The End of Dutch Tolerance?

SWL

djpbarry wrote: »

But that’s generally how it works at the moment in Ireland. Employers can only hire a non-EU citizen if they can’t fill the position with an EU national. If anything, restrictions on non-EU nationals working in Ireland are too stringent.

No it does not work like that in Ireland - on paper maybe at a push

SWL

djpbarry wrote: »

I don’t get this argument – racism exists therefore people haven’t integrated?

So the definition of “integration” varies depending on the race of the subject?
I could also have used the example of Irish people in the US. Or Poles in the US. Or Italians in the US.

Yes integration does depend on the race of the "subject" clearly you are not observing your environment in the UK.

Yes you could have used the Irish in the US etc. - but you didn't you used the Irish in the UK which I pointed out was a useless argument. Also as I am sure you are aware in history Irish people have only been accepted in the UK over the last 15 years, despite being culturally very similar.

It Is of no coincidence that NZ and AUS recruit Irish skilled labour to work in their countries because culturally they are similar and as a result easier to integrate; have the same values in life as opposed to recruiting in France, Spain and Africa- see the recent NZ recruitment drive for Irish and UK construction professionals as a good example.

woodoo

SWL wrote: »

Yes integration does depend on the race of the "subject" clearly you are not observing your environment in the UK.

Yes you could have used the Irish in the US etc. - but you didn't you used the Irish in the UK which I pointed out was a useless argument. Also as I am sure you are aware in history Irish people have only been accepted in the UK over the last 15 years, despite being culturally very similar.

It Is of no coincidence that NZ and AUS recruit Irish skilled labour to work in their countries because culturally they are similar and as a result easier to integrate; have the same values in life as opposed to recruiting in France, Spain and Africa- see the recent NZ recruitment drive for Irish and UK construction professionals as a good example.

Because within one generation they are virtually indistinguishable from your average Aussie or Kiwi.

BluntGuy

A Primal Nut wrote: »

That said, immigration needs to be sustainable. I think if the Dutch want to keep Rotterdam mostly Dutch or the Irish want to keep Dublin mostly Irish I think we should be entitled to think like that without being called racists. It's the character of the country and I think all countries should be entitled to keep that character.

Unfortunately, you are not entitled, because you are being racists. Sorry if that makes you uncomfortable, but it's true. If you elect to divide people into (arbitrary) "races" and show favour to one "race" over another on the basis of race/ethnicity, then that is exactly the term that applies. It can be dressed up to sound nicer but that's ultimately what it is I'm afraid.

Immigration should change to being out of necessity - what skills are required, etc, rather than just letting random people in.

Should we also get rid of people we don't need then?

As for your analogy of Irish people integrating into UK society – firstly they are both the same race, secondly I am sure you are aware of your own countries history - the UK and Ireland let’s just say both countries go back a long way approx. 1,000 years and more, it’s not exactly overnight phenomena.

Also as I am sure you are aware in history Irish people have only been accepted in the UK over the last 15 years, despite being culturally very similar.

So... your point is?

You claim Irish and British people are the same "race" (whatever that means, since the meaning of this useless word seems to change at the drop of a hat), you then imply that "integration" for Irish people into the UK has been easier in some respects because of the long history, but then you claim it's only in the last fifteen years Irish people have been accepted there, which sort of makes the point slightly redundant. Other nations with large immigrant populations in the UK, also have a long history with that nation through colonialism and one could claim that they have also only been "accepted" in the last decade or two, or indeed have not yet been "accepted". It seems the only real point to be made here is that Irish people are generally white and generally culturally similar. Now explain how this materially assists "integration", and define what the standards for this "integration" are.

djpbarry

SWL wrote: »

No it does not work like that in Ireland...

Yes, it does.

djpbarry

SWL wrote: »

Yes integration does depend on the race of the "subject"...

SWL wrote: »

It Is of no coincidence that NZ and AUS recruit Irish skilled labour to work in their countries because culturally they are similar and as a result easier to integrate...

woodoo wrote: »

Because within one generation they are virtually indistinguishable from your average Aussie or Kiwi.

So can we drop the “integration” bull**** at this point and call a spade a spade?

SWL

djpbarry wrote: »

Yes, it does.

Maybe on paper in the reality is completly different

SWL

djpbarry wrote: »

So can we drop the “integration” bull**** at this point and call a spade a spade?

Moving the goal posts again? As I said earlier look at your surroundings in London. I am Swedish, the most tolerant Country in Europe and as a society we have several problems with non swedes integrating – not because they are non swedes but because of their culture and race. That is a fact, its also a fact that the Dutch another very tolerant nation have also had enough. If Ireland wants to make the same mistakes then off you go, but the same people who promoted this nonsense are the very same people now complaining about it.
You are either employed in the immigration industry or are in a relationship with a non EU person because of your refusal to accept the reality over some academic utopia.

djpbarry

SWL wrote: »

Maybe on paper in the reality is completly different

Because you say so?

SWL wrote: »

Moving the goal posts again? As I said earlier look at your surroundings in London.

What am I supposed to be looking for?

SWL wrote: »

I am Swedish, the most tolerant Country in Europe and as a society we have several problems with non swedes integrating – not because they are non swedes but because of their culture and race.

People are having problems integrating because of their race? Does your definition of “integration” involve “becoming white”?

SWL wrote: »

You are either employed in the immigration industry or are in a relationship with a non EU person...

Wouldn’t the latter imply ... integration?

SWL

djpbarry wrote: »

Because you say so?
What am I supposed to be looking for?
People are having problems integrating because of their race? Does your definition of “integration” involve “becoming white”?
Wouldn’t the latter imply ... integration?

Its like debating with a Intellectually challenged adolescent - I am out of here.

BluntGuy

djpbarry wrote: »

People are having problems integrating because of their race? Does your definition of “integration” involve “becoming white”?

This thread has gone several pages without a coherent definition of "integration" being provided. Though the above would seem to be the implied meaning.

Wouldn’t the latter imply ... integration?

I got more stuck on the "employed in the immigration industry" accusation.

SWL wrote: »

Its like debating with a Intellectually challenged adolescent - I am out of here.

Before you leave, can you answer this question which you seem to have either missed or ignored:

It seems the only real point to be made here is that Irish people are generally white and generally culturally similar. Now explain how this materially assists "integration", and define what the standards for this "integration" are.

A Primal Nut

djpbarry wrote: »

But that’s generally how it works at the moment in Ireland. Employers can only hire a non-EU citizen if they can’t fill the position with an EU national. If anything, restrictions on non-EU nationals working in Ireland are too stringent.

That seems to be true but I still see plenty working here in restaurants and lots of other odd jobs. I seem to know as many without degrees as with degrees.