#Occupy Ireland

mickydoomsux

St.Spodo wrote: »

They are demanding that the IMF and ECB stay out of Irish affairs.

Ah right, so they want the country to go completely and utterly broke.

Smart bunch of folks.

Micky Dolenz

Einhard wrote: »

You think it's sickening that people who view society's lot with a degree of contentment therefore don't protest about it? What an odd notion. It's more of the same browbeat of people purely because they don't share your views, and protest accordingly. Isn't that the height of arrogance? Isn't it sickening to attack people because they have the temerity not to subject themselves to your own

Who's attacking anyone?

All people moan. But there are people who moan and try and change things and people who just moan.

Da_Doc

baaaa wrote: »

Not really arsed finding them for someone who doesn't even know what the live register measures tbh,they're out there somewhere.

The Live Register is not designed to measure unemployment. It includes
part-time workers (those who work up to three days a week), seasonal and casual
workers entitled to Jobseeker’s Benefit or Allowance. Unemployment is
measured by the Quarterly National Household Survey and the latest estimated

number of persons unemployed as of the second quarter of 2011 was 304,500.

^^^^^^
from the same CSO report that mickydoomsux posted earlier in thread. Therefore you are wrong. Wouldnt have bothered pointing it out except for your smarmy superior attitue throughout the whole thread.

Son Of A Vidic

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

so you don't like people being mean and saying nasty things to people who protest pointlessly, yet you are willing to make sweeping generalisations about people who are critical of them?

I don't recall my use of the words 'mean' or 'nasty' in any of my posts. This is what I said.....

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

I merely support the right of you, me and anyone to get up and raise a dissenting voice. And hopefully to be able to do so without the usual verbal diarrhoea from those who never get off their cynical, judgmental, pontificating arsés.

If some people are persistently complaining and dissatisfied, yet criticise those who act of such sentiments. Then these people in my eyes are absolute muppets.

Now if someone is quite content with their lot and happy with the state of the country. They are then entitled to criticise who they want, because at least such people could certainly not be accused of hypocrisy.

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

What about the people who get up and raise a dissenting voice earlier this year by VOTING and then being critical of these occupy protests? Is that okay by you?

A lot of people in Roscommon voted for Fine Gael because of Enda's promises to the hospital. Do you think they would vote for them now after the U-turn?
A lot of people thought Noonan talked the good talk in opposition. Yet in government he has demonstrated none of the promised he showed in opposition. So are you now speaking for this dissenting group of people? Because I can only merely speak for myself.

Einhard

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Who's attacking anyone?

All people moan. But there are people who moan and try and change things and people who just moan.

I think calling people spineless, cowardly, beaten, subjugated, and all the references to sheep and herd mentality amounts to an attack on people. Just as calling a protestor a hippy or whatever amounts to an attack on them.

I moan myself- and then voted in the recent General Election. For some though, that's not a valid means to effect change. Unless your marching or protesting in support of an ill-defined, ludicrously vague platform, you're part of the problem- at least that seems to be the view of some around here.

Einhard

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

A lot of people in Roscommon voted for Fine Gael because of Enda's promises to the hospital. Do you think they would vote for them now after the U-turn?
A lot of people thought Noonan talked the good talk in opposition. Yet in government he has demonstrated none of the promised he showed in opposition. So are you now speaking for this dissenting group of people? Because I can only merely speak for myself.

In the most recent opinion poll, FG had 35% support, which is approximately what they received in the GE. So it would seem that those who voted for them are, on the whole, satisfied with their performance.

Micky Dolenz

Einhard wrote: »

I think calling people spineless, cowardly, beaten, subjugated, and all the references to sheep and herd mentality amounts to an attack on people. Just as calling a protestor a hippy or whatever amounts to an attack on them.

I moan myself- and then voted in the recent General Election. For some though, that's not a valid means to effect change. Unless your marching or protesting in support of an ill-defined, ludicrously vague platform, you're part of the problem- at least that seems to be the view of some around here.

I wasn't aware I used those words.

Do you believe voting in a new government is enough to bring around real change and your responsibility as a citizen ends there?

Einhard

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I wasn't aware I used those words.

You didn't. But others did. You did claim though to be sickened by people who don't feel the need to protest or make a scene. Believing that, in general, things are pretty good, isn't a moral failing, particularly a "sickening" one.

Do you believe voting in a new government is enough to bring around real change and your responsibility as a citizen ends there?

Of course not. And I fully support those who wish to protest. What I don't support though is the type of bully boy tactics whereby those who happen not to support a particular view are denigrated, and their refusal to march in support of someone else's cause "sickening".

I don't denigrate the protestors or those who decide it's not for them. I can't say the same for a lot of people on this thread though.

megaten

partyatmygaff wrote: »

I just had a look at the rest of Occupy Wall Street's list of demands. It looks as if it was written by a college student who had a glance at a Wikipedia article on economics who then decided on a whim to write out a list of poorly thought-out and poorly expressed list of unreasonable demands. I don't see a protest of that standard to have much chance of success.

Funny, you missed the 'proposed' bit and the note that it was just a post by a random forum user. If you posted up a list of demands here on after hours it's hardly be considered boards.ie official stance.
Anyways, that's why it so important that normal people support events like this, so that particular kind of gob****e gets drowned out.

novarock

None of us asked you to protest for us, The rest of us will get out of bed tomorrow morning and go to work, continue paying our taxes and getting on with our lives. I have a feeling that the protestors dont understand what they are really protesting about. Saying we shouldnt privatise our resources etc, is a very broad, sweeping statement.

We are in the IMF now, you could have people setting themselves on fire in the banks and it wont change it. We voted in our new government, and my opinion, along with a lot of the other 'sheep' would be that they are doing a good job cleaning up the mess that we got ourselves in to. Dont forget, it was a mixture of Banks, Politicians, Developers, and Irish people that got us in to this situation, not just the banks.

If you could show me what you are really protesting against, and back it up with proper facts, then I will hear you out. If you and your dreadlocked hemp wearing friends set up a tent in the middle of a city centre square with bongos and megaphones, you will anger everyone else. That is not how you do it. They would have been better off to give those tents to the homeless and let everyone else go about their business.

books4sale

Action speak louder than words!

First sign of action on Dame St from the boys in blue and this shower of woolies be running for the Green.

Most smart protesters got their heads down in the long grass not stuck above the trenches waitin for it to be blown off.

Ya ever hear a gureilla warfare wooly?

Nah didn't think, got yer head stuck in dem books too long. :cool:

Alter-Ego

Where did all the teenage emo's and goths go yesterday when the crusty's displaced them?

Micky Dolenz

Einhard wrote: »

You didn't. But others did. You did claim though to be sickened by people who don't feel the need to protest or make a scene. Believing that, in general, things are pretty good, isn't a moral failing, particularly a "sickening" one.



Of course not. And I fully support those who wish to protest. What I don't support though is the type of bully boy tactics whereby those who happen not to support a particular view are denigrated, and their refusal to march in support of someone else's cause "sickening".

I don't denigrate the protestors or those who decide it's not for them. I can't say the same for a lot of people on this thread though.

You are misrepresenting what I said and meant. You insist on clinging on to one word and seem to be taking it personally, now that's odd.

I'll stand over what I said. We live in an anti protest society and our culture breeds a stand alone approach to most things. As a people some solidarity wouldn't go astray.

LaFlammeRouge

I hope the council spray them out of it. Dirty, smelly hippies.

My name is URL

books4sale wrote: »

Action speak louder than words!

First sign of action on Dame St from the boys in blue and this shower of woolies be running for the Green.

Most smart protesters got their heads down in the long grass not stuck above the trenches waitin for it to be blown off.

Ya ever hear a gureilla warfare wooly?

Nah didn't think, got yer head stuck in dem books too long. :cool:

What are you shiting on about?

books4sale

^^^^Home to listen to the Cure or whatever their into these days:D

Son Of A Vidic

Einhard wrote: »

It's ironic that it's often those who make reference to that subjugation that seek most to subjugate others to their own views and ideologies.

Has my expression of displeasure toward our history of Imperialist subjugation upset you? Where also did I express my desire to subjugate others?

Again however, we have someone who can't or won't read posts correctly. Where did I espouse any 'ideology'? Christ! the power of the human imagination never ceases to amaze me.

Einhard wrote: »

Well this puts a different slant on things. So you agree that those who have an issue with such protests, and don't partake in them, are not necessarily spineless, sheep-like etc?

So were you assuming I didn't agree? This is what I made clear for another in this thread earlier....

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

If some people are persistently complaining and dissatisfied, yet criticise those who act on such sentiments. Then these people in my eyes are absolute muppets.

Now if someone is quite content with their lot and happy with the state of the country. They are then entitled to criticise who they want, because at least such people could certainly not be accused of hypocrisy.

Can you understand the above? Surely that it is not open to misinterpretation?

books4sale

My name is URL wrote: »

What are you shiting on about?

:D
Good man yerself. Can a paddy out here in Asia not entertain himself for a while with the goings on at home.

Spacedog

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Ah right, so they want the country to go completely and utterly broke.

Smart bunch of folks.

Aren't they,

Better to declare bankrupsy than having every man woman and child in the country 25K in the red.

True we'll have no line of credit, but it's no bad thing for a nation to live within it's means, so long as it's fair and just.

"never a lender of borrower be." - My Gran.

Da_Doc

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

It's sad we live in such an anti-protest society. No matter what the issue, people will bitch how it inconveniences their everyday lives.

We have a sickening "shur I'm grand" culture.

No, as Einhard already stated quite eloquently just because people dont agree with the protest it doesnt mean they are anti protests it may just means they dont agree with your particular cause. There are many out protesting regularly regarding the state of the healthcare system an lack of services locally, people organise marches and sign petitions in order to highlight their cause.

Personally I say fair play to any peaceful protesters who go out and make their voices heard without hasselling people who go about their business. If I dont agree with them I wont join them or sign their petition.

I cant speak for other people but I dont see a need for huge change in the overall political or economic system. We do need to ensure the laws and regulations which are already in place are implemented with more vigour than was previously. We also need to ensure that those at the top of society (the wealthy, the government, etc) act ethically and morally. I plan to do this with my vote.

I voted for fine gael this year and I believe they are doing quite a good job under the circumstances. This is why I am not out protesting with the occupy crowd, not because I am anti-protest.

sdanseo

I admire what these guys stand for and what they're trying to do. However while actions may speak louder than words, the people doing this are nothing short of deluded if they think it will have any effect. Governments don't listen to swathes of people moaning in the street. I respect any peaceful gathering, and will continue to do so - unless it gets out of hand.

I labelled the student protesters as hippies, getting in the way of the smooth running of the city and generally causing a disruptive ruccus and a headache for the Gardaí for no apparent constructive reason. And I will say the same of this if it spills over into similar anarchy. It won't work on this scale. You either overthrow the government completely or do nothing at all, aiming at something in between never has any worthwhile effect.

The problem at the root of what these guys are protesting is real and deep-rooted and while I totally agree with them that it needs changing and go further to say the political and financial system worldwide needs total and utter reform - I'm not going to freeze my bollocks off "occupying" Dame St when it won't move me or anyone else any closer to that aim.

Best of luck to them.

partyatmygaff

megaten wrote: »

Funny, you missed the 'proposed' bit and the note that it was just a post by a random forum user. If you posted up a list of demands here on after hours it's hardly be considered boards.ie official stance.
Anyways, that's why it so important that normal people support events like this, so that particular kind of gob****e gets drowned out.

That admin note wasn't there when I first read it. I Googled for "Occupy Wall Street list of demands" and got that as a result. No matter. It's even worse than I thought.

Their logo is a fist and their subtitle is "The resistance continues..." and they claim to have "no official list of demands". Definitely the tell-tale signs of a meaningful protest...

megaten

sdeire wrote: »

I admire what these guys stand for and what they're trying to do. However while actions may speak louder than words, the people doing this are nothing short of deluded if they think it will have any effect. Governments don't listen to swathes of people moaning in the street. I respect any peaceful gathering, and will continue to do so - unless it gets out of hand.

It works fairly well for the farmers and OAP.

Sir Gallagher

Passed by there last night. It was like a Blackboard Jungle reunion.

books4sale

megaten wrote: »

It works fairly well for the farmers and OAP.

That's cause they bring on da noise with tractors n sirens.

OAP's got sticks and zimmers, all armed up like dem romans.

Woolys bring nothing ...maybe a bong at best.

Da_Doc

books4sale wrote: »

That's cause they bring on da noise with tractors n sirens.

OAP's got sticks and zimmers, all armed up like dem romans.

Woolys bring nothing ...maybe a bong at best.

Nah it works because the government will in general listen to popular opinion, because they know that if they dont they wont be in government all that long.

OAPs and farmers have huge voting power and in turn up on voting day in large numbers. Thats how democracy works. Also once the government is in power it doesnt mean it will remain there for the full term, if they are bringing in hugely unpopular policies then the people will let their local TDs know in no uncertain terms that this will not stand. This is how FF bit the dust early. Democracy is a great thing.

I could be wrong but I would imagine that this current protest will go nowhere and that it will not gererate enough support to get the government to listen. As I said already, fair play to them for trying.

Killer Pigeon

My name is URL wrote: »

Always the same crap.. nobody has "taken over" the protest. If members of the SWP weren't there then people would blame another group for doing the same. "Oh, I agree with the idea behind the protests, just not with the *insert pigeon-holed group* that happen to have showed up on the day."

It makes no sense.. if you agree with the sentiment of the protest, then there's no need to dismiss it just because some group you don't share ideals with are present.

The fact is, and I myself have experience of this in the past, groups like the SWP tend to gravitate to these sort of protests and end up spouting their own nonsense and flying their own slogans, which deviate completely away from the original theme of the protest. It's unfortunate.

Eric Cartman

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

The fact is, and I myself have experience of this in the past, groups like the SWP tend to gravitate to these sort of protests and end up spouting their own nonsense and flying their own slogans, which deviate completely away from the original theme of the protest. It's unfortunate.

very true, any protest, even one with a legitimate message instantly becomes pointless as soon as the SWP, ULA, Animal rights nuts etc... show up

My name is URL

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

The fact is, and I myself have experience of this in the past, groups like the SWP tend to gravitate to these sort of protests and end up spouting their own nonsense and flying their own slogans, which deviate completely away from the original theme of the protest. It's unfortunate.

That's it though, they are spouting their own message.. it doesn't have to mean that by being there you tacitly share their views or ultimate goals. In the US protests there are many disparate groups present. The original theme of the protest remains intact regardless of who latches on to it. People are pissed at what is happening at the minute.. that's why they are protesting, and that's the whole point in protesting.. it's not even bringing alternatives to the table, that's up to politicians. It's about demonstrating to those with the power to bring about change; that people actually want to see a change.

fontanalis

My name is URL wrote: »

That's it though, they are spouting their own message.. it doesn't have to mean that by being there you tacitly share their views or ultimate goals. In the US protests there are many disparate groups present. The original theme of the protest remains intact regardless of who latches on to it. People are pissed at what is happening at the minute.. that's why they are protesting, and that's the whole point in protesting.. it's not even bringing alternatives to the table, that's up to politicians. It's about demonstrating to those with the power to bring about change; that people actually want to see a change.

Unfortunately the idea of change seems to change come election time; it's going to take a generation of two before the parochialism is gotten rid of. I guarantee there are people who come from a Fianna Fail House, will vote for him because I liked his father, he helped me with planning permission etc watching the protests tut tutting to themselves about young people etc
In order for these protests to have any meaningful impact they need to have a coherent message and need to distance themselves from nonsense far left groups.

fontanalis

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

Passed by there last night. It was like a Blackboard Jungle reunion.

Ard Scoil Aris?

Gman1

Daithi 1 wrote: »

I hope they keep it up.

I hate the Irish attitude to protesting. Everyone who protests is looked down on, and called "hippies" etc.. There is a wide range of people there, with different backgrounds.

Something has to be done now, we are going to be savaged in the next budget.

fontanalis

Gman1 wrote: »

I hope they keep it up.

I hate the Irish attitude to protesting. Everyone who protests is looked down on, and called "hippies" etc.. There is a wide range of people there, with different backgrounds.

Something has to be done now, we are going to be savaged in the next budget.

What's the alternative, unfortunately many Irish people want things but don't want to pay for them!
I hope these protest have an impact but I doubt it. If I'm proven wrong I'll come back and eat my words gladly.

The Waltzing Consumer

Gman1 wrote: »

I hope they keep it up.

I hate the Irish attitude to protesting. Everyone who protests is looked down on, and called "hippies" etc.. There is a wide range of people there, with different backgrounds.

Something has to be done now, we are going to be savaged in the next budget.

You have a good point with the protesting attitude of the Irish. My problem with it is the majority of protests end up being the same one group with different front names, so that's the SWP. I attended a couple years ago and went to meetings, but I just thought it was like a cult.

One of the other problems I have with protests is actually what you have written in the last sentence, realism. the wording is always so apocalypitic when in reality, it is different. People have been spouting the "we're doomed" thing since the recession started, with imagery of riots breaking out everywhere, greek style protests, people dying on the streets from hunger because of their tiny social welfare cut. My main point is that these groups use very emotive language which seems to always be wrong in its prediction so they lose credibility.

Edit: This emotive method means they get a lot of younger people who are only starting to think about politics, but after a while the vast majority realise how fantasy-based these groups are and move on, but you will get a few nuts who will stay with them no matter what which is as dangerous as the die-hard FF, Church members or any groups that will ignore the reality out of blind devotion.

steve9859

Gman1 wrote: »

Something has to be done now, we are going to be savaged in the next budget.

We pay for the services and welfare that we want as a society, or we don't pay and accept the cuts to bring them back to sustainable levels. There are your options. No amount of protesting will change a fact. It is because of the IMF that we are able to try to correct the situation gradually.

So I do not agree with your protests. It is a thought out stance, and doesn't make me a sheep or someone who should 'sicken' others on this thread.

Do what you like - its your right - but try not to get in my way when I'm on my way to work!

LaFlammeRouge

Gman1 wrote: »

Something has to be done now, we are going to be savaged in the next budget.

God help us if ULA or Sinn Fein get into power. Is that the goal of the #occupydamestreet? Ireland is recovering. We will soon be out of the IMF and control of our destiny. The union leaders that will speak at Dame Street want to keep the status quo of inflated wages, croynism and back handers.

Gman1

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

My main point is that these groups use very emotive language which seems to always be wrong in its prediction so they lose credibility.

I know what you mean. I was previously protesting over the bus cuts, and SWP came in and took over the protest with their banners and flags.
The emotive language is just used to get people thinking about the issues and get them to protest. Its quite difficult to get Irish people to protest.

fontanalis wrote: »

What's the alternative, unfortunately many Irish people want things but don't want to pay for them!
I hope these protest have an impact but I doubt it. If I'm proven wrong I'll come back and eat my words gladly.

One alternative is to follow Iceland's example. We don't have to suffer the austerity measures.Take a look here, it talks about the different approaches that Iceland took, and they are no longer in a financial crisis.

fontanalis

Gman1 wrote: »

I know what you mean. I was previously protesting over the bus cuts, and SWP came in and took over the protest with their banners and flags.
The emotive language is just used to get people thinking about the issues and get them to protest. Its quite difficult to get Irish people to protest.



One alternative is to follow Iceland's example. We don't have to suffer the austerity measures.Take a look here, it talks about the different approaches that Iceland took, and they are no longer in a financial crisis.

I would have been happy to seen Iceland's approach being took but that opportunity is long gone.

fontanalis

LaFlammeRouge wrote: »

God help us if ULA or Sinn Fein get into power. Is that the goal of the #occupydamestreet? Ireland is recovering. We will soon be out of the IMF and control of our destiny. The union leaders that will speak at Dame Street want to keep the status quo of inflated wages, croynism and back handers.

Isn't that what caused the mess?

Gman1

steve9859 wrote: »

We pay for the services and welfare that we want as a society, or we don't pay and accept the cuts to bring them back to sustainable levels. There are your options. No amount of protesting will change a fact. It is because of the IMF that we are able to try to correct the situation gradually.

So I do not agree with your protests. It is a thought out stance, and doesn't make me a sheep or someone who should 'sicken' others on this thread.

Do what you like - its your right - but try not to get in my way when I'm on my way to work!

I dont mind paying taxes for services and welfare. I would just like them to spend it wisely.

I'd prefer not to bail out the banks. Take a look at Iceland. They choose not to bail out the banks, and default. Their economy is fine now.

fontanalis

Gman1 wrote: »

I dont mind paying taxes for services and welfare. I would just like them to spend it wisely.

I'd prefer not to bail out the banks. Take a look at Iceland. They choose not to bail out the banks, and default. Their economy is fine now.

And let's hope in every election people remember who bailed out the Irish banks. Remember Brian Lenihan got re-elected.

The Waltzing Consumer

Gman1 wrote: »

One alternative is to follow Iceland's example. We don't have to suffer the austerity measures.Take a look here, it talks about the different approaches that Iceland took, and they are no longer in a financial crisis.

That choice was taken in 2008 I am afraid, can't do it now. Iceland is getting better but they are not out of the woods yet and would still be considered to be in a financial crisis.

There is no quick solution, every decision would have its consequences and I am sorry, but I cannot listen to a guy who has never worked, who smokes weed and wears african jumpers, has no educational or professional training in economics, business or government, and thinks he is so right and correct and that their way is some magical wand which will make ireland super rich in the blink of an eye and solve all our problems. It does not work that way.

The Waltzing Consumer

Gman1 wrote: »

Take a look at Iceland. They choose not to bail out the banks, and default. Their economy is fine now.

No it is not
Where are you getting this from?

OctavarIan

Iceland's ability to weather the financial storm was directly linked to an extraordinary devaluation of their currency. We are in the euro and thus could never have pulled off what Iceland did.

Gman1

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

No it is not
Where are you getting this from?

Well its better than what it would be if they have of imposed austerity measures.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/iceland-the-broken-economy-that-got-out-of-jail-2349905.html

fontanalis

Gman1 wrote: »

Well its better than what it would be if they have of imposed austerity measures.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/iceland-the-broken-economy-that-got-out-of-jail-2349905.html

When you have no money (like Ireland) you have to be austeric, literally there was no money. Where was it going to come from?

steve9859

Gman1 wrote: »

I dont mind paying taxes for services and welfare. I would just like them to spend it wisely.

I'd prefer not to bail out the banks. Take a look at Iceland. They choose not to bail out the banks, and default. Their economy is fine now.

People talk about Argentina too, growing consistently for the last number of years after defaulting and devaluing. And go on to suggest that if we defaulted we could follow a similar path. What is conveniently forgotten is that post default, there was carnage. I think you should be a little more careful what you wish for


Poverty in Argentina (Wikipedia)
Date of measurement Extreme poverty Under poverty line
May 2001 11.6% 35.9%
October 2001 13.6% 38.3%
May 2002 24.8% 53.0%
October 2002 27.5% 57.5%
May 2003 26.3% 54.7%

The Waltzing Consumer

Gman1 wrote: »

Well its better than what it would be if they have of imposed austerity measures.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/iceland-the-broken-economy-that-got-out-of-jail-2349905.html

Iceland did have austerity measures.

mehfesto

Big drop in numbers today - although it was pretty chilly and there were more tents that last night. Could all have been inside. They look better stocked now too - bottles of water and grub everywhere. Security are marked out in hi-vis vest n'all now.

Could last the week.

Daithi 1

mehfesto wrote: »

Big drop in numbers today - although it was pretty chilly and there were more tents that last night. Could all have been inside. They look better stocked now too - bottles of water and grub everywhere. Security are marked out in hi-vis vest n'all now.

Could last the week.

Numbers hopefully will pick up as it gets more media attention.

Some police brutality could come in handy too !