

But how many carpenters,plumbers or electricians turn up wearing a suit? Everybody should dress appropriately and to me jeans in a practical is entirely acceptable.

freire

I find this idea that a suit somehow confers you with an aura of professionalism a tad farcical.

In my experience kids are the first to see past clothes and into the personality, ability and intentions of a teacher.

I think there are greater and more pressing issues. If you're clean, dressed tidily and motivate your students, the absence of a suit is a non-issue.

It reminds me of the furore about Luke Flanagan and Mick Wallace not wearing a suit in the Dail.

rebel10

freire wrote: »

I find this idea that a suit somehow confers you with an aura of professionalism a tad farcical.

In my experience kids are the first to see past clothes and into the personality, ability and intentions of a teacher.

I think there are greater and more pressing issues. If you're clean, dressed tidily and motivate your students, the absence of a suit is a non-issue.

It reminds me of the furore about Luke Flanagan and Mick Wallace not wearing a suit in the Dail.

Who said anything about wearing suits? There are other options if jeans are not allowed! I usually wear a pair of Zara/H&M trousers or a skirt. Not overly formal, but comfortable. I also teach a practical subject.

freire

My apologies. It was the 'shirt, tie and slacks' in the opening post led to my post. Nobody in my school dresses this way. It's a grand school, well managed with a good academic record and discipline issues are not as bad as one might expect.

I'm all for comfort and 'smart casual' or whatever you want to wear, within reason. I

If you're well presented I don't believe a shirt and tie will make you appear more professional.

Just my life experience informing my opinion.