How should land be divided in a will [READ MOD NOTICE IN POST #1 BEFORE POSTING!]

pakalasa

I'd say there's alot of NEW interest in the home farm since the property crash and the subsequent rise in farm gate prices.;)

Irish farms and farms in general are Asset Rich and Income Poor. That's it in a nutshell. Ironic but it's only the farmers that farm the land know this.

yourpics

DaNiEl1994 wrote: »

hi guys im 16 and we have farm thats about 35 acres at a push, i, in my mind am thinking i will be inheriting all of it bar a site or two out in lahnch with a good view for my other 4 siblings as i am the ONLY one who has shown interest, id say not a saturday has gone by where i havent been down there working on the farm with my father. no one has ever shown interest in the farm except my older brother who was tought how to drive the tractor at my age and lost all interest in two weeks :rolleyes: never set foot on the farm since.

35 acres is far from the biggest farm in ireland and im nearly 100% certain you guys will agree it cant be farmed full time on that scale. brought up the topic of who gets the farm with the father, he didnt really say anythng much and sort of ignored the subject then my sisters got very angry quickly saying we all deserve a piece of it equally, i said nothing but to me they deserve nothing.

I would agree with you, the person who has a genuine interest and stayed about should get it

Injuryprone

What does it matter if the land is worth €100,000 or €1 million. It's not as if the chosen son/daughter goes out the next day and cashes in the lot. In 99.9% of cases, all that's being inherited is a job/livelihood and I think that most people looking in from the outside only see the asset.
Last year when our land was being transferred to me, the solicitor said to me "You've just been given €1.15 million, where are you going to celebrate?" To which I replied "Might as well have 50 quid for all I'll see of that"
My favoured way to split a farm would be to leave it all to the most interested child, but if any of it were to be sold from now til the next time it's willed, the proceeds of the sale would be split.

5live

yourpics wrote: »

I would agree with you, the person who has a genuine interest and stayed about should get it

Those that put in the work should be rewarded for the effort. I'm not sure what the OP was trying to get across in the post but most on this forum would agree i think.

DaNiEl1994, i would have to agree with you. If you have put in the most effort then you should get the most reward. But maybe your sister put in time elsewhere helping out at home. That should not go unrewarded either.

[MOD snip]

DaNiEl1994

5live maybe you are right some are helpful at times but being her brother i think she does **** all sites not good enough? what else could be given n all honesty farming wise

Rovi

[MOD] Some posts have been removed and others edited.
Nobody has been infracted or sanctioned in any way, but any further trolling or nonsense will be dealt with more robustly. [/MOD]

redzerologhlen

Rovi wrote: »

[MOD] Some posts have been removed and others edited.
Nobody has been infracted or sanctioned in any way, but any further trolling or nonsense will be dealt with more robustly. [/MOD]

Sorry Rovi. It got a bit out of hand alright!!

20silkcut

Has anyone any experience of joint tennancy? I know of two different farms where two siblings working off the same farm turned out very successful and in one case the size of the farm doubled since the hand over. Both were large farms to begin with and I suppose it is hard to see it working on a smaller farm. But the advantages in labour and expertise count for a lot.

1chippy

I would like to just share my experiences. i work fulltime outside of farming and for the last few years only took a back seat with anything to do with it. I went to college, travelled and worked abroad. My younger brother stayed at home and worked the farm. when i returned home my brother wouldnt speak to me as he thought i was threatening his right to the farm. honestly i hadnt any dillusions to any claim on the farm. My father worked it and grew it his whole life it was his to do whatever he wanted, he was good enough to support me through school and college.
I was given a site and spent years fighting with planning but eventually got it. During this time my girlfriend and i bought a house in the local town much to my brothers delight. I still want to build a house though and decide to open the site and build as i could afford. prob 10-15 years realistically.
When the machine moved in war took out on the farm. ( it was exactly a 1 acre site). My brother has banned my parents from having anything to do with their only grandchild. Said he wants nothing to do with any of the family and wamts payment for any of the work he has done over the years. My father has written a good few cheques already.
The main problem is he lives in a house built alongside the farmyard which my parents let him live in the last five years. access is past his back door or other is through his yard. He told them he was moving out but hasnt, my parents dont want him to leave but dont want him to keep fighting with them either they are both getting on in years.
I am back helping my father again as he cant do it on his own. and to be honest i am loving it.
The situation i am in is i believe my brother has every right to the farm as he worked it, altough he treats OUR parents like dirt. I am grateful enough to have received a site and expect no more. i cant get over how hungry he is in this whole situation. I dont want the family split or the farm either but i think this has gone too far. if anyone has any advice it would be appreciated. a reconciliation would be lovely but unlikely. iseem to think that his wife may be driving a lot of this. it is absolutaly killing my parents.

redzerologhlen

1chippy wrote: »

I would like to just share my experiences. i work fulltime outside of farming and for the last few years only took a back seat with anything to do with it. I went to college, travelled and worked abroad. My younger brother stayed at home and worked the farm. when i returned home my brother wouldnt speak to me as he thought i was threatening his right to the farm. honestly i hadnt any dillusions to any claim on the farm. My father worked it and grew it his whole life it was his to do whatever he wanted, he was good enough to support me through school and college.
I was given a site and spent years fighting with planning but eventually got it. During this time my girlfriend and i bought a house in the local town much to my brothers delight. I still want to build a house though and decide to open the site and build as i could afford. prob 10-15 years realistically.
When the machine moved in war took out on the farm. ( it was exactly a 1 acre site). My brother has banned my parents from having anything to do with their only grandchild. Said he wants nothing to do with any of the family and wamts payment for any of the work he has done over the years. My father has written a good few cheques already.
The main problem is he lives in a house built alongside the farmyard which my parents let him live in the last five years. access is past his back door or other is through his yard. He told them he was moving out but hasnt, my parents dont want him to leave but dont want him to keep fighting with them either they are both getting on in years.
I am back helping my father again as he cant do it on his own. and to be honest i am loving it.
The situation i am in is i believe my brother has every right to the farm as he worked it, altough he treats OUR parents like dirt. I am grateful enough to have received a site and expect no more. i cant get over how hungry he is in this whole situation. I dont want the family split or the farm either but i think this has gone too far. if anyone has any advice it would be appreciated. a reconciliation would be lovely but unlikely. iseem to think that his wife may be driving a lot of this. it is absolutaly killing my parents.

That's a crap situation to be in. Your not to blame but I cant really say much only that I hope that ye get to sort it out. It doesnt sound fair what hes doing to your parents and if you father left you the site I cant see the massive problem. Sure you only got an acre and you are his brother afterall. I hope you get to work it out anyway man!!

mallethead

I believe splitting a farm is wrong and it should be only give to someone who will mind it and try increase and grow its size . We don't own it we're only minding it for the next generation .
If it is split its gone and will be hard to get back .
As for giving money to siblings who show no intrest i say no .
I agreeded to give a brother a site on the condition he built his house and never sold it , as i don't want strangers near me .he has a house and an apartment and lives in dublin coming home rarely to see my parents .
i have been informed he wants to sell me the site even before he gets it as he has no intrest in living there . i feel a chance for one of my children to build has been taken so he can live the high life

eddiej

Hi all, can well understand situation 1 sibling does farm others have no interest etc. However IMO the farm is fathers and mothers and is theirs to do with whatever they want. They gave all of us an education and gave sites when wanted (only 1 of 3). If any of us are lucky enough to get it or its sold and some get it well great but if not so be it. I know all of us have jobs and dont rely on it though 2 of us work in ag/hort so easy use farm. Farm may be needed to fund nursding home medical etc. so really its up to the folks and what comes if any comes.

Agree prob when 1 sibling is actively farming but feel as things progress this should be dealt with sooner and long before (hopefully) times of reading wills. Wills should be made and crazy not to.

MungoMan

It's crazy, there must be thousands of families in acrinomy over who gets what when the time comes for a farm to be passed on to the next generation.

I suppose human nature is self centered, some people want what they can get, they want their slice of the cake, and some other people expect to get it all.

What I don't quite understand is why there near total consensus in this thread that a farm needs to be passed on, that a farm needs to continue on in the family name through the generations.

A farm is just an asset, a fairly liquid asset, which can be bought and sold at any time. A bit like a bag of gold.
Wouldn't it avoid a lot of acrinomy if a farmer were to say to his/her children at a young age, that nobody would inherit the farm, that it would one day be sold to the highest bidder, and the money divided equally amongst everyone.
That would be a great headstart for everyone in life, and some of the children could buy some smaller farm, or a nice house somewhere.
There would be no acrinomy then, there couldnt possibly be any acrinomy, it would be so fair and democratic.


I know in some families, there are some people who simply must inherit the farm because they don't get an opportunity, or are not inclined to get an education or a trade, and for that reason, they probably deserve to inherit the farm (or else they might have to go on the dole all their life).

But in other cases, surely selling and dividing is a very fair option.

deus ex machina 7

There will be no more family farm inheritance. When parents get old and have to go into a nursing home, with the so called Fair Deal, where fees are more than 1,000 euro per week, the new deal is to hand over the family farm deeds to nursing home operators to pay their exorbitant fees; if you have a house hand over the keys; if you have a car hand those keys over too. Welcome to the new world folks. The new bankers are nursing home operators who will have no mercy when it comes to selling the family farm.

whelan1

thanks for that first post

pakalasa

I am very distrustful of first posts !!

Rovi

deus ex machina 7 wrote: »

There will be no more family farm inheritance. When parents get old and have to go into a nursing home, with the so called Fair Deal, where fees are more than 1,000 euro per week, the new deal is to hand over the family farm deeds to nursing home operators to pay their exorbitant fees; if you have a house hand over the keys; if you have a car hand those keys over too. Welcome to the new world folks. The new bankers are nursing home operators who will have no mercy when it comes to selling the family farm.

An excellent reason to put these sort of affairs in order BEFORE the funeral or nursing home scenario becomes an immediate emergency operation.

pakalasa

Maybe all farmers should just get the snip after the first child is born.
Save a lot of hassle.

deus ex machina 7

What's wrong with my first post?

Rovi

deus ex machina 7 wrote: »

What's wrong with my first post?

Nothing in particular, it's just that when someone new suddenly appears and makes a pretty strongly worded statement on a subject, the 'regulars' eyebrows get raised and they wonder "What's this guy's story?".

It's the Internet manifestation of the suspicious/curious nature of Irish farmers.

Welcome to the Farming & Forestry section of Boards.ie.

pakalasa

deus ex machina 7,
Nothing at all wrong with your first post.I was just making a generic comment. Welcome to Boards, by the way.

Just suspicious of first posts. Often a regular will make up a new Username just to have a go at a competitor's product or something similar. Seen a few plug their own products here as well.

hurling_lad

MungoMan wrote: »

It's crazy, there must be thousands of families in acrinomy over who gets what when the time comes for a farm to be passed on to the next generation.

I suppose human nature is self centered, some people want what they can get, they want their slice of the cake, and some other people expect to get it all.

What I don't quite understand is why there near total consensus in this thread that a farm needs to be passed on, that a farm needs to continue on in the family name through the generations.

A farm is just an asset, a fairly liquid asset, which can be bought and sold at any time. A bit like a bag of gold.
Wouldn't it avoid a lot of acrinomy if a farmer were to say to his/her children at a young age, that nobody would inherit the farm, that it would one day be sold to the highest bidder, and the money divided equally amongst everyone.
That would be a great headstart for everyone in life, and some of the children could buy some smaller farm, or a nice house somewhere.
There would be no acrinomy then, there couldnt possibly be any acrinomy, it would be so fair and democratic.


I know in some families, there are some people who simply must inherit the farm because they don't get an opportunity, or are not inclined to get an education or a trade, and for that reason, they probably deserve to inherit the farm (or else they might have to go on the dole all their life).

But in other cases, surely selling and dividing is a very fair option.

Everyone here seems to be forgetting that most farmers are only following a very strong precedent when deciding to hand their farm on to a single child - the fact that they themselves generally inherited the farm in preference to their own siblings. If the decision made sense for their parents, little reason to believe that it shouldn't make sense for the following generation.

Some of the people here who blithely declare that the farm should be split evenly (who gets the yard & buildings?) or that the "wannabe farmer" should buy out his other siblings' shares with a mortgage must have very little experience of commercial farming or obtaining finance from Irish banks at present.

sarsfield06

I'd like people's opinion, my mother has handed all the land (few hundred acres) to one of my brothers who is the farmer in residence due to marry this year. Three other siblings (married) left out. There has never been any open discussion on who would get what but would have expected better communication, especially from my farmer brother who knew what was being planned. Want people's opinions on fairness of this situation?

MungoMan

You say you would have expected better communication from your brother who is inheriting everything.
I wouldn't blame your brother, people are inherently selfish, why would he initiate communication when the communication might result in a worse deal for him ?
If your brother was trying to promote openess, he might end up with less than several hundred acres. This would leave him with less assets to pass on to his future heirs ! The truth is blunt.


It's not too late though, as long as the legal owner of the land is still alive, you can still bring up the discussion as to the fairness of giving one person everything, and everyone else nothing.
There is a massive difference between everything and nothing, maybe some compromise can be reached.

I don't think it's human nature to be happy when there is one pie, and one person gets all of the pie. Even a bunch of school children see the fairness in dividing things up.

But you definitely need to bring up the discussion before it's too late.

IrishLad2012

sarsfield06 wrote: »

I'd like people's opinion, my mother has handed all the land (few hundred acres) to one of my brothers who is the farmer in residence due to marry this year. Three other siblings (married) left out. There has never been any open discussion on who would get what but would have expected better communication, especially from my farmer brother who knew what was being planned. Want people's opinions on fairness of this situation?

Did you ever work on the farm or show an interest in the place?
Wills and inheritance can be tricky business,definitely how a lot of family feuds start.

Milton09

sarsfield06 wrote: »

I'd like people's opinion, my mother has handed all the land (few hundred acres) to one of my brothers who is the farmer in residence due to marry this year. Three other siblings (married) left out. There has never been any open discussion on who would get what but would have expected better communication, especially from my farmer brother who knew what was being planned. Want people's opinions on fairness of this situation?

From the information supplied and for the reasons highlighted above, it sounds fair to me, but then again maybe the other siblings are farmers too?

redzerologhlen

sarsfield06 wrote: »

I'd like people's opinion, my mother has handed all the land (few hundred acres) to one of my brothers who is the farmer in residence due to marry this year. Three other siblings (married) left out. There has never been any open discussion on who would get what but would have expected better communication, especially from my farmer brother who knew what was being planned. Want people's opinions on fairness of this situation?

To be honest whatever way it is divided someone is going to feel they didnt get what they were entitled to. In Ireland if you dont inherit land there is no chance of ever becoming a full time farmer really, The chances of leasing a holding big enough and for long enough to have confidence to invest in it are slim to nil. Prices for agricultural land dont relate whatsoever to any form of income from agriculture. I assume your brother is full time with a couple of hundred acres but could be wrong...Dont attack me for this because this thread got a bit heated before but in my opinion it sounds fair enough. In my opinion if the farm is big enough for a family to live off then leave it because very few are. If it was split between the two of ye both of you would probably have to get a full time job and the farm would just be a hobby and more than likely ye would never be able to expand to a viable size for full time farming. At the end of the day it was your mother who made the call, I would say respect her decision and try not to fall out with them, You ony have one family!!

IrishLad2012

Was just thinking of about this thread today and thought of a quite humerous story of how a local man sorted his will.

He was married with no children but had two nephews.He owned a fairly large farm that he always worked himself.His wives nephews were farmers but they never would have helped him on his farm.He never got on that well with them.

So when he took sick,he knew that he would die before his partner and knew she would leave everything to her nephews.

So of course the nephews stocked the land during his sickness and had everyone told how they would be inheriting this great farm.

So this man passed away and they opened the will.He left half the farm to St.Vincent De Paul and half to his wife.She signed over her half to the nephews but they had to buy the rest off St.Vincent De Paul.

Farmer Pudsey

MungoMan wrote: »

[MOD] It is apparent that this subject can be somewhat emotive and that people have strong feelings and opinions on it.
That's fine, so long as discussion and comment is conducted in a polite and calm manner.
Trolling, name calling, and other nonsense WILL lead to infractions or bans!

Have a read of the forum Charter, particularly the bit about personal abuse, threats, trolling, offensiveness.

Carry on, and play nice. [/MOD]


I know there is no right answer to this question...just matter of opinion.


Suppose a farmer aged 75 is making a will.

He has a few children (say 3 children)

All 3 children have equally stable jobs, earning about the same amount.

One of the children lives at home in a house built on the farm, but he works in a good secure job. He likes farming on the side, and its convenient to farm, as he lives beside the land.

Should the farmer making the will give all his assets to the one living beside the farm (and distribute none of his wealth to the others) ?

I think most farmers would probably do this, as they would want some degree of succession, someone to maintain the old lifestyle.

But I know a farmer who recently in his will divided his assets equally among all his children, it was sold, and the money divided equally......sounded so fair, none of the children could say that one got more than another (as is ofter said when the winner takes it all)

Any views on what a farmer should do ?

Depends on if this farmer inherited it or purchased it himself

1chippy

Who looked after their parents and who genuinely cared for them. there is far too much greed in this country and a sense of right or entitlement to something their parents worked so hard for. basically the parents should do what makes them feel right and all the bitching and moaning from people here isnt going to make any of us happy. i am in a situation with simularities to a lot of the above mentioned. no matter what happens i know my parents have always done their best by me. whatever they decide i will just have to accept it. life is way too short.

eyescreamcone

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Depends on if this farmer inherited it or purchased it himself

Why does it?
Can the present owner not decide to pass on his assets as he sees fit?
Regardless of how those assets came into his possession!

JohnBoy

if the farmer bought it then it's just an asset.


but if he inherited it then it's llllannnnnndddddd!!!!!!!




which is different

eyescreamcone

That's what I thought
Crazy culchies, let them at it!!!

Username John

eyescreamcone wrote: »

That's what I thought
Crazy culchies, let them at it!!!

Hello eyescreamcone,

Its hard thing to explain - a farm whilst a business & an asset, can also be a bit like a family heirloom.

It maybe that your grandfather / great grandfather, etc bought it. And each generation worked it, adding their mark, until it came to you & then you add your mark...

But not all people would see it like this either.

Dazzler88

Just a quick question guys.A neighbour of mine approached me in a bit of a fluster.

He was wondering can his son in law claim a stake on his estate,he had received a letter from his son in law stating that he wants 1/3 of the estate now.Is this lawful?

My neighbour is going to a solicitor to seek advice but just thought I'd find out some info here first.

Markcheese

Dazzler88 wrote: »

Just a quick question guys.A neighbour of mine approached me in a bit of a fluster.

He was wondering can his son in law claim a stake on his estate,he had received a letter from his son in law stating that he wants 1/3 of the estate now.Is this lawful?

My neighbour is going to a solicitor to seek advice but just thought I'd find out some info here first.

Ha Ha Ha, brave move by the son in law.... Dumb,but brave.....
If your neighbour had died without a will, the son in law would prob get a share.
He doesn't HAVE to give anyone anything while he's alive.. And he could leave the lot to the donkey sanctuary in a will if he really wants.... Or all to 1 son ... Once he sorts a will out.....

Indubitable

If a relative tried that on me he/she wouldn't get a single red cent.

djmc

I dont know much about the law but I think if his wife owned the farm in her own name and died without a will he would be entitled to half and the children would be entitled to the rest between them.

Dazzler88

Markcheese wrote: »

Ha Ha Ha, brave move by the son in law.... Dumb,but brave.....

My thoughts exactly.I advised him to Will all to his only son.

moy83

Dazzler88 wrote: »

My thoughts exactly.I advised him to Will all to his only son.

Would you not have chanced asking him to will it to you while he was flustered :D:D

whelan1

Dazzler88 wrote: »

My thoughts exactly.I advised him to Will all to his only son.

out of interest how many daughters has he? is the son interested in farming?

Farmer Pudsey

djmc wrote: »

I dont know much about the law but I think if his wife owned the farm in her own name and died without a will he would be entitled to half and the children would be entitled to the rest between them.

In this senario I think the spouse gets 2/3 of the estate and the childern are entitled to 1/3 however this would only be what is in the Wife's name. For instance if the herd no, SFP, and tax was completed in the Husbands name all stock and cash i/h would more than likely be considered his so he would only have to find 1/3 the value of the farm to share amoung childern. Also any bank accounts that are in joint names are considered his

PatQfarmer

Having reached my 40's, with kids of my own, I can see both sides of this problem, because it really IS a problem for farming families.
While the parents are alive, it is their land, however, in many cases a son or daughter stays at home and helps out, usually ending up running the farm.
Other siblings get put through college, or helped with houses etc if the funds are there, but the value of land(which we all know bears no relationship to it's earning potential!) means that a transfer of a large acreage to one individual can make the others feel "left out".
My view is that the child that stays at home, helping their parents farm, should receive primary consideration for inheritance.
They are the one "putting up" with and "minding" their parents, but usually in a good way. The others arrive like seagulls, "sh1t on everything" and fly off again:)
It is unlikely that, having farmed all their lives, the beneficiary will suddenly stop and cash it all in, so while they get a valuable asset, they will only benefit from the work they put into it.
Those of us who choose not to stay on the family farm (myself included) need to realise:
a) It is our parents land to do with as they see fit.
b) It is only fair that the stay-at-home sibling gets the largest share(or all) of the land.
Consider how any child of a farmer would feel if the farmer started telling them what to do with their own assets?
In my business, I have seen lots of families torn apart by such disputes.
I have seen many a farmer worry for years about how to frame a will.
It is important that every farmer has a will that reflects what they feel is fair, but it is essential that they have a will in any event. They can change it as often as they like:)

Tipp Man

So what exactly happens if a farmer doesn't have a will made and kicks the bucket?

Does wife have 50% claim and remaining kids 50% claim?

5live

Tipp Man wrote: »

So what exactly happens if a farmer doesn't have a will made and kicks the bucket?

Does wife have 50% claim and remaining kids 50% claim?

2/3 for the spouse and 1/3 divided among the children/their spouses as farmer pudsey said

Dazzler88

whelan1 wrote: »

out of interest how many daughters has he? is the son interested in farming?

One daughter and one son.Sadly neither have an interest in farming,nor does the son in law.Probably whoever gets it will sell.

whelan1

Dazzler88 wrote: »

One daughter and one son.Sadly neither have an interest in farming,nor does the son in law.Probably whoever gets it will sell.

pure greed on the son in laws part, if i was the old man i would sell it now and put the money in shares or something to be sure the son in law sees none of it

Dazzler88

whelan1 wrote: »

pure greed on the son in laws part, if i was the old man i would sell it now and put the money in shares or something to be sure the son in law sees none of it

I would be of the same thinking but the poor man thinks if his sons gets the place he'll farm it.

Tipp Man

Why would the son in law be less likely to get some of the shares as oppossed to some of the land??

whelan1

Tipp Man wrote: »

Why would the son in law be less likely to get some of the shares as oppossed to some of the land??

was assuming the value of the shares invested in would plummet:rolleyes: