Vets being replaced by Agricultural officiers in Meat Factory

Traonach

Vets (Temporary Veterinary Inspectors) are being replaced with Agricultural Officiers (AO's) in meat factories.

In Meat factories the stamping of carcases is being transfered to the meat factory workers. At present the AO's currently do this. This will lead to surplus AO's in the meat factories. Since the AO's are civil servants they are unsackable. The vets who are contract workers are being sacked and replaced with the AO's. Although the vets are on a higher hourly rate than the AO's, they do not receive sick pay, holiday pay or a pension. Overall the vet are better value for money.

How will this affect farmers?
Contracts that the meat factories have could be lost (especially the Russian Markets). What is more likely is that buyers of beef/lamb such as Tesco will want a reduction in the price they will have to pay for the meat, since the meat inspection standard will be decreased. I can't see the meat factories taking the hit and they will pass the price cut onto the farmers.

Tora Bora

Them vets pushing paper around the factories should be out in the real world, taking blues out the side at three in the morning.;)

leg wax

Tora Bora wrote: »

Them vets pushing paper around the factories should be out in the real world, taking blues out the side at three in the morning.;)

we have cows with zips now so dont need a vet for that either:D.look up on you tube inside cows stomach.

Traonach

Tora Bora wrote: »

Them vets pushing paper around the factories should be out in the real world, taking blues out the side at three in the morning.;)

Practically all the TVI's in the meat factories are in general practice as well:rolleyes:. The Department vets in the factories are being untouched of course.

greysides

Traonach wrote: »

How will this affect farmers?

Large animal veterinary practice has three sources of income.

Clinical work.
State scheme work (TB and Brucellosis testing)
TVI work.

The percentage input of each of these will vary from practice to practice and area to area.

If one facet is gone a practice will be able to support less staff. Less staff means less vets on the ground during the busy times of the year.

Veterinary clinical work is seasonal, TVI and State work evens out the peaks and maintains the service at current levels.

In an effort to keep solvent it is likely that clinical fees will have to increase to a level comparible to the UK.

As numbers of large animal vets drop, distances travelled and time waiting for the response to a call will likely increase.

It is particularly gauling in the current financial crisis that if jobs are to be lost in an effort to save the country money that the result will only be yet more money being wasted.

A bit Irish really!

pajero12

Tora Bora wrote: »

Them vets pushing paper around the factories should be out in the real world, taking blues out the side at three in the morning.;)

Yes..Because all the vets live off their 3 hour shifts in the factory :P

blue5000

greysides wrote: »

Large animal veterinary practice has three sources of income.

Clinical work.
State scheme work (TB and Brucellosis testing)
TVI work.

The percentage input of each of these will vary from practice to practice and area to area.

If one facet is gone a practice will be able to support less staff. Less staff means less vets on the ground during the busy times of the year.

Veterinary clinical work is seasonal, TVI and State work evens out the peaks and maintains the service at current levels.

In an effort to keep solvent it is likely that clinical fees will have to increase to a level comparible to the UK.

As numbers of large animal vets drop, distances travelled and time waiting for the response to a call will likely increase.



It is particularly gauling in the current financial crisis that if jobs are to be lost in an effort to save the country money that the result will only be yet more money being wasted.

A bit Irish really!

Greysides up until this yr due to the poor success rate and lowish value of cattle it was uneconimic to call out a vet. What is the point of having a vet bill of 5/6 k and a knackery bill? We were better off with a box of cartridges.

How much does a vet get/hr for factory work anyway?

Tora Bora

greysides wrote: »

Large animal veterinary practice has three sources of income.

Clinical work.
State scheme work (TB and Brucellosis testing)
TVI work.

The percentage input of each of these will vary from practice to practice and area to area.

If one facet is gone a practice will be able to support less staff. Less staff means less vets on the ground during the busy times of the year.

Veterinary clinical work is seasonal, TVI and State work evens out the peaks and maintains the service at current levels.

In an effort to keep solvent it is likely that clinical fees will have to increase to a level comparible to the UK.

As numbers of large animal vets drop, distances travelled and time waiting for the response to a call will likely increase.

It is particularly gauling in the current financial crisis that if jobs are to be lost in an effort to save the country money that the result will only be yet more money being wasted.

A bit Irish really!

There will have to be a fast track college course made available for farmers to train to carry out sections themselves.
It's a pretty much repetitive operation, so should not be that difficult.

5live

Tora Bora wrote: »

There will have to be a fast track college course made available for farmers to train to carry out sections themselves.
It's a pretty much repetitive operation, so should not be that difficult.

The op is relitively easy. Its the drugs used and the prescribing of them that would cause a problem

blue5000

Tora Bora wrote: »

There will have to be a fast track college course made available for farmers to train to carry out sections themselves.
It's a pretty much repetitive operation, so should not be that difficult.

TB testing ain't rocket science either, sure we could do that ourselves too, the biggest job is rounding them up, it's only a few yrs ago vets had to do all the tagging as well!

redzerologhlen

blue5000 wrote: »

Greysides up until this yr due to the poor success rate and lowish value of cattle it was uneconimic to call out a vet. What is the point of having a vet bill of 5/6 k and a knackery bill? We were better off with a box of cartridges.

How much does a vet get/hr for factory work anyway?

Very true, Were having a bad run with our vet the last few years too, Very little surviving after him. The auld lad even called him the grim reaper. Tidy enough with the bills too!!

greysides

Tora Bora wrote: »

There will have to be a fast track college course made available for farmers to train to carry out sections themselves.
It's a pretty much repetitive operation, so should not be that difficult.

An archery quote:

Never underestimate the complexity of a skill that appears to be the epitome of simplicity when performed by an expert! Wayne C. McKinney

Tora Bora

greysides wrote: »

An archery quote:

Never underestimate the complexity of a skill that appears to be the epitome of simplicity when performed by an expert! Wayne C. McKinney

Well needs must, despite the profound wisdom of Wayne C McKinney.

The fact is, that fewer and fewer new vets coming out of college are going into and staying in general practice.
Consequently the availability of general practice vets to come at 3 am to do the heavy lifting is getting more and more limited. That is just a fact of life.
Another solution will be needed, I suspect.

PS. I am not getting at vets. If the HSE and the general health services were one quarter as good, responsive, professional, dedicated as the general run of vets in this country, there would be no patients on trollies.

But general practice vets are like catholic priests. Getting scarce:(
Lay people in both professions are going to have to do more, sooner or later.

pajero12

5live wrote: »

The op is relitively easy. Its the drugs used and the prescribing of them that would cause a problem

It's not the drugs that are the problem, The anaesthetic is the same as that used for de budding and a normal antibiotic..Any idiot can cut, it takes skill to stich properly!!

Traonach

Tora Bora wrote: »

There will have to be a fast track college course made available for farmers to train to carry out sections themselves.
It's a pretty much repetitive operation, so should not be that difficult.

How do you know it's not difficult?
How many have you done?
Are c-sections with the calf-bed twisted simple or when the calf is coming backwards? How about when the calf-bed is contracted (after a long labour) and the vet has to cut the calf-bed inside the cow?

greysides

blue5000 wrote: »

Greysides up until this yr due to the poor success rate and lowish value of cattle it was uneconimic to call out a vet.

The point I'm making is that even if cattle prices were to remain high that uneconomic differential may come into existence again due to a forced price rise at the other end of the swing.

Vets are well aware that increasing prices will decrease calls but there may well be no option. It may well be that it's necessary to have a chance of continuing. If the battle is lost then there's less coverage for when it's needed............ and all because the easy/expedient option rather than the best option was taken.

If coverage is lost there are more losers than just the vets concerned.

The outbreak of FMD in the UK was spotted by a vet doing TVI work in an abattoir. Luckily he did, it had gotten well out of hand already at that point. A few more days unnoticed and it could have made much more inroads into this country too. We were very lucky, very very lucky. It wasn't all due to the Dept's handling of the affair. Lady Luck was with us.

The TVI work done is important, most is not form-filling. It's ensuring the finished carcase is clean and the meat fit to be consumed. A fact that's easily lost sight of during a long, busy stint with high temperature and humidity wearing you down.

Vets act as an independent observer on the killing floor. If carcases or part-carcases are condemned it's for good reason and not at the whim of a factory operative.

In a business where quantity, rather than quality, is the desired route to profitability, despite publicity to the contrary, the factory operators need some restraint in the speed and condition they produce FOOD in.

While AOs have been trained to do the job, how can that compare with 5 years in college and daily experience of animal disease and knowing how disease works?
It has been suggested that it may take several AOs to replace one vet due to the way the civil service works.

As well as saving, or not saving, money, the decision needs to be looked at in the light of the confidence that having vets rather than lay inspectors can give to foreign buyers. Ireland is export dependent.

A vet on the line is a better guarantee of a safe consumable product than any of the rubbish HACCP quality control and quality assured schemes the factories come up with.

I've seen inspections go through where the high-light of the tour was the reprinting of a label and the explanation of how they can trace everything back to the farm of origin.
Only one person on one inspection ever thought to look at the actual carcases. That person was a Rabbi. They inspect the meat killed for them themselves. Wise people.




If 'success rate' refers to caesars then I think the majority are successful. It will depend on state of play at the start of course.

Similarly, if 'success rate' means 'cure rate' then that also depends on the state of play at the start.

It's a kind of catch 22 that if you wait for the animal to improve without calling the vet then if you do lose that gamble the odds of success are lessened when you do make the call.
Also, the cost of drugs is going to be higher (longer course/heavier dose rate/more expensive drugs used) for an animal with a larger risk of dying.

While it's perhaps a little outside the scope of this economic discussion, there's also ethical and welfare considerations when an animal is sick or unable to calve.
It's a risk of keeping animals that some will cost you more than they're worth. If that number gets great enough to compromise the finances of the business, it's a signal that another business may better suit the individual.
For the good stockman its not going to be make or break, under normal conditions.

I think the box of cartridges option is appropriate in certain situations but doing nothing and just waiting for the animal to die isn't.

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

Traonach wrote: »

How will this affect farmers?
Contracts that the meat factories have could be lost

Im sure they checked this before sacking the vets. Would have been very stupid not to. Which factories are doin this?

Tipp Man

Is this actually going ahead or is it just an idea being bandied about??

blue5000

greysides wrote: »

The point I'm making is that even if cattle prices were to remain high that uneconomic differential may come into existence again due to a forced price rise at the other end of the swing.

Vets are well aware that increasing prices will decrease calls but there may well be no option. It may well be that it's necessary to have a chance of continuing. If the battle is lost then there's less coverage for when it's needed............ and all because the easy/expedient option rather than the best option was taken.

If coverage is lost there are more losers than just the vets concerned.

The outbreak of FMD in the UK was spotted by a vet doing TVI work in an abattoir. Luckily he did, it had gotten well out of hand already at that point. A few more days unnoticed and it could have made much more inroads into this country too. We were very lucky, very very lucky. It wasn't all due to the Dept's handling of the affair. Lady Luck was with us.

The TVI work done is important, most is not form-filling. It's ensuring the finished carcase is clean and the meat fit to be consumed. A fact that's easily lost sight of during a long, busy stint with high temperature and humidity wearing you down.

Vets act as an independent observer on the killing floor. If carcases or part-carcases are condemned it's for good reason and not at the whim of a factory operative.

In a business where quantity, rather than quality, is the desired route to profitability, despite publicity to the contrary, the factory operators need some restraint in the speed and condition they produce FOOD in.

While AOs have been trained to do the job, how can that compare with 5 years in college and daily experience of animal disease and knowing how disease works?
It has been suggested that it may take several AOs to replace one vet due to the way the civil service works.

As well as saving, or not saving, money, the decision needs to be looked at in the light of the confidence that having vets rather than lay inspectors can give to foreign buyers. Ireland is export dependent.

A vet on the line is a better guarantee of a safe consumable product than any of the rubbish HACCP quality control and quality assured schemes the factories come up with.

I've seen inspections go through where the high-light of the tour was the reprinting of a label and the explanation of how they can trace everything back to the farm of origin.
Only one person on one inspection ever thought to look at the actual carcases. That person was a Rabbi. They inspect the meat killed for them themselves. Wise people.




If 'success rate' refers to caesars then I think the majority are successful. It will depend on state of play at the start of course.

Similarly, if 'success rate' means 'cure rate' then that also depends on the state of play at the start.

It's a kind of catch 22 that if you wait for the animal to improve without calling the vet then if you do lose that gamble the odds of success are lessened when you do make the call.
Also, the cost of drugs is going to be higher (longer course/heavier dose rate/more expensive drugs used) for an animal with a larger risk of dying.

While it's perhaps a little outside the scope of this economic discussion, there's also ethical and welfare considerations when an animal is sick or unable to calve.
It's a risk of keeping animals that some will cost you more than they're worth. If that number gets great enough to compromise the finances of the business, it's a signal that another business may better suit the individual.
For the good stockman its not going to be make or break, under normal conditions.

I think the box of cartridges option is appropriate in certain situations but doing nothing and just waiting for the animal to die isn't.

Thanks Greysides for your reply to my box of cartridges solution. Margins have gotten a lot tighter on livestock farms over the last 20 yrs or so. I used to give every animal that was sick the best chance of recovery, my stockmanship used to be a lot sharper than it is now.

I presume you are a vet who has probably seen a drastic reduction in stockmanship over the years. Farmers these days have a lot more to be thinking about: inspections, sfp, is the overdraft up to the limit? etc. The simple harsh economic fact is that having the paperwork correct is a bigger factor in a farmer's income than whether a sick animal survives or not. Another big change over the past 20 yrs is labour availability. Most of us are on our own, all day, every day. We simply do not have time, especially in Spring time, to look after a cow that is down for example.

'It's a risk of keeping animals that some will cost you more than they're worth. If that number gets great enough to compromise the finances of the business, it's a signal that another business may better suit the individual'.

Yes there are times when I probably would have been better off packing the farm in and driving a digger or laying blocks for someone else, believe me I've thought about it.


'It's a kind of catch 22 that if you wait for the animal to improve without calling the vet then if you do lose that gamble the odds of success are lessened when you do make the call.
Also, the cost of drugs is going to be higher (longer course/heavier dose rate/more expensive drugs used) for an animal with a larger risk of dying.'

Yes I agree with you 100% here, which is why I try to adopt a prevention rather than cure attitude to animal health. I also agree that we need independent inspections in factories, I agree that it is very easy to pull the wool over consumers' eyes with paperwork, dates, labels etc. But I've also been in a meat factory, watching my cattle being slaughtered where, when I asked the vet if my cattle had any liver fluke he just completely ignored me, didn't even look at me.

Thank you for your reply to the 'box of cartridges' section of my original post. Perhaps now you could reply to the second part of my original post.

How much does a vet get/hr for factory work anyway?

Atilathehun

blue5000 wrote: »

Thanks Greysides for your reply to my box of cartridges solution.
How much does a vet get/hr for factory work anyway?

<snip>

[MOD] Let's not be accusing a named individual of bribery, huh? [/MOD]

greysides

blue5000 wrote: »

But I've also been in a meat factory, watching my cattle being slaughtered where, when I asked the vet if my cattle had any liver fluke he just completely ignored me, didn't even look at me.

I think you've to put that down to the individual involved. Personally I'm happy to answer those questions and, on my own initiative at times, point out other matters that can be seen PM and make a difference for the better...... lungworm in lungs, bad fluke infestations, tapeworm in the abdomen, excessive proportion of lambs with joint-ill, injection absesses (particularly those sited where a leg or sidequarter could be lost.
There can be a useful amount of information available easily, and free! It's called Abattoir Data Retrieval..... but that's a different topic.

Perhaps now you could reply to the second part of my original post.

How much does a vet get/hr for factory work anyway?

To answer that I'd need to look it up as I don't know it off-pat. Suffice it to say that after several types of tax are taken out of it to go back to the exchequer it's a lot less than it first seems to be. It has also been nicely cut since the bubble broke.

The factory cheque for me is like the milk cheque for a dairy farmer. Dependable, regular, the basis for everyday spending. Other income is much more irregular.
It allows other work to be done at lower rates of pay rather than insist that each facet of practice is as remunerative. It would be interesting if someone could post the charges vets in the UK charge.

djmc

I had a cow this year milking that got stomach problem and started to swell
I thought about sending to factory before using drugs as she wasnt realy that sick at that stage or calling vet
I rang vet and asked if I should factory or not
After 2 months 450 euro on drugs and call out charges she died then had to pay 190 to knackery + loss of cow
Next time I have a case like this it will be straight to factory if possable.
I also think that a farmer over the years can get a good know how of what drugs work on their animals and save on the call out fee.

blue5000

Hi Greysides is it just a proposal that vets are to be replaced in factories or is there something more concrete?

I appreciate your point of view, and poor old *arry is having to pay more for cattle this year and is probably looking at his margin and wondering where a few cents can be saved.

greysides

AFAIK, it's a proposal that's under discussion although the Dept seem pretty adamant about seeing it through.

Again, AFAIK, the factories do have to pay some of the costs of vet inspection but some is also paid by the Dept.

I can't see that this would change so *arry wouldn't see any change.

cuddlylad

blue5000 wrote: »

How much does a vet get/hr for factory work anyway?

:D vets get paid €90/hr, usually a 3hr shift so this could be from 6am to 9am = they could have made €270 before some of us even get up. also if the kill is running late in the evening and they need another shift of vets, they get paid for the full 3 hour shift, whether the kill last 15 min or 3hrs!!:eek::eek:

Traonach

cuddlylad wrote: »

:D vets get paid €90/hr, usually a 3hr shift so this could be from 6am to 9am = they could have made €270 before some of us even get up.

67 euros per hour.

also if the kill is running late in the evening and they need another shift of vets, they get paid for the full 3 hour shift, whether the kill last 15 min or 3hrs!!:eek::eek:

If the shift will be only a short one it will be 2.25 hours not 3 hours.

cuddlylad

Traonach wrote: »

67 euros per hour.

If the shift will be only a short one it will be 2.25 hours not 3 hours.

i have seen a new shift of vets being brought in to finish a kill of 15 mins!! but they still get the 3 hours pay.

cuddlylad

Traonach wrote: »

67 euros per hour.

also will stand corrected on the rate/hour, however at one time maybe 3-4 years ago it was as high as €90/hr

greysides

cuddlylad wrote: »

...if the kill is running late in the evening and they need another shift of vets, they get paid for the full 3 hour shift, whether the kill last 15 min or 3hrs!!:eek::eek:

Shifts can be extended by half an hour with those present staying on for the worth of the extra time. (I've seen the 30 minutes become 45 easily enough.)
If the kill is going to go longer than that then another shift of vets is called.
Bear in mind, that this is not just the shift running over by a few minutes but likely to be caused by a major fault with the killing line where the time to be made up is not short. The vets concerned will have not much notice to get there and other planned work may have to be post-poned or cancelled to do so.
If the kill was extended the day before there would just be a shift of vets put on in the normal way.

As it so happens my most recent cheque came today and is here beside me. One third of my earnings has gone straight back to the exchequer.

flatout11

Tora Bora wrote: »

Them vets pushing paper around the factories should be out in the real world, taking blues out the side at three in the morning.;)

the vast majority of them are the lads (and women) doing the sections at 3 in the morning - there nearly all practicing vets

flatout11

Tora Bora wrote: »

There will have to be a fast track college course made available for farmers to train to carry out sections themselves.
It's a pretty much repetitive operation, so should not be that difficult.

christ with the butchering match some used to make of skulling cattle ..... yikes!!!
the procudure is relitavly straight forward with a normal presentation and a docile cow, now through in an abnormal presentation a cow that wont numb up right and a calf that needs a shot to revive him - feck it the extra pair of hands alone is nearly worth it, we aint in new zealand just yet

highcream

Tora Bora wrote: »

There will have to be a fast track college course made available for farmers to train to carry out sections themselves.
It's a pretty much repetitive operation, so should not be that difficult.

Sorry just read this now.Agree totally.
The guys who were slow learners in school should defo take over from the whizkids(vets,doctors,dentists).
Makes perfect sense.
Hey,i could pull a tooth easily.
Maybe i should start charging dentists fees
Lol
Amazing when u are at the top in terms of education/career the amount of people who want to take u down:)

5live

highcream wrote: »

Sorry just read this now.Agree totally.
The guys who were slow learners in school should defo take over from the whizkids(vets,doctors,dentists).
Makes perfect sense.
Hey,i could pull a tooth easily.
Maybe i should start charging dentists fees
Lol
Amazing when u are at the top in terms of education/career the amount of people who want to take u down:)

Are you implying that because i am a farmer i am not competent to carry out a C-section?

kippy

5live wrote: »

Are you implying that because i am a farmer i am not competent to carry out a C-section?

Looks like it.
Right now, to be fair, you're probably not. Not because you are a farmer mind, but because you haven't received the required training to do so.

I think anything done by a professional can be made to look easy, however when the mostly "standard" procedures get complicated, thats when the training and knowledge comes in.
I'm not a vet by the way and would never want to be exposed to those types of hours and types of work.

5live

kippy wrote: »

Looks like it.
Right now, to be fair, you're probably not. Not because you are a farmer mind, but because you haven't received the required training to do so.

I think anything done by a professional can be made to look easy, however when the mostly "standard" procedures get complicated, thats when the training and knowledge comes in.
I'm not a vet by the way and would never want to be exposed to those types of hours and types of work.

And who said i havent recieved the right training;)

kippy

5live wrote: »

And who said i havent recieved the right training;)

No one, including yourself up until this point.
So you've undertaken veterinary training?

5live

kippy wrote: »

No one, including yourself up until this point.
So you've undertaken veterinary training?

Not saying i have or havent. But i can PM you with the answer:p

highcream

5live wrote: »

Are you implying that because i am a farmer i am not competent to carry out a C-section?

No,i am saying u have not earned the right to practice veterinary medicine.
The average lay person could probably be trained to do a c section on an animal as well as a human.Same operation.
I can drive a car but i dont go around passing myself off as a taxi man.
I can write my signature on a repeat prescription.This doesnt mean i am entitled to prescribe a medicine and charge 20 euro for it.
It is illegal for a lay person to practice veterinary medicine not to mention incredibly cruel.
If u want to carry out a c section on an animal.Go back to school.Score in the top 5% in the country in your leaving cert.Then complete arguably the most difficult/rigorous college course worldwide.
Then u are ENTITLED to carry out a c section on an animal.

Traonach

5live wrote: »

The op is relitively easy. Its the drugs used and the prescribing of them that would cause a problem

Totally untrue.
What about when the calf-bed is twisted.
When the vet has to do a section with the cow down.
When the cow has been calving along time and the calf-bed can't be exteriorised.
When the calf is dead and rotten.
When the calf is coming backwards.
When the cow is mad and vicious and the vet risks her life doing the section.
When the cow has had previous sections and everything inside is stuck together.
When the vet has to do the section on the right hand side.

SoJoMo

the reason I dont drive a taxi is because its regulated with licenses not because I cant or couldn't learn to drive a car with paying passengers.
What the success rate of c-sections that end up being complex?

Of course vets dont want farmers performing their own c-section s (calf coming backways ... c-section, difficult calving .... c-section = €200+ - its one of their biggest earners

of course vets dont want farmers performing TB etc test - its one of their biggest earners

of course vets dont want farmers to know and be able to perscribe medicines - its a big earner.

someone asked about vet charges in UK ... a friends cousin farms up north and his Vets call out fee £25 !! As for the price of medicines .... up to half the price!

bob charles

highcream wrote: »

It is illegal for a lay person to practice veterinary medicine not to mention incredibly cruel.

is it? your certain of that? obvisouly to practice for reward it would be, but all other circumstances.

LostCovey

blue5000 wrote: »

Greysides up until this yr due to the poor success rate and lowish value of cattle it was uneconimic to call out a vet. What is the point of having a vet bill of 5/6 k and a knackery bill? We were better off with a box of cartridges.

How much does a vet get/hr for factory work anyway?

Too many people seem to be calling a vet after trying every thing else first (including the internet in SOME cases) then crying about success rates.

LostCovey

Farmers should definitely do their own TB tests tag the reactors and deal with all the paperwork, I don't see the problem there. Unless someone is implying that they wouldn't be impartial.

I am not trying to rile people here, but there's a good few lads I know who can't hang a gate, keep silage plastic off the bushes or wash their hands - the idea of them doing surgery is absolutely hilarious. I haven't laughed out loud reading posts for a while (not at the posters themselves, but at the image of where some of the dafter suggestions here would end up).

I was just picturing a few lads I know trying to close a c section with baler twine & pallets.

Have a good weekend boys & girls, ye have cheered me up no end.

pajero12

Tora Bora wrote: »

There will have to be a fast track college course made available for farmers to train to carry out sections themselves.
It's a pretty much repetitive operation, so should not be that difficult.

After witnessing a particular section this morning, I hope this never happens, I have no doubt in my mind, If anyone less than a very experienced vet did the job, the cow would be dead now!

5live

highcream wrote: »

No,i am saying u have not earned the right to practice veterinary medicine.
The average lay person could probably be trained to do a c section on an animal as well as a human.Same operation.
I can drive a car but i dont go around passing myself off as a taxi man.
I can write my signature on a repeat prescription.This doesnt mean i am entitled to prescribe a medicine and charge 20 euro for it.
It is illegal for a lay person to practice veterinary medicine not to mention incredibly cruel.
If u want to carry out a c section on an animal.Go back to school.Score in the top 5% in the country in your leaving cert.Then complete arguably the most difficult/rigorous college course worldwide.
Then u are ENTITLED to carry out a c section on an animal.

. Is it cold up there on that high horse?

2 sections. One on a cow that died waiting for the vet. On the line to the vet when she dropped, heavily pregnant, got the ok from the vet to cut and pull. Live charolais heifer calf which would have died had i not acted. That sure was cruel on the calf, to give her a chance of life:rolleyes:
One abroad, no vet available, animal would have died, we sectioned and barely kept twins alive, clamped the bleeding and eventually vet arrived and closed her up and prescribed antibiotics. All 3 survived.
All legal and above board. No exotic complications (bar location). Veterinary supervision after the fact.

I have seen enough sections to be able to carry out the basics, in situations of animal welfare. Its not brain surgery or astrophysics. Due post-operative care was given both cases and appropriate prescription of antibiotics was given.

But i suppose it would have been ok to let all the animals die to appease your bleeding heart. So no years of study and still have, barely, the ability to carry out a succesful operation.

Jesus wept:eek:

Lizard_Moon

5live wrote: »

2 sections. One on a cow that died waiting for the vet. On the line to the vet when she dropped, heavily pregnant, got the ok from the vet to cut and pull. Live charolais heifer calf which would have died had i not acted. That sure was cruel on the calf, to give her a chance of life:rolleyes:
One abroad, no vet available, animal would have died, we sectioned and barely kept twins alive, clamped the bleeding and eventually vet arrived and closed her up and prescribed antibiotics. All 3 survived.
All legal and above board. No exotic complications (bar location). Veterinary supervision after the fact.

I have seen enough sections to be able to carry out the basics, in situations of animal welfare. Its not brain surgery or astrophysics. Due post-operative care was given both cases and appropriate prescription of antibiotics was given.

But i suppose it would have been ok to let all the animals die to appease your bleeding heart. So no years of study and still have, barely, the ability to carry out a succesful operation

As a vet I have avoided this thread as I cannot understand why this is even being considered. However the above requires a reply.

1- first you opened a dead cow. Fine no welfare problems there. No pain caused to the cow. No legal problems as far as I am aware as carrying out an act of butchery- cutting up a dead animal. Although why did she die? Was there much intervention beforehand?

2- where abroad? Are we talking EU or third world. If third world then absolutley no comparison to here.
Why was the cow let get into that state? Did you fail to monitor her calving so that an early intervention could be carried out? Was any local anaesthetic given to the cow? Your cow lived, in spite of yr treatment. Cows are great, the ones you expect to die can live.
Yes you managed slice the cow to get the calf out but the real skill is in putting everything back together. You did NOT carry out the op successfully as the VET had to stitch it all up.

You talk about animal welfare. You talk about farmers being professional enough to do sections. How about farmers doing what they are responsible for correctly. Put animals in calf that can carry and deliver a pregnancy. Use bulls that don't need sections. Don't put immature heifers in calf. Monitor cows calving.

Most farmers do the above. If they have sections, well they did everything to avoid them. Anyone can get caught out and this year they are more common than ever.

A section is a tool we use to prevent undue suffering to the cow and calf. It should not be considered a routine management tool. A good outcome is not guaranteed every time. Disasters occur. If you think sections are easy it's because your experienced vet makes them look like that.

Finally the original query was not relating to last ditch, life or death situations.

5live

Lizard_Moon wrote: »

As a vet I have avoided this thread as I cannot understand why this is even being considered. However the above requires a reply.

1- first you opened a dead cow. Fine no welfare problems there. No pain caused to the cow. No legal problems as far as I am aware as carrying out an act of butchery- cutting up a dead animal. Although why did she die? Old age, should have been gone but not my decision. Was there much intervention beforehand?. Lots

2- where abroad? Are we talking EU or third world. If third world then absolutley no comparison to here. There are locations in the first world where vets are not available on demand, in fact not so far from these shores
Why was the cow let get into that state? Again poor management decision. Did you fail to monitor her calving so that an early intervention could be carried out? Again, not my responsibility. Was any local anaesthetic given to the cow? None:(. Your(?) cow lived, in spite of yr(?) treatment. Cows are great, the ones you expect to die can live. So very true.
Yes you managed slice the cow to get the calf out but the real skill is in putting everything back together. Never said it wasnt. You did NOT carry out the op successfully as the VET had to stitch it all up. ...but kept them alive long enough that the vet COULD stitch it all back together when he subsequently arrived

You talk about animal welfare. You talk about farmers being professional enough to do sections. How about farmers doing what they are responsible for correctly. Put animals in calf that can carry and deliver a pregnancy. Use bulls that don't need sections. See certain breed societies about that Don't put immature heifers in calf. Never said any different Monitor cows calving. Never said any different, always done here

Most farmers do the above. If they have sections, well they did everything to avoid them. Anyone can get caught out and this year they are more common than ever. Yes they did

A section is a tool we use to prevent undue suffering to the cow and calf. It should not be considered a routine management tool. Again, never said they should be, probably should lecture to other sections gathered around, 15 years since last section A good outcome is not guaranteed every time. Disasters occur. If you think sections are easy it's because your experienced vet makes them look like that. Never said he didnt

Finally the original query was not relating to last ditch, life or death situations.Original query stated farmers could never do sections

Ok?

LostCovey

5live wrote: »

Ok?

OK to open a living creature's abdomen with a knife without an anaesthetic for profit?

OK to leave her like that till somebody came along with the skills to repair the damage you did?

OK to brag about it?

Nope.

LC

Lizard_Moon

Tora Bora wrote: »

There will have to be a fast track college course made available for farmers to train to carry out sections themselves.
It's a pretty much repetitive operation, so should not be that difficult.

5Live: No they were not talking about emergency, back of beyonds, everything else fecked sections they were talking about sections as a routine farmer management procedure.

SoJoMo wrote: »

Of course vets dont want farmers performing their own c-section s = €200+ - its one of their biggest earners

Take away the cost of the suture materials, medicines, equipment, disinfectants, autoclave to sterilise the kit, gowns and gloves.
Take away the cost of the diesel to get there, the mobile phone rental, the bonus you pay your assistant for getting up at 3 am.
Take away the long term damage done to your back by doing c-sections down when the farmer has dogged it, the kicks from inadequate facilities.

Money is NOT a motivator for veterinary, especially in certain parts of the country. As I assume it is not a motivator for many farmers in those same parts of the country

Traonach

5live wrote: »

. Is it cold up there on that high horse?

2 sections. One on a cow that died waiting for the vet. On the line to the vet when she dropped, heavily pregnant, got the ok from the vet to cut and pull. Live charolais heifer calf which would have died had i not acted. That sure was cruel on the calf, to give her a chance of life:rolleyes:

If the cow was dead how could the calf be alive, since the calf needs the dam to be alive.

One abroad, no vet available, animal would have died, we sectioned and barely kept twins alive, clamped the bleeding and eventually vet arrived and closed her up and prescribed antibiotics.

What did you clamp to stop the bleeding???

LostCovey

Hello Boys & Girls,

Here is today's fable:

A factory had to cease operations when a vital piece of machinery broke down. Try as they might, the firm's own mechanics couldn't get it working again. The factory owner called in an outside expert.

He looked the situation over, listened to the machine, checked some switches and gauges, then went to his tool box. He took a hammer and hit the machine lightly in a certain spot…and it immediately started running beautifully.

He then submitted a bill for €1,000, which made the factory owner hit the ceiling! He demanded an itemised bill.

The expert took back the bill, wrote on it for a moment, then handed it back to the factory owner.

This is what it said:

Item #1 Hitting the machine… €10.00
Item #2 Knowing where to hit…€990.00



And they all lived happily ever after.

LostCovey