Blood Testing in Irish MMA

John Ferguson

Following from the announcement that Graham and the guys at Cage Warriors have introduced mandatory blood testing, I think this is something that as a community we should adopt their position and introduce it across the board.

I have txt every promoter in Ireland this afternoon with the following:

"Message to Irish MMA promoters:

Guys following Cage Warriors announcement that they have introduced blood testing I think this is something that we all should do, it has been spoken about before.

My suggestion is that we all agree to introduce it at pro level for now. The fighter would have to provide the test etc. Then to fairly cover the cost we pay a fighter a separate "Bloods" fee of £20 each time that fighter is on our cards.

This will only work if we all agree and stick together on it."



I can't see any reason for not doing this as a community. Does anybody have a reason why we don't?

paulmclaughlin

Would it not be useful at C class as well?

John Ferguson

paulmclaughlin wrote: »

Would it not be useful at C class as well?

Of course it would, but I think this needs to be done one step at a time.

paulmclaughlin

John Ferguson wrote: »

Of course it would, but I think this needs to be done one step at a time.

Suppose you're right. This is a good step forward for the Irish MMA scene anyway.

SBG Ireland

as and from 2012 no SBG Pro fighter will be on a show that does not have this policy.

John Ferguson

SBG Ireland wrote: »

as and from 2012 no SBG Pro fighter will be on a show that does not have this policy.

Great! Now any other clubs going to take this stand?

theboxingclinic

We also support this, it's a fantastic step forward by Graham Boylan and great to see it being taken up here as well.

David Jones

I think this is an excellent step forward both in terms of fighter, coach and referee safety and also as a more visible step forward to try and improve the public/media image of MMA.

From 2012 I will only referee pro fights for promotions that adopt this policy.

This sport is finally maturing!

John Ferguson

Thus far we have agreement from:



Cage Contender

Man of War

Chaos FC

SBG Ireland

The Boxing Clinic

Dave Jones

Dancor

Are ya looking for ped's or stuff like aids, hep etc

theboxingclinic

Blood borne diseases not peds


Quote=Dancor;74879208]Are ya looking for ped's or stuff like aids, hep etc[/Quote]

weemate

David Jones wrote: »

I think this is an excellent step forward both in terms of fighter, coach and referee safety and also as a more visible step forward to try and improve the public/media image of MMA.

From 2012 I will only referee pro fights for promotions that adopt this policy.

This sport is finally maturing!

its about time........I second this

Barry.Oglesby

My shows will also have this policy from 2012. I recommend using a simple google database to record times and dates of blood tests which the refs can witness and monitor.

manga_10

Sounds good but the problem is who will regulate these procedures and make sure that appropriate samples are being used etc. Tampering with samples happens at all levels in different sports look at cycling with the increase of EPOs etc.

John Ferguson

manga_10 wrote: »

Sounds good but the problem is who will regulate these procedures and make sure that appropriate samples are being used etc. Tampering with samples happens at all levels in different sports look at cycling with the increase of EPOs etc.

I see it as being very simple.

Fighter goes to doctor once a year like they do in boxing, gets all clear and a blood cert. Fighter then provides the promoter with the cert each time they fight.

At Cage Contender the blood cert will become part of the medical, no blood cert = failed medical = no fight

Barry.Oglesby

Why would anyone tamper with a blood sample to find out if they were ill or not?

cowzerp

manga_10 wrote: »

Sounds good but the problem is who will regulate these procedures and make sure that appropriate samples are being used etc. Tampering with samples happens at all levels in different sports look at cycling with the increase of EPOs etc.

If it was for peds I'd agree but no 1 is going to lie about aids, hepatitis etc..
I'm pretty sure people with diseased like that would stop fighting and would not ask anyone to fake the testing for that.

Let's try not to overcomplicate this and a start is better than nothing, I think we need to discuss what fighters need to do and how they can do it etc

theboxingclinic

It is not to test for peds!

manga_10 wrote: »

Sounds good but the problem is who will regulate these procedures and make sure that appropriate samples are being used etc. Tampering with samples happens at all levels in different sports look at cycling with the increase of EPOs etc.

theboxingclinic

Should this not be done before each fight to make the testing as effective as possible

John Ferguson wrote: »

manga_10 wrote: »

Sounds good but the problem is who will regulate these procedures and make sure that appropriate samples are being used etc. Tampering with samples happens at all levels in different sports look at cycling with the increase of EPOs etc.

I see it as being very simple.

Fighter goes to doctor once a year like they do in boxing, gets all clear and a blood cert. Fighter then provides the promoter with the cert each time they fight.

At Cage Contender the blood cert will become part of the medical, no blood cert = failed medical = no fight

Clive

Is it not fairly standard in the States and across Europe that the blood test should be within six months of the event?

Fair play to Cage Contender for covering some portion of the costs for fighters, hopefully other promoters will follow suit.

theboxingclinic

Standard in the states, in fact I'm sure in the states they have a test before each fight, I may be wrong, I'll ask Jake Hecht tomorrow for clarification on that. has not been done at all in Europe!

Clive wrote: »

Is it not fairly standard in the States and across Europe that the blood test should be within six months of the event?

Fair play to Cage Contender for covering some portion of the costs for fighters, hopefully other promoters will follow suit.

Raze_them_all

I always got one after a fight for the next fight when I was competing was for myself just as much as any promotor that asked for it.

Can only be good for the sport

SBG Ireland

theboxingclinic wrote: »

has not been done at all in Europe!

its standard in sweden

usually has to be redone every 6mths

John Ferguson

SBG Ireland wrote: »

its standard in sweden

usually has to be redone every 6mths

As far as I am aware Dave O Donnell has been doing it for a while now and there was talk on here about the ISKA requiring pro fighters to have bloods tested.

It's great to see individual promotions introducing testing, but it will be a much bigger thing if we can get agreement and introduce it across a whole country/community. This is another way that we can all practice what we preach in regard to fighter safety.

Barry.Oglesby

"Europe" covers a lot of jurisdictions! I think they do it in Germany and Finland too.

A yearly medical isn't too much to ask and really only costs about €50 for a consultation plus the blood testing costs, which last time I got one were included in the consultation fee. Either way as long as the promoters agree to add a €20 fee to your purse you'll recover it.

The biggest prize for anyone serious about being a professional fighter though has to be the peace of mind of knowing that the guy who might bleed onto you across the cage has had the same tests!

reganreggie

This is a great idea and a big step for Irish mma, I would like to see it extended to C class fairly quickly and I`m sure most guys would be willing to pay for the peace of mind.

John Ferguson

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Either way as long as the promoters agree to add a €20 fee to your purse you'll recover it.

Cage Contender will be giving €20 for events in the Rep of Ireland and £20 on Northern events.

I am guessing when Dave and Peter said they would back the system they mean the system as a whole including every promoter paying the bloods fee.

weemate

John Ferguson wrote: »

Cage Contender will be giving €20 for events in the Rep of Ireland and £20 on Northern events.

I am guessing when Dave and Peter said they would back the system they mean the system as a whole including every promoter paying the bloods fee.

We can only back the use of blood tests...we cannot make a promoter pay any money toward it.I would imagine however, that your idea to contribute to the test will probably make fighting on cage contender a more attractive deal for fighters...that should nudge all the other promoters in the direction of a 'blood fee' as well.

John Ferguson

weemate wrote: »

We can only back the use of blood tests...we cannot make a promoter pay any money toward it.I would imagine however, that your idea to contribute to the test will probably make fighting on cage contender a more attractive deal for fighters...that should nudge all the other promoters in the direction of a 'blood fee' as well.

Thats cool, but to be clear Cage Contender will only pay a blood fee if it is agreed and implemented by all promoters.

Niall0

John Ferguson wrote: »

Thats cool, but to be clear Cage Contender will only pay a blood fee if it is agreed and implemented by all promoters.

Wont that be kind of difficult considering there is so many promotions? Actually, how many promotions is there? does anyone have a list?

John Ferguson

Niall0 wrote: »

Wont that be kind of difficult considering there is so many promotions? Actually, how many promotions is there? does anyone have a list?

The only way we will pay is if it's a level playing field for all, there is no reason why one promoter should pay and another not pay, that's why it was included in the initial message to all. Sure we can all just implement the blood tests for fighter safety (which is the main reason that we are doing so) but I think the promoter should help the fighter out with the cost.

When i sent the original text yesterday it went to 17 promoters in Ireland.

Sid_Justice

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

My shows will also have this policy from 2012. I recommend using a simple google database to record times and dates of blood tests which the refs can witness and monitor.

What do you mean by this? a database where a ref watches the blood sample been taken? where he observes the result letter? are you going to record confidential, private, medical data on people in a google database? What if someone tests positive for a disease, will they be uploaded into this database and blacklisted.

weemate

Sid_Justice wrote: »

What do you mean by this? a database where a ref watches the blood sample been taken? where he observes the result letter? are you going to record confidential, private, medical data on people in a google database? What if someone tests positive for a disease, will they be uploaded into this database and blacklisted.

I would doubt that myself or Dave will be able to be present at every single blood test taken in the country or further afield if foreign fighters are appearing on an Irish event.......although if travel expenses are covered I might be tempted!!
What may happen is that we will register that the fighter has been tested and that his test is recent.I would imagine that if a fighter has tested positive for a blood bourne illness or disease he would be more interested in seeking medical help rather than fighting anyway,in which case he would pull from the event.If a foreign substance appears on the test...or an abnormality of any description...it is not for me or Dave to discuss this with the public or promoter for that matter,what we could do is advise the promoter that something has appeared on the test and it would be best ,in our opinion,that the fighter in question did not take part.We cannot or will not offer any further details on the matter and it would then be up to the fighter to seek medical help.

Sid_Justice

I would presume if you tested positive for a fight, and didn't want it to be known you'd just withdraw from the fight giving injury as a reason.

Have Cage contenders and cage warriors given a list of BBD that you can't fight with?

John Ferguson

This is in danger of becoming over complicated for no reason guys.

The fighter needs to provide the promoter with a clear bloods cert from a doctor dated within 12 months of the fight. No need for anything else!

Anakin.S

The blood test are a great idea and I'm pleased that Cage Contender is following the bigger promotions lead, seriously though fighter safety is the most important thing and this is a big step and will take one more argument against MMA off the table.

I don't think a database is needed all the promotion would have to say is the fight is cancelled due to an issue with a blood cert.

Barry.Oglesby

Sid_Justice wrote: »

What do you mean by this? a database where a ref watches the blood sample been taken? where he observes the result letter? are you going to record confidential, private, medical data on people in a google database? What if someone tests positive for a disease, will they be uploaded into this database and blacklisted.

No, just that they present their blood test results to the referee and they can click "okay" on a box on a database shared only by promoters and referees.

Log books can get lost and would have to be printed up, agreed on etc. etc.

Killme00

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Have Cage contenders and cage warriors given a list of BBD that you can't fight with?

This. HIV and Hepatitis obviously, but what else?

bjj-fighter

What about Haemophilia? Could you fight with it with the tests?

Sid_Justice

In this a personal question?

With haemophilia being a non-contagious non-infective blood coagulation disorder, the only individual at risk is the actual fighter himself. It would be, in my opinion, very reckless of an individual with haemophilia to participate in MMA above the D class level as cuts are not uncommon in this sport. It would depend a degree on the severity of their disorder but in general, I don't think it makes sense.

Off the top of my head, it's not on the list of illnesses they won't licence you with in Irish Amateur boxing association but I'd have to check.

Bizarrely they only list it (if you consider it a haemorrhagic disease) as a reason rendering a woman (typo saying women)unfit to box (I can't find it for men)

PICTURE FROM IRISH AMATEUR BOXING ASSOCIATION, NOTHING TO DO WITH MMA

LeeCor88

Sid_Justice wrote: »

In this a personal question?

With haemophilia being a non-contagious non-infective blood coagulation disorder, the only individual at risk is the actual fighter himself. It would be, in my opinion, very reckless of an individual with haemophilia to participate in MMA above the D class level as cuts are not uncommon in this sport. It would depend a degree on the severity of their disorder but in general, I don't think it makes sense.

Off the top of my head, it's not on the list of illnesses they won't licence you with in Irish Amateur boxing association but I'd have to check.

Bizarrely they only list it (if you consider it a haemorrhagic disease) as a reason rendering a woman (typo saying women)unfit to box (I can't find it for men)

I have diabetes and train in mma. I understand that I am not allowed to box under the iaba but is this something that could prevent me from competing in mma in the future??

Sid_Justice

No not at all, that was just from the IABA list, nothing to do with MMA.

Well in the future, perhaps a few years, Irish MMA might adopt IABA rules as a guideline, but right now, no, nothing stopping you.

bjj-fighter

Yeah Sid it was a personal question, have mild Factor IX deficiency (Haemophilia . It's quite mild according to doctors and shouldn't really deter me from competing (I just have to go to the Blood disorders unit of James' if any injury happens or if I get KO'd as a precaution).

The reason I asked was because I plan on fighting next year, so I was just hoping that the blood tests wouldn't stop me. Looks promising for me anyway! I'd be crushed if I couldn't fight because of it.

Cheers Sid!

cowzerp

Reason been they don't test blood in amateur boxing, only pro boxing does that.

Clive

Killme00 wrote: »

This. HIV and Hepatitis obviously, but what else?

HIV, Hep B and Hep C.

dreadskin

i dont think its necessary (the debilitating nature of the aforementioned diseases would make it near on impossible to train never mind fight, tho i understand they can be transmitted in the early stages). However if the promoters want it they should pay for it. the fighters have to pay for training etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc...


on another note why was testing for PEDs, which basically means steroids, dropped so quickly from the debate?

if we are going to go to the effort of testing for HIV etc why not test for the old PEDs too?

if you want to be seen to make MMA legit , as someone mentioned earlier, then test for the 'roids as well as some off chance that someone bucked the wrong thai hooker and got the aids...

mikey1

John Ferguson wrote: »

The fighter needs to provide the promoter with a clear bloods cert from a doctor dated within 12 months of the fight. No need for anything else!

Well john from what Im reading here HIV antibodies take 6 weeks to 3 months to develop so if your really going to implement a correct procedure within the market, it will need standard checks every 3 months minimum.

http://www.avert.org/hivtesting.htm

Sid_Justice

Because there is a completely different rationales behind each type of test.

1. testing for Blood borne diseases (e.g. Hepatitis
Rationale: Fighter safety
fighters will generally test clean
once or twice a year should be sufficient
aim is to prevent risk of infection
Likelihoods of a fighter concealing results - low
Requirement to supervise blood / urine sampling - no

2. testing for performance enhancing drugs
Rationale: Stop cheating
who knows who will test clean
testing has to be regular but unpredictable to catch fighters
once or twice a year is insufficient
aim is to remove cheating
Likelihood of a fighter concealing results - high
requirement to supervise blood / urine sample - yes

Completely different tests aiming to catch completely different things which require completely different strategies.

Mellor

bjj-fighter wrote: »

Yeah Sid it was a personal question, have mild Factor IX deficiency (Haemophilia . It's quite mild according to doctors and shouldn't really deter me from competing (I just have to go to the Blood disorders unit of James' if any injury happens or if I get KO'd as a precaution).

The reason I asked was because I plan on fighting next year, so I was just hoping that the blood tests wouldn't stop me. Looks promising for me anyway! I'd be crushed if I couldn't fight because of it.

As you know, Haemophilia is genetic, not contagious. So there is no risk to anyone else from the Haemophilia itself.
But somebody suffering from Haemophilia, is likely to produce a higher volume of blood so there is an increased risk of transmitting a blood bourne disease. Which is why it sometimes prevents people from fighting in untested fights.
With blood testing, you can prove there is no risk at all so fightign shouldn't be an issue.

Clive wrote: »

HIV, Hep B and Hep C.

Eh?
That's exactly what he said, he was looking for any tohers that are worh checking for.

dreadskin wrote: »

i dont think its necessary (the debilitating nature of the aforementioned diseases would make it near on impossible to train never mind fight, tho i understand they can be transmitted in the early stages).

They could be present long before somebody becomes debilitated

on another note why was testing for PEDs, which basically means steroids, dropped so quickly from the debate?

if we are going to go to the effort of testing for HIV etc why not test for the old PEDs too?

Well firstly, PEDs isn't basically steroids. Not even close.
It's a different test. A different series of tests and the reasoning is totally different.

Sid_Justice

mikey1 wrote: »

Well john from what Im reading here HIV antibodies take 6 weeks to 3 months to develop so if your really going to implement a correct procedure within the market, it will need standard checks every 3 months minimum.

http://www.avert.org/hivtesting.htm

If you are bitten by a person who is HIV positive, some research has estimated you have 0.004 percent chance of being infected.
If you have receptive anal intercourse with a person who is HIV positive you have 1 chance in 50 you will become infected.

Including male prostitutes and heroin addicts there are very few people in Ireland with HIV. There were 331 new cases of HIV were diagnosed in Ireland in 2010, according to the Dublin Aids Alliance website (don't know where they get their figures from).

The purpose of this post is to put into context the rather minuscule chance there is of a HIV positive MMA fighter fighting and the extremely low risk of viral transmission. Even if there is biting, they share a needle and have anal sex with each other, it's still about a 2% risk on a once off episode ("all things being equal").

By all means test for HIV if you're drawing a blood sample and testing for HEP B and C etc. but don't draw up regulations for one in a million stuff. You're more likely to get stabbed by a scumbag with a broken bottle of budweiser outside a MMA event AND crashing the ambulance on the way to hospital then get HIV from a mma fight (imo)

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