Question RE purchasing alcohol

daheff

I dont get the whole national age card thing being more acceptable than a drivers license. Both are government issues forms of identity, both are easily forged.

to me, anybody who refuses to accept a driving license is effectively suspecting you of forging it...and if you ask most why they wont accept it they'll tell you that they are easily forged (and hence imply suspicion)


also on the not selling to people who may supply to minors....unless the law has changed, if you are over 16 you are allowed to consume (but not purchase) alcohol.....so (assuming this is still the case) it is not an offence to purchase alcohol of (some)minors

(i accept i stand open to a lot of criticisim on that last point, and will retract that statement if anybody can prove otherwise)

Melendez

This post has been deleted.

MyKeyG

Corruptedmorals wrote: »

Dunnes will not accept driving licenses because they are easier to fake.

That's very true but why the Irish government refuse to take another leaf out of Britain's motoring book and issue plastic ID form drivers licenses is beyond me. http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/09/11/article-1054636-05D574230000044D-173_468x293_popup.jpg(This picture is a sample card, nobodies privacy is being breached). They adopted the MOT programme to NCT and they also adopted the points system so why not the plastic drivers license? The Garda pulls you over scans it and your info comes up on screen. It fit's in your wallet, doesn't tear, is as difficult to fake as an age card and it doubles as ID. If the government are going to start rolling out more and more regulation regarding the sale of alcohol then they're going to have to meet the public in the middle.

But 'Mikey' I hear you ask 'where's the trouble in toddling along and getting yourself a Garda age card?'. The answer is simple. I have enough crap in my wallet as it is.

MyKeyG

jor el wrote: »

Read what's written above. The only legally acceptable ID is a National Age Card. All other forms of ID are not acceptable by a court in the case of criminal prosecution for serving to minors (even a passport).

Direct from www.rrai.ie

Proof of Age

Production of a proof-of-age document will be demanded in all cases where the customer appears to be under the age of 21 years or otherwise where there there is a doubt about his or her age.

The Garda Age Card is the preferred proof-of-age document.

Not only does it not specifically mention that drivers license/passport is unacceptable as ID but it states clearly that The Garda Age Card is the preferred not the only proof-of-age document permitted. An individual being prosecuted for the sale/purchase of alcohol where the proof-of-age provided was a license/passport is a new one on me.

Pythia

MyKeyG wrote: »

That's very true but why the Irish government refuse to take another leaf out of Britain's motoring book and issue plastic ID form drivers licenses is beyond me.

Funnily enough, there's an article in today's newspaper announcing credit card style licenses. http://www.independent.ie/national-news/new-credit-card-style-driving-licence-to-replace-tattered-paper-version-2903035.html

MyKeyG

Pythia wrote: »

Funnily enough, there's an article in today's newspaper announcing credit card style licenses. http://www.independent.ie/national-news/new-credit-card-style-driving-licence-to-replace-tattered-paper-version-2903035.html

Damn I should have done the lotto!!!

I get that it's against the law to sell to minors, but some cop-on is needed. The last time I was in Dublin, they refused to sell my boyfriend a bottle of wine because I was with him and didn't have ID on me (passport was in the house and I don't have an Age Card because I don't live in Ireland). I could understand if we looked young, but ffs he's 28 and I'm 26 and we look it. We were buying one bottle of wine and a load of stuff to cook dinner with. They just kept repeating (rudely) that they had no obligation to sell anything to us, to which we responded that we had no obligation to buy anything. We told the manager we wouldn't be back, left everything there and went next door.

jor el

MyKeyG wrote: »

Not only does it not specifically mention that drivers license/passport is unacceptable as ID but it states clearly that The Garda Age Card is the preferred not the only proof-of-age document permitted. An individual being prosecuted for the sale/purchase of alcohol where the proof-of-age provided was a license/passport is a new one on me.

Read the rest of the document, as it specifically states that the Age Card is the only defence in court if your are prosecuted for sale to a minor. Other forms of ID can be accepted, but the retailer takes a risk by doing this, and they will not be accepted by the courts.

MyKeyG

jor el wrote: »

Read the rest of the document, as it specifically states that the Age Card is the only defence in court if your are prosecuted for sale to a minor. Other forms of ID can be accepted, but the retailer takes a risk by doing this, and they will not be accepted by the courts.

I'm genuinely not being smart but I can't find anything about prosecution on the RRAI website. And to be honest if that is the case then the code of practise for the sale of alcohol appears to be in conflict with court procedure.

rubadub

UrbanSea wrote: »

Say for example a woman and son are going up to the till and she's obviously overage and he is obviously underage,they're hardly going to ask him for id.

Shelflife wrote: »

father and son, mother and daughter?

Tesco refused to sell wine to a suburban mother aged 46... in case she gave it to her 14-year-old daughter

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1158864/Tesco-refused-sell-wine-46-year-old-woman--case-gave-14-year-old-daughter.html#ixzz1az0IYSKa

MyKeyG wrote: »

I'm genuinely not being smart but I can't find anything about prosecution on the RRAI website. And to be honest if that is the case then the code of practise for the sale of alcohol appears to be in conflict with court procedure.

http://www.rrai.ie/_fileupload/Training%20Manuals/RRAI_Staff_Training_Manual_12pages.pdf

NB – ONLY THE NATIONAL AGE CARD PROVIDES A DEFENCE IN COURT TO A CHARGE OF SALE TO AN UNDERAGE PERSON.

Where management policy may accept passports and drivers licences as proof of age documents this is done in
recognition that the only acceptable defence in court to a charge of sale of alcohol to an underage person is the
National Age Card. Student cards may not be accepted under any circumstances.
Take time to examine the ID carefully and compare the photograph to the customer.
Ask yourself does the ID look genuine. If you are unhappy with the age ID refuse the
sale politely.
If no acceptable ID is produced, decline the sale
politely and request the customer to return with
acceptable proof of age documentation.
If you encounter resistance stay calm and explain that under the law you
are obliged to ask for proof of age. If a customer persists, refer the matter
to the manager.
Even regular customers (whom you may have asked before for proof of age or whom may be known to you
i.e. neighbours etc.) must be asked for proof of age on each occasion if they look younger than 21.
If you are aware or suspicious that alcohol is being purchased for someone who is under 18 then you must refuse
the sale.

MyKeyG

Granted but you'd imagine the line that precedes:
NB – ONLY THE NATIONAL AGE CARD PROVIDES A DEFENCE IN COURT TO A CHARGE OF SALE TO AN UNDERAGE PERSON.

Would read:
The Garda National Age Card is the only acceptable proof of age.
Instead of:
The Garda National Age Card is the preferred proof of age.

I suppose what really grinds my gears is that these strict regulations seem only to be enforced in shopping centres with people trying to buy a bottle of wine with dinner and not so much the establishments where your ID is a 6 inch skirt with five inch heels.

jor el

It's preferred because the retailer may accept other IDs if they wish. Most people that carry a drivers licence as ID will not have a fake one, so in most cases anyone showing it would be genuinely over 18. If however it is a fake ID, then the retailer is criminally liable for selling, which is why many retailers will refuse anything but the National Age Card. If someone is over 18, then no criminal case can be brought for selling the alcohol, so accepting a drivers licence would not be a problem.

Common sense does play a part in ID checking, but some retailers seem to take parts of the law and implement it blindly, without applying any common sense at all. At the end of the day, the retailer doesn't have to sell you anything, and you can either accept that or not.

daenerysstormborn3

I did the shopping in Tesco one night, a fully loaded trolley, about €200 worth of groceries so a lot of stuff. About midway down the conveyor belt was a bottle of Captain Morgans. The woman at the till put through the groceries up to this point and then asked me if I had ID which I did. She then asked my friend (who had given me a lift to tesco) if she had ID, she produced her drivers licence. My friend was told that wasn't valid ID and I was refused the sale of the bottle of Captain Morgans based on this. So I unpacked the groceries that I had bagged so far and left them at the till and the rest on the conveyor belt and proceeded to exit the store. The queue behind me was about 10 people long and the woman at the till began putting the items back in the trolley to be returned to the shelves. As I was leaving the shop a supervisor came over to me and asked me what the problem was? I told her what had happened and she complained that I had left her staff with more work to do and there was no need to over react. The same as some of the other posters have said, she told me that they had no obligation to sell anything to me but then gave out to me for leaving my shopping, to which I replied that I had no obligation to buy anything and would not be returning to the shop.

UrbanSea

I would have done the same pixie.
It wasn't an overreaction,I'd imagine it would happen quite a bit.

MyKeyG

pixiebean22 wrote: »

I did the shopping in Tesco one night, a fully loaded trolley, about €200 worth of groceries so a lot of stuff. About midway down the conveyor belt was a bottle of Captain Morgans. The woman at the till put through the groceries up to this point and then asked me if I had ID which I did. She then asked my friend (who had given me a lift to tesco) if she had ID, she produced her drivers licence. My friend was told that wasn't valid ID and I was refused the sale of the bottle of Captain Morgans based on this. So I unpacked the groceries that I had bagged so far and left them at the till and the rest on the conveyor belt and proceeded to exit the store. The queue behind me was about 10 people long and the woman at the till began putting the items back in the trolley to be returned to the shelves. As I was leaving the shop a supervisor came over to me and asked me what the problem was? I told her what had happened and she complained that I had left her staff with more work to do and there was no need to over react. The same as some of the other posters have said, she told me that they had no obligation to sell anything to me but then gave out to me for leaving my shopping, to which I replied that I had no obligation to buy anything and would not be returning to the shop.

Well I'm sorry but your actions there were just rude and discourteous to other shoppers all of who did nothing to antagonise or treat you unfairly. Like I said in a previous post I just left a case of beer behind and walked off, she simply moved it to one side and kept going. But to hold people up while she had to load €200 worth of groceries into the trolley and call a manager to void the scanned items up to that point is completely out of order.

Mister Dread

She was dead right. Let the shops no thank there is a downside to their ridiculous over the top policies.

Shelflife

I dont think that the poster was rude in the slighest, the only difference between you was the amount of product that ye were buying.

in that instance, thats just procedures gone mad, the buyer produced a valid ID and their friend produced an official ID which proved their age, they were not buying anything in the store, they dont need to have an approved id.

I find the supervisors reaction bizarre to say the least, we refuse to sell you this item because of our petty procedures but we expect you to give us the rest of your custom without a quibble.

if that is the procedure in that store then how would a parent with children of any age buy any alcohol.

jobsworths, you cant beat them.

MyKeyG

Mister Dread wrote: »

She was dead right. Let the shops no thank there is a downside to their ridiculous over the top policies.

I wonder would you think the poster was dead right if it were you standing in the Q behind with your trolley full of groceries having been at work all day with a kid pulling at your leg while the till assistant has to load up all the posters goods and get someone to reverse the items scanned.

Mister Dread

I would. I'd also chastise the shop workers for causing the situation.

MyKeyG

Shelflife wrote: »

I find the supervisors reaction bizarre to say the least, we refuse to sell you this item because of our petty procedures but we expect you to give us the rest of your custom without a quibble.

That's because the rest of the items are not restricted to conditional sale! Alcohol is.:rolleyes:

if that is the procedure in that store then how would a parent with children of any age buy any alcohol.

That has been debated at length.

MyKeyG

Mister Dread wrote: »

I would. I'd also chastise the shop workers for causing the situation.

Yes that's right shop workers should be chastised for enforcing company policy. TROLL ALERT TROLL ALERT TROLL ALERT!

Shelflife

MyKeyG wrote: »

I wonder would you think the poster was dead right if it were you standing in the Q behind with your trolley full of groceries having been at work all day with a kid pulling at your leg while the till assistant has to load up all the posters goods and get someone to reverse the items scanned.

I would too, all the poster wanted was to buy their groceries, because of their pedantic procedures the store would let her.

I wouldnt give out to the workers, but id let the manager know i wasnt happy about it.

Btw i hope you didnt have any alcohol in your trolly, seeing as you had a child with you

rubadub

Shelflife wrote: »

I find the supervisors reaction bizarre to say the least, we refuse to sell you this item because of our petty procedures but we expect you to give us the rest of your custom without a quibble.

Strange alright, I wonder if they then considered putting up a sign to prevent this in the future, like saying ALL people accompanying you must have National age cards.

I see young lads hassling people for trolleys in supermarkets, to bring them back for the shopper to get the euro coin. I can imagine them hanging out of you going up to buy beer "gis a euro mister and I'll feck off, otherwise they won't serve you!"

MyKeyG

Shelflife wrote: »

I would too, all the poster wanted was to buy their groceries, because of their pedantic procedures the store would let her.

I wouldnt give out to the workers, but id let the manager know i wasnt happy about it.

Btw i hope you didnt have any alcohol in your trolly, seeing as you had a child with you

Look I'd be the first one to say the law is a farce but it is the law. I'm sorry but to do that to people in a Q behind you who did nothing to you is rude.

Personally I buy my alcohol ONLY when I'm on my own. Never with someone underage.

Mister Dread

MyKeyG wrote: »

Look I'd be the first one to say the law is a farce but it is the law. I'm sorry but to do that to people in a Q behind you who did nothing to you is rude.

Personally I buy my alcohol ONLY when I'm on my own. Never with someone underage.

You're talking crap troll.

If they were to do everything by the book then they would ask every 50/60 year old for an age card if they were buying drink. They'd also have to ask the persons behind them as they might be in a group

They don't do that because it's not common sense. That's the difference between a jobsworth and a normal person.

NinjaTruncs

MyKeyG wrote: »

Look I'd be the first one to say the law is a farce but it is the law. I'm sorry but to do that to people in a Q behind you who did nothing to you is rude.

Personally I buy my alcohol ONLY when I'm on my own. Never with someone underage.

Where does the underage person come into it?

It's a joke of a ruling, it shouldn't be up to the sales person to verify what you intend to do with the alcohol, that is fully up to the person buying it. I go shopping with my wife every week and she never has ID on her, actually I only ever have my drivers licence on me, if they refused to sell me alcohol I'd be walking out on the spot whether there is a queue or not behind me. If it's a problem for the shop they should stop offering alcohol for sale. I know it's the law but the whole "invitation to treat" idea is bollox and should only be an issue for serious misprices, If dunnes have something on the shelf they want to sell it why else would they put it there. Them turning around and saying they have the right to sell one product to an adult and not another is just nonsense.

MyKeyG

From http://www.rrai.ie/

Penalties for the sale of alcohol to underage persons may include:
• Temporary closure orders are mandatory and the Judge has no discretion.
• For a first offence the closure will be up to a maximum of 7 days.
• For a second offence the closure will be for a minimum of 7 days up to a maximum of 30 days.
• A conviction under the Licensing Acts may lead to an endorsement on the Licence, Fines and Negative Publicity (as
a sign stating why the premises is closed has to be clearly displayed in a prominent position at the premises).
• Fines of €1,000 for a first offence and €1,500 for second or subsequent offences may be imposed.

Aiding and abetting
Employees who sell alcohol to underage drinkers can themselves be prosecuted for “aiding and abetting”.
While the prime responsibility for such matters lies with the licence holder legal responsibility also lies with the person
involved in the transaction. An Garda Síochána are now prosecuting employees who have been involved in underage sales
on a regular basis as well as the licence holders themselves.

Practical guidelines to prevent underage sales
Care and time must be taken to assess the following factors:
• The customer’s true age.
• Who is accompanying them (e.g. are the people accompanying them under 18 years).
• Remember when you are making a sale of alcohol you may be making a sale to a wider party of people other than
those who are standing before you at the counter.
• Does the quality or mix of products look suspicious? For example is a person seeking 3 naggins of spirits rather than
a large bottle

I'm not saying this is not all farcical but it is what it is. When these guidelines were brought in years ago there were half a dozen pubs/off-licences closed in my town for a weekend losing thousands in revenue. While a fine may be the most huge companies like Tesco and Dunnes might get they can not afford the bad press.

Melendez

This post has been deleted.

MyKeyG

NinjaTruncs wrote: »

Where does the underage person come into it?

OK I meant with somebody who might be pulled up for ID and not have it!

It's a joke of a ruling, it shouldn't be up to the sales person to verify what you intend to do with the alcohol, that is fully up to the person buying it. I go shopping with my wife every week and she never has ID on her, actually I only ever have my drivers licence on me, if they refused to sell me alcohol I'd be walking out on the spot whether there is a queue or not behind me. If it's a problem for the shop they should stop offering alcohol for sale. I know it's the law but the whole "invitation to treat" idea is bollox and should only be an issue for serious misprices, If dunnes have something on the shelf they want to sell it why else would they put it there. Them turning around and saying they have the right to sell one product to an adult and not another is just nonsense.

You can say it's a joke of a ruling and it's bollox all you want and you know what? I AGREE WITH YOU. But it is the procedure.

People here don't know how well they have it. Wait until it becomes like The States. The Cops love to do ID spot checks. If one of your party doesn't have appropriate ID they ask who was serving you. The bar gets a hefty fine and the server/drinker in question get a day in court where they will probably be fined not to mention the fact that the server WILL have been fired.

MyKeyG

Melendez wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

But the threat is 100% and that's all that matters to some establishments.