Suckler setup

Corkfarmer

Looking into starting a suckler herd of my own at home, starting small. Seems to be the best option for me as I'll only be part time. I know I'm not going to make much if any money but I still want to do it as I'll be inheriting the farm in a few years and would like to keep an interest. Its all dairy around me and would know more about it but dairying isn't an option for me.

I'm looking for advice on breeds etc. Was thinking of buying some weanling heifers and bulling them next spring/summer having a spring calving herd. Was looking at black limousins to breed good quality calves for the weanling trade.
Any thoughts suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

sprouty

I think for anybody part time sucklng that ease of calving has to be top of the wish list.
A functional cow with enough milk & good temprement that can produce & rear a calf each year is the target. For me I try not to have too much Lim in the cow as I use a Lim bull & like as much hybrid vigor as possible.
Best of luck with it.

49801

personally in your situation i'd avoid limmy breeding for your hiefers.
you want a breed that has plenty milk. Simmental is the obvious breed and is in vogue atm. with good reason IMO. only downside is large size of cow and large amount of feeding
with angus u might struggle with the value of your weanling.
avoid milking breeds... only exception to this rule is british fresian.
heraford are docile and reasonably easy calving. seem to struggle on carcuss value a little on the statistics though.
Charolis breeding has great size but lack milk like limmys
Blondes i dont know enough about.
We're going to try a few Salers here as we disposed of our salers stock bull.
Salers do calf very well. am unsure about milk traits. reputation for being wild like limmys

just my thoughts

Highland

I would use lim X fr - they are a great cow for milk and will rear the heaviest calf and are easy calving + maintained. Had 30 of these a few years ago and used to cross them with a char bull - used to be in the top price bracket at weanling sales. Subsequently stoped buying bucket fed limos and crossbred my cows with simmental etc - just ended up with big cows, less milk and to be honest lighter calves that were not much better. Black Limos cross well with white Belgian Blue bulls, and I got some smashing BBX calves out of my 1/2bred cows. _ used the bull EDJ

Not suckling anymore as doing a lot of travelling with work but if I was starting a herd again I would start with Lim x Fr again. These were the top cows in Grange for the last 20 years when Michael Drennan was doing research & have shown up tops in the lastest research from Derrrypatrick

Just my opinion - best of luck with the new enterprise

pakalasa

Whatever the breed, get heifers that are extra big in the hips. Get them as quiet as possible too. One wild one will give you more grief than all the others put together. Buy more than you iintend keeping and cull some even before you put them in calf.
Will you have a bull or AI?

Corkfarmer

Ya I'd say I'll go for the lim x fr. Is it a good idea to try and calve them down at 24 months starting off?

redzerologhlen

Corkfarmer wrote: »

Ya I'd say I'll go for the lim x fr. Is it a good idea to try and calve them down at 24 months starting off?

It would be ideal if they were big enough and would be calving at the right time of the year.

Joe the Plumber

All good advice above for you corkfarmer,

But if there is a lot of dairy men around you might be worth considering pedigree breeding. Angus/Hereford for the bull trade. (heifers also good.)

Not as much trouble as people make it out to be. have a few myself and they are no bother.

Just an idea to widen the thinking...moreover if you are starting off with small numbers, they would be more fun.

HillFarmer

Agree re Lim X FR but the problem these days is where can you buy Lim X Friesian??

bogman_bass

if you are in dairy country maybe BBxFR is an option. You need to use an easy calving bull but the cow will give you shape plus no shortage of milk. And most important of all they are their quite

49801

am a bit flabbergasted that so many are advocating using FRx breeding.
thin bony cows built for milk.
the cow contributes an equal amount of genetic material as a bull.

with the grid payment system it really does encourage properly shaped offspring from continental breeding.

I know there has been some research encouraging the use of FR done in Ireland in the past and I am not terribly familiar with it. But i do feel that the more recent derrypatrick research of pursuing fr crosses is to the advantage of the dairy industry and our national sucker herd will deteriorate as a result

just my opinion of course

Tipp Man

49801 wrote: »

am a bit flabbergasted that so many are advocating using FRx breeding.
thin bony cows built for milk.
the cow contributes an equal amount of genetic material as a bull.

with the grid payment system it really does encourage properly shaped offspring from continental breeding.

I know there has been some research encouraging the use of FR done in Ireland in the past and I am not terribly familiar with it. But i do feel that the more recent derrypatrick research of pursuing fr crosses is to the advantage of the dairy industry and our national sucker herd will deteriorate as a result

just my opinion of course

There is a huge difference between a proper Fr cow and a holstein Fr cow

A proper British Fr cow is a brilliant animal to breed from. Not every animal needs to be an E grade. And a lim, AA or WH from 1 of these cows will be an excellent animal for Irish conditions IMO

Funny you mention the grid because the most valuable animal per kg of carcase in future will be an angus when this massive bonus kicks in

redzerologhlen

I dont think there is any right or wrong system really TBH. Everyone has a different setup so find one that suits you. If your selling weanlings as an all rounder its hard to beat a charolais calf but black cows wont suit this system. They are not all that bad calving either, We had them here for ten years and never had any major problems with them. The steam is gone out of blues unless you have a right one and its a bit hit and miss with them, its hard to get a cow to breed an export quality blue. Limo's are a good all rounder too, They are not all mad either. We have them this year and I could do what I want with them by myself but god forbid you bring a stranger with you looking at them, as long as they see you regularly they will be fairly quiet. Angus is an option and very easy look after but to be making the most out of them i think you need to bring them through to beef. Make sure you know the market you are targeting and breed decision should be based on that and how much time you have to devote to cows calving and things and experience around them. Everyone has their own preferences. I couldnt say much about the limo x fr cow because were a long way from dairy country here and I havnt come across many of them but there's a lot of good reports about them if a right one can be got.

49801

Tipp Man wrote: »

There is a huge difference between a proper Fr cow and a holstein Fr cow

A proper British Fr cow is a brilliant animal to breed from. Not every animal needs to be an E grade. And a lim, AA or WH from 1 of these cows will be an excellent animal for Irish conditions IMO

Funny you mention the grid because the most valuable animal per kg of carcase in future will be an angus when this massive bonus kicks in

yes you articulated what I was thinking much better.

I suppose my fear would be of the holstein genetics in the fresian animal.
dairy men are including holstein in their herds for Ferrari type cows. .
herd complaints about too much holstein in SI's too

every1 knows a continental out of a british fresian cow can be a fantastic sucker cow.
but where to get them is the trouble? dairy industry is moving a different direction.

also agree about the not needing E grading cows and in fact can cause more calving trouble. R grades work just fine.

i see where you are coming from with the agus... my concern is they just dont have the overall weight and there is more than one part of a carcuss that has to be sold in the shops.

so back on-topic
British Fresian good
Holstien terrible.

but there are other breeds out there.
Bazadaise are interesting too and appear to be Salers with shape but a bit specialised

Tipp Man

49801 wrote: »

yes you articulated what I was thinking much better.

I suppose my fear would be of the holstein genetics in the fresian animal.
dairy men are including holstein in their herds for Ferrari type cows. .
herd complaints about too much holstein in SI's too

every1 knows a continental out of a british fresian cow can be a fantastic sucker cow.
but where to get them is the trouble? dairy industry is moving a different direction.

also agree about the not needing E grading cows and in fact can cause more calving trouble. R grades work just fine.

i see where you are coming from with the agus... my concern is they just dont have the overall weight and there is more than one part of a carcuss that has to be sold in the shops.

so back on-topic
British Fresian good
Holstien terrible.

but there are other breeds out there.
Bazadaise are interesting too and appear to be Salers with shape but a bit specialised

i think the ever increasing use of Jersey in dairy is nearly a bigger problem than Holstien for beef farmers dependant on either cattle or replacement heifers from the dairy side

pakalasa

You've got to remember that before the milk quotas came along, most cows were Britsh Friesan types. You'd have to wonder when the quotas go, will things revert back to some extinct, to the way they were. When things level out again, the higher price for a decent calf may swing things again. It's crazy that, at a cost of roughly 500 Euro to keep a suckler cow, the calves coming from the Dairy herd are worthless for Beef.
We finished all Friesans bullocks in the past, and over 90% of them would grade R.

leg wax

what does it cost to keep a dairy cow,i presume its the same.

Corkfarmer

€500 always seemed an awful lot to me to keep a cow. Could someone break it down a bit more. Id say theres alot of fixed costs like expensive machinery and buildings included in that figure for most farms.

blue5000

Corkfarmer wrote: »

€500 always seemed an awful lot to me to keep a cow. Could someone break it down a bit more. Id say theres alot of fixed costs like expensive machinery and buildings included in that figure for most farms.

Its a rough figure got by dividing total costs on a suckler farm by the number of cows on the farm. The fixed costs are going to vary depending on the stage of development on the farm, recent expenses on slurry storage have to be paid for. If a farm has older buildings which are depreciated off, costs will be lower.
Also machinery/contractor costs are going to vary. Contractor costs are variable, but machinery depreciation is a fixed cost. If a farmer has his own silage/slurry gear that is depreciated off then costs will be lower.

Teagasc have done a good booklet 'Working towards a profitable future in drystock' Well worth a look.
http://www.teagasc.ie/publications/2011/1031/EprofitDrystock2010.pdf

bbam

Corkfarmer wrote: »

€500 always seemed an awful lot to me to keep a cow. Could someone break it down a bit more. Id say theres alot of fixed costs like expensive machinery and buildings included in that figure for most farms.

Here's what we work of, not saying we're most advanced or that our record keeping is tops but it does add up supprisingly fast..
I often hear the €600 figure bounced around, not supprising if you head for top stock and have any repayments on machinery/land or rental for ground..

€100.00 Cow cost, annualised
€285.00 Silage Costs
€20.00 Concentrates
€10.00 Minerals/Doseage
€20.00 Misc Vetinary
€25.00 Straw
€40.00 Grass production

€500.00 Total

Corkfarmer

[/QUOTE]Teagasc have done a good booklet 'Working towards a profitable future in drystock' Well worth a look.
http://www.teagasc.ie/publications/2011/1031/EprofitDrystock2010.pdf[/QUOTE]
Thats interesting alright, that case study farm is only back the road from me. Thats the kind of system Id like to run apart from finishing the animals.

Corkfarmer

bbam wrote: »

Here's what we work of, not saying we're most advanced or that our record keeping is tops but it does add up supprisingly fast..
I often hear the €600 figure bounced around, not supprising if you head for top stock and have any repayments on machinery/land or rental for ground..

€100.00 Cow cost, annualised
€285.00 Silage Costs
€20.00 Concentrates
€10.00 Minerals/Doseage
€20.00 Misc Vetinary
€25.00 Straw
€40.00 Grass production

€500.00 Total

It doesn't be long adding up, Hopefully I'd be able to cut the silage bill as I've a fairly dry farm and could let stock out early.

Corkfarmer

Id say something like these would be the animals for me http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/beefcattle/2564983

sprouty

Anybody know much about stabiliser cows-I hear that they're a type of composite suckler getting popular in England?.....better still anybody got some??

epfff

bbam wrote: »

Corkfarmer wrote: »

€500 always seemed an awful lot to me to keep a cow. Could someone break it down a bit more. Id say theres alot of fixed costs like expensive machinery and buildings included in that figure for most farms.

Here's what we work of, not saying we're most advanced or that our record keeping is tops but it does add up supprisingly fast..
I often hear the €600 figure bounced around, not supprising if you head for top stock and have any repayments on machinery/land or rental for ground..

€100.00 Cow cost, annualised
€285.00 Silage Costs
€20.00 Concentrates
€10.00 Minerals/Doseage
€20.00 Misc Vetinary
€25.00 Straw
€40.00 Grass production

€500.00 Total

I have a fair bit of dry ground away from home
Close it end june early july Put cows into it a week after weaning late october about one cow per acre lasts them until early february usually when they start calfing. then try to get them back out on grass on home farm as quickly ss possiable after calfing to avoid disease as much as cost.
get away with very little silage(mainly straw) before calfing.
so I estimate 300 per year

Pat the lad

sprouty wrote: »

Anybody know much about stabiliser cows-I hear that they're a type of composite suckler getting popular in England?.....better still anybody got some??

there's abit about them on fwi and farmers guardian across the pond. cross between herford/Angus/Simmental I think.
I like the look of the south Devon cow also- good shape, plenty of milk and very docile,
had hoped to get into a few parthenaise heifers myself this year, but didn't work out. had hopeed to breed bb's off them

hard to know what's the best cow to be honest. hard to beat having a bit of Simmental in the blood for milk.
have a handful of pb sim & lim's cows, was playing with the idea of going fully pb commerical herd- selling calves at 9-12 months? anyone doing this? breeding bb's off them at the mo.

1chippy

I personally like a good sizey lim cow out of a simmental mother. bred with nearly anything. as far as i can make out the whole secret is to have your animals calved down by christmas. this gives you a better chance to have the weanlings up around the 400kg mark in the autumn without blowing a crazy amount on meal.
This leaves it easy for farmers to get them finished without holding them for another winter thus making them more valuable

bbam

epfff wrote: »

I have a fair bit of dry ground away from home
Close it end june early july Put cows into it a week after weaning late october about one cow per acre lasts them until early february usually when they start calfing. then try to get them back out on grass on home farm as quickly ss possiable after calfing to avoid disease as much as cost.
get away with very little silage(mainly straw) before calfing.
so I estimate 300 per year

Thats where we were getting hit..
We had to plan to get the cows off the ground by mid November and hoped to have them out in April... I've seen them in from Nov1 to May1 which just couldn't continue.. :eek:

Corkfarmer

What do people think about cattle prices? Is it just a bubble, will I lose my shirt getting in now?

blue5000

Depends what you are buying, I can't see much return on buying a suckler cow with calf at foot for 2k. On the other hand if you've silage made and you want to fill a shed cull cows might be an option?

Corkfarmer

blue5000 wrote: »

Depends what you are buying, I can't see much return on buying a suckler cow with calf at foot for 2k. On the other hand if you've silage made and you want to fill a shed cull cows might be an option?

Thats not a bad idea, get the calf raised anyway and off to the factory then. Even weanling heifers are making mad money.

Dozer1

I'd figure out where you're going to sell your stock aswell.
From what I can see either guys in the west are either breeding bigger and better cattle or else there is better demand for them, reason I say it is from the being at marts in Limerick and Kerry you only see some of the weanlings making the 1000euro + and in my eyes they're good stock.

Don't get me wrong they are still getting good prices but not the same as some of the prices you see reported from the marts on a site like farmersforum.ie.

To that end are you better off with a higher stocking rate with angus or hereford cows and running an angus bull.
Yes you don't get the higher prices but on the flip side you have easier calving and with a bit of luck more calves on the ground and there seems to be a big market for angus aswell.

reilig

I'd be weary of cull cows. There can be a lot of issues with them:
Bad feet
Mastitis
Thieves (Jumping high fences)
Wicked
may have a sickness
may be in calf and have no milk for calf when born.

Cull prices are high at the moment, but if beef prices are cut, they'll be the first to drop in price.
Also, if you want to put condition on a cow and have her suitable for salughter, you need a big framed cow. A small framed cow won't make big prices at finishing. Big framed cull cows are expensive currently. Don't fool yourself by buying small framed cows cheaply!!

flatout11

TBH a quality (in visual terms) springer will always sell - the limxfr is an option, shouldnt be hard to source in cork, but when trade was slower these plainer type cows were tight making €1000 on the piont of calving, now i am not knocking the merits of this type of cow just that doesnt always come into reckoning in the sales ring
the sim ropute may be a more viable option long term - if you can source them as weanlings