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Rental Property: No Refund

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  • 08-10-2011 1:32pm
    #1
    The Guv
    Registered Users Posts: 34 ✭


    Hi all, quick question. My sister rented a property recently while she was away for college. She gave a deposit but never signed any contract. She later moved out but when looking for her deposit back the landlord refused stating that she had to give 4 weeks notice. When she pointed out that she never signed a contract, he said that she should have known that she had to give the notice? Anyone have any opinion or any experience in a similar matter?


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    #2
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    She didn't give any notice at all?

    It's pretty standard to give notice, she's not going to see a cent of that money and the LL was right to keep it, she should have known better tbh.


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    #3
    The Lovely Muffin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,595 ✭✭✭The Lovely Muffin


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    She didn't give any notice at all?

    It's pretty standard to give notice, she's not going to see a cent of that money and the LL was right to keep it, she should have known better tbh.
    +1.

    To be honest, it's basic knowledge to give a landlord notice that you are moving out, 30 days notice is usually the norm.

    Your sister is 100% in the wrong, not the landlord.

    That said, did the landlord register the tenancy with PRTB? If he didn't then your sister could threaten to report him and that may make him give the deposit back.

    Landlords are legally required to register tenancies with PRTB.


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    #4
    dudara
    Registered Users Posts: 33,518 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    Moved to Accomodation & Property

    dudara


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    #5
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Purple_Bobbin wrote: »
    +1.

    To be honest, it's basic knowledge to give a landlord notice that you are moving out, 30 days notice is usually the norm.

    Your sister is 100% in the wrong, not the landlord.

    That said, did the landlord register the tenancy with PRTB? If he didn't then your sister could threaten to report him and that may make him give the deposit back.

    Landlords are legally required to register tenancies with PRTB.

    4 weeks notice is indeed the norm- if there were a contract signed, it may even tie the tenant into a set period of time (normally the initial 6 month period)- however there are rules regarding reassigning the lease that a landlord would have to allow.

    With respect of whether or not the tenancy is registered- the landlord has a 1 month window from the commencement of the tenancy, in which to register the tenancy. If you move out within this time frame and the tenancy isn't registered- it means absolutely nothing whatsoever.

    A case could be lodged with the PRTB for non-return of the deposit- however the landlord would be within his/her rights to lodge a counter case for lack of notice to vacate the tenancy.

    Legally the landlord *cannot* use the deposit in lieu of rent, unless there is agreement on the part of both people- in situations such as the one detailed above- it really may be the case that the easiest option on everyone is to simply accept that the deposit be used in lieu of valid notice on the part of the tenant.


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    #6
    rcdk1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 558 ✭✭✭rcdk1


    Just to muddy the waters........
    If she's a student then she almost certainly entered into a Fixed Term Tenancy (i.e. a 9 month lease). There does not have to be a written lease. Under a Fixed Term Tenancy she's not entitled to break the tenancy unless the landlord fails to meet his obligations or she assigns the tenancy to another person (i.e. she finds a replacement tenant). If the landlord refuses to assign the tenancy, she (the tenant) can then terminate the tenancy.

    Some relevant extracts from this guidance document on the PRTB website (http://public.prtb.ie/DownloadDocs/Termination%20of%20FT.pdf):
    ......
    Usually, the terms of a fixed term tenancy are contained in a lease agreement. A written lease agreement is not necessary however, for a fixed term tenancy to exist, as the Act provides that a fixed term tenancy may also be oral or implied.
    .....

    Similarly, a tenant can only terminate a fixed term tenancy where there the landlord has been in breach of his or her obligations. In addition however, where the landlord has refused consent to an assignment or sub-let, the tenant can also terminate the tenancy, in accordance with Section 186.
    Luckily for your sister the landlord seems so be unaware of this, otherwise he could (theoretically) pursue her for rent for the full term of the tenancy.

    Regardless of what I've posted above, on one hand your sister should have given the landlord reasonable notice (4 weeks being the norm) to allow him to get another tenant. On the other, the lack of a written lease (again in spite of what I've written above) would suggest that the landlord is not registered with the PRTB and therefore not tax compliant.


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    #7
    rcdk1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 558 ✭✭✭rcdk1


    smccarrick wrote: »
    Legally the landlord *cannot* use the deposit in lieu of rent, unless there is agreement on the part of both people- in situations such as the one detailed above- it really may be the case that the easiest option on everyone is to simply accept that the deposit be used in lieu of valid notice on the part of the tenant.
    Hi smccarrick,
    could you clarify this?


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    #8
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    rcdk1 wrote: »
    Hi smccarrick,
    could you clarify this?

    Sure-

    Article 12 of the 2004 Residential Tenancies Act states that a landlord should return or repay any deposit promptly subject to subsection 4 of the Article- which in turn states when a deposit may be forfeit-

    (i) if the payment of rent and the amount of rent that is in arrears is equal to or greater than the amount of the deposit, or

    (ii) restoration of damage to the property above normal wear and tear is equal to or greater than the deposit

    (iii) if- when the tenant requests his or her deposit back, there is at that point in time rent in arrears, or the costs associated with retrieving rent due are less than or equal to the deposit.

    The deposit cannot be used in lieu of rent- unless there is prior agreement on the part of both parties that this is acceptable. Where there is a default in the lease- outside of any such agreement, and there is rent due- on the vacation of the tenancy, any such arrears- can be deducted up to the whole of the deposit- and the tenant pursued through the PRTB and/or courts to make good the difference.

    A breach of contract- is not a normal transaction in a landlord/tenant relationship however, and in a circumstance such as this- unless there were specific arrears due when the deposit return was requested- its a tough cookie case- you need to go to the PRTB.........


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    #9
    rcdk1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 558 ✭✭✭rcdk1


    smccarrick wrote: »
    Legally the landlord *cannot* use the deposit in lieu of rent, unless there is agreement on the part of both people
    Sorry to be pedantic but should the above not read either:
    • Legally the landlord *cannot be forced* to use the deposit in lieu of rent
      or
    • Legally the tenant *cannot* use the deposit in lieu of rent


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