Crazy council plan for clontarf.

Dancor

John_Rambo wrote: »

Your a classical hide behind the PC warrior, spewing what you would never dare to say to someones face.

If I may comment here, a bit off topic I know, but ive met Degsy IRL at the Dublin forum beers and he is not a pc warrior. I was actually very suprised about how much he is like his on-line persona. Im not a friend defending him either, I only met him once.

John_Rambo

Dancor wrote: »

If I may comment here, a bit off topic I know, but ive met Degsy IRL at the Dublin forum beers and he is not a pc warrior. I was actually very suprised about how much he is like his on-line persona. Im not a friend defending him either, I only met him once.

Fair enough Dancor. I just dont get the whole gripe thing he has with certain individuals and areas in the city and suburbs.

gurramok

John_Rambo wrote: »

Thousands and thousands peoples opinion differs to yours.

Many hundreds of thousands more oppose squandering taxpayers money on a project so as to not upset the views of some well to do residents.

As the residents on the seafront cherish their sea views so much, will they be contributing to the cost of an engineering solution?

Perhaps, nothing should change and just wait until the sea comes into their homes:pac:

bamboozle

John_Rambo wrote: »

Fair enough Dancor. I just dont get the whole gripe thing he has with certain individuals and areas in the city and suburbs.

+1 to that, i've never come across such a comical negative attitude against an area.

John_Rambo

gurramok wrote: »

As the residents on the seafront cherish their sea views so much, will they be contributing to the cost of an engineering solution?

Of course. All tax payers will, as they do for any engineering project on the country.

bamboozle

gurramok wrote: »

Many hundreds of thousands more oppose squandering taxpayers money on a project so as to not upset the views of some well to do residents.

As the residents on the seafront cherish their sea views so much, will they be contributing to the cost of an engineering solution?

Perhaps, nothing should change and just wait until the sea comes into their homes:pac:

yawn, who is talking about squandering taxpayers money? do the tax payers in the area not have a right for a portion of the taxes they pay to be channelled towards sensibily resolving issues affecting them? All the businesses in the clontarf business association pay hefty rates to DCC.

a garda was attacked some months ago in St. Annes Park, should the DCC lock up the park, build a wall around it, stop people going in? this would stop further attacks, many kite surfers on dollymount strand have had their cars broken into, perhaps we should have DCC ban kite surfing & cars near the beach to prevent the issue arising again?

All the residents of the area are seeking is a sensible solution to the issue at hand, is that too much to ask for rather than DCC's sledgehammer to a nut solution they tried to sneak by us?

gurramok

John_Rambo wrote: »

Of course. All tax payers will, as they do for any engineering project on the country.

So we all should contribute to the upkeep of an engineering project that will retain the sea views for an exclusive minority, nice one. Has anyone informed the IMF? DCC are broke by the way.

bamboozle wrote: »

yawn, who is talking about squandering taxpayers money? do the tax payers in the area not have a right for a portion of the taxes they pay to be channelled towards sensibily resolving issues affecting them? All the businesses in the clontarf business association pay hefty rates to DCC.

So do thousands of other businesses in other districts. Its not right that an exclusive minority get preferred treatment just because the sea view from their sofas will be obstructed.

There are many other projects that are more deserving of the money, DCC should proceed with the most cost effective solution unless the residents are willing to contribute to a pricier solution.

bamboozle

gurramok wrote: »

So we all should contribute to the upkeep of an engineering project that will retain the sea views for an exclusive minority, nice one. Has anyone informed the IMF? DCC are broke by the way.



So do thousands of other businesses in other districts. Its not right that an exclusive minority get preferred treatment just because the sea view from their sofas will be obstructed.

There are many other projects that are more deserving of the money, DCC should proceed with the most cost effective solution unless the residents are willing to contribute to a pricier solution.

final comment i'm making on this, the project in discussion is not 'an engineering project that will retain sea views for an exculsive minority' as you myopically put it, it is a project to prevent the seafront from flooding.

perhaps you should take a deep breath, read through the thread, appreciate that its not 300 residents of the seafront that have issue with this, it is the thousands of people from the area and afar who use the seafront as an amenity and dont wish to see it destroyed in this reckless & short sighted manner.

its quiet comical how petty some folk are.

RMD

gurramok wrote: »

It doesn't say in the report how high a dyke would be. The dykes in Holland are pretty high, you sure that is ok yet a wall is not?

Comparing Holland to Clontarf is idiotic, the area where these Dykes are in place in Holland is to reclaim land from the sea which lies below sea level, of course they're going to be "pretty high" otherwise large areas of land would disappear under the sea. Clontarf isn't under this threat, as I've said 3 times now in the 10+ years I've been living here only once has the seafront been close due to flooding and that cause little damage, it was held off property by sandbags.

gurramok wrote: »

Many hundreds of thousands more oppose squandering taxpayers money on a project so as to not upset the views of some well to do residents.

Go down to the promenade next weekend, take a stop at the various cafes / restaurants along the way. The promenade isn't just some nice "view" for the local residents, it also creates business for the local area. It draws thousands of people each weekend who'll walk up and down it, go for food, play with their kids, meet up with friends etc. Guess why it's not just the Residents association involved? The Clontarf Business Association is also involved.

This is a lazy attempt of building a water mains and a flood defense. The main motive behind this is the water mains, there was little to no fuss raised when people were told the wall would be no higher than 5ft, that was accepted. But now they've raised it to 9ft so they slide a water pipe in beneath and still call it a flood defense project.

There is 300 houses along the seafront which will be effected by this in a "view" sense, yet an estimated 5000 people showed up at the protest. Do the math, I doubt there's 16-17 people in each house, this isn't just a bit of noise being created by those who live along the seafront.

Conor1982

I'm not from Clontarf and yet whenever I go cycling I am drawn out to the fantastic cycle path (and views) all the way along the coast to Howth (except that stupid bit along St Anne Park that quadruples your chances of being killed on the bike!). The sea front is one of the unspoken great amenities of Dublin. Its also free and wonderful to see so many people getting enjoyment out of it whether its walking, running, cycling or just taking in the views. To think we pay for so-called professionals in the Corpo to plan and develop our city and this mound is the best they can come up with. These are the people who accepted all the new development money and subsequent flooding of the Tolka and Liffey basins without planning for the inevitable outcome. Of course there's a better way. Please don't get into 'us and them' slagging matches - this is our kids city and its up to us to defend it for them so they'll want to live here.

gurramok

RMD wrote: »

Comparing Holland to Clontarf is idiotic, the area where these Dykes are in place in Holland is to reclaim land from the sea which lies below sea level, of course they're going to be "pretty high" otherwise large areas of land would disappear under the sea. Clontarf isn't under this threat, as I've said 3 times now in the 10+ years I've been living here only once has the seafront been close due to flooding and that cause little damage, it was held off property by sandbags.

The seas are rising every year, its only a matter of time.

RMD wrote: »

This is a lazy attempt of building a water mains and a flood defense. The main motive behind this is the water mains, there was little to no fuss raised when people were told the wall would be no higher than 5ft, that was accepted. But now they've raised it to 9ft so they slide a water pipe in beneath and still call it a flood defense project.

There is 300 houses along the seafront which will be effected by this in a "view" sense, yet an estimated 5000 people showed up at the protest. Do the math, I doubt there's 16-17 people in each house, this isn't just a bit of noise being created by those who live along the seafront.

So 5ft is acceptable but not 9ft. A wall is a wall, let the experts decide what height it should be rather than having emotional responses about the lack of a view. There is plenty of coastline around the city to go to have a view, after all the city has a long coastline!

Ain't the watermains project an essential part of national infrastructure for the capital city to function?

Degsy

RMD wrote: »

Go down to the promenade next weekend, take a stop at the various cafes / restaurants along the way. The promenade isn't just some nice "view" for the local residents, it also creates business for the local area. It draws thousands of people each weekend who'll walk up and down it, go for food, play with their kids, meet up with friends etc. Guess why it's not just the Residents association involved? The Clontarf Business Association is also involved.

.

Well with all due respect maybe the Clontarf Business Association can pool together and pay for more astheticaly-pleasing flood relief solutions than those proposed by the Council.

Clontarf is overpriced for Housing and to "go for food"(those appalling little Celtic Tiger Bistros spring to mind) whereas DCC has no money at all..if they want special treatment then the residents and other vested interests should pay for it.

al28283

It would be a shame to lose one of the nicer parts of North Dublin when alternatives haven't been properly considered by DCC

expectationlost

John_Rambo wrote: »

Degsy, the city council are laying a water pipe and mounding muck over it and calling it a flood defense.

It's lazy, it's stupid, they went about it in a sly way.

The promenade is an integral part of the coast line, dog walkers, cyclists, walkers, runners, footballers, weight lifters, families, the elderly, locals, non-locals (me) and foreigners use it every day, it's also vital to winter graising for Brent geese.

I'm not from Clontarf, but I'd hate to loose the view on the coast road, I like cycling or walking along, seeing the egrets, curlews and the other birds in and over the water. No money can buy this, it evolves over time.

I don't know what your problem is with Clontarf and people who live on the coast road, obviously something is up there. But this working class teenage hero thing is getting tiring. People have the right to protest and DCC are acting like lazy fools in this case.

the size of the pipe and depth it needs to be under earth don't explain the height proposed afaik and has been part of the project for years not all of a sudden.

here something written shown in 2006 saying the pipe defense project have been merged http://www.engineersireland.ie/media/engineersireland/community/whitepapers/The%20North%20Fringe%20Project%20Delivery%20of%20Sewer%20and%20Water%20Infrastructure%20to%20North%20Dublin.pdf


its being built based on the 200 year event not the pipe.

i think you need to have a more solid argument yourself

expectationlost

RMD wrote: »

Comparing Holland to Clontarf is idiotic, the area where these Dykes are in place in Holland is to reclaim land from the sea which lies below sea level, of course they're going to be "pretty high" otherwise large areas of land would disappear under the sea. Clontarf isn't under this threat, as I've said 3 times now in the 10+ years I've been living here only once has the seafront been close due to flooding and that cause little damage, it was held off property by sandbags.

you missed 2002 and 2004 at the very least

John_Rambo

expectationlost wrote: »

the size of the pipe and depth it needs to be under ground don't explain the height proposed afaik

I know. Ridiculous. I'd say they plan to plonk the pipe down without digging and pile the muck on top, there's probably some regulation about how much they have to put on top of the pipe, I'm guessing at this stage though, I'm not an engineer.

expectationlost

says min cover for pipe need to be 900mm or 2.95275591 feet



does that account for height of 9ft, don't think so, presumably putting the waterpipe is too avoid building on a road not to avoid putting it deeper.

TheRealPONeil

RMD wrote: »

...
This is a lazy attempt of building a water mains and a flood defense. The main motive behind this is the water mains, there was little to no fuss raised when people were told the wall would be no higher than 5ft, that was accepted. But now they've raised it to 9ft so they slide a water pipe in beneath and still call it a flood defense project......

The red line on the graph below probably explains why the defense will be at 10ft (~3m) ...
(Dublin bay by the way)
(from http://www.floodresiliencity.eu/files/file/FRC_in_den_Medien/IBM%20FRM%20Summit%20Tony%20Maguire.pdf )

expectationlost

here are som viz done by a local architect, i'd prefer to see an engineer do them http://www.wix.com/gre978/clontarf-flood-defence#!view-2

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1020/1224306124348.html

even naoise the councillors dismissed the glass wall suggestion

mikemac

That architect firm are clever. :cool:
From spending a little time mocking up some photos they are getting their name in the Irish Times, the residents website, here and other places too, smart and free advertising

Back on topic, Clontarf is hardly Clonmel, it's not like it threatened by floods every year and the diagram shows the worst case was nine years ago

bamboozle wrote: »

a dyke from sutton to sandycove across dublin bay to prevent storm water surges

So this sounds like complete overkill, far too expensive




But before this thread I didn't know about the water main and it's seems this is more about the water main then the flood defense

It does make sense to put the water main along the promenade, why rip up road when you have kilometers of grass and space to work in.
But are DCC planning to lay the pipe, put a ditch over it and call it flood defense? So much miscommunication all over the place here

_blank_

Degsy, stop posting in such a confrontational manner please.

Stop using terms like "pannini set", it's annoying a lot of people.

Everyone else, if you suspect anyone of Trolling, report the posts.

I've only had one reported post from this thread, and a lot of bitching and sniping on the thread.

That stops now, or I'll close the thread.

bamboozle

mikemac wrote: »

That architect firm are clever. :cool:
From spending a little time mocking up some photos they are getting their name in the Irish Times, the residents website, here and other places too, smart and free advertising

Back on topic, Clontarf is hardly Clonmel, it's not like it threatened by floods every year and the diagram shows the worst case was nine years ago

So this sounds like complete overkill, far too expensive




But before this thread I didn't know about the water main and it's seems this is more about the water main then the flood defense

It does make sense to put the water main along the promenade, why rip up road when you have kilometers of grass and space to work in.
But are DCC planning to lay the pipe, put a ditch over it and call it flood defense? So much miscommunication all over the place here

Hi, i only mentioned the dyke from sutton to sandycove in response to one of the many posts from a certain poster on here who was using a number of petty arguments against the area & the amenity, one of which being he asked if there were any other suggestions. I mentioned the dyke as it was previously proposed, i certainly wasnt bigging it up and it certainly would be overkill and far too expensive to implement. Given the threat of flooding the dyke & a 9 foot mound would both be OTT.

All the residents want is a suitable defence system while protecting the seafront as an amenity, that is hardly too much too ask, nor is it too much to ask to be included in the consultation process.

mikemac

Ah yes, I know you were just listing options
It does look like I quoted you and you were pushing for that dyke

Sure anyone who reads all the thread will figure that out anyway

snickerpuss

The seafront in Clontarf isn't just for those who live on the seafront. The whole of North Dublin use it. At the weekends it's jammed with people, walkers, families, kitesurfers, people doing boot camps, kids on bikes, etc etc etc. It's a wonderful resource for all of Dublin. It would be an awful shame to build a big wall blocking the view, I refuse to believe it's the only option.

I'm from Coolock and I spent my teenage years cycling up and down the seafront, swimming on Dollymount, bunking off school in St Annes, eating chips on the sea wall. I still go there on a sunny day. It's something that effects thousands of people not just a few rich people in Clontarf.

HivemindXX

Surely that will all still be possible. The diagram included above indicates there would be plenty of space for leisure activities between the flood defence and the sea.

The report linked above about the 2002 flooding does seem to show Clontarf being basically underwater, I don't see how sandbags deal with that.

J K

Costs of flood defenses ? - I'd say the once off price tag on a properly done job would be cheaper than the bill for one weeks exchequer cash flow to the Dole Monkeys in Finglas.

_blank_

J K wrote: »

Costs of flood defenses ? - I'd say the once off price tag on a properly done job would be cheaper than the bill for one weeks exchequer cash flow to the Dole Monkeys in Finglas.

1 Week ban for trolling

great wall of china

the clontarf road stretching down to the bull wall is breathtaking what idiot would want to spoil this beautiful view i know the great wall of china is one of the wonders of the world but im sure the great wall of dublin wont be more like a fortress dont let this happen keep clontarf the way it is scenic and beautiful

expectationlost

so a meeting was had

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1021/clontarf.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter some visuals here via

http://gerrybreen.ie/gerrybreen/Main/Home.htm

who has a presentation from the council about the flooding
http://gerrybreen.ie/gerrybreen/Files/111021%20CFDV0%20FINAL.pdf

they've come out fighting

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Clontarf-Residents-Association/129977137033719?sk=wall

We met with Dublin City Council earlier today for what we would describe as an information meeting.

We will provide a more detailed statement on this meeting later tonight or tomorrow morning. In the meantime, where we have left it is that DCC have undertaken to revert within 2-3 weeks with a revised flood defence plan.

Contrary to what has been suggested in some quarters, this DOES NOT form the basis for an agreement going forward.

Our view remains that the current plan does not in any way take into account the inherent amenity value of Clontarf promenade and ignores significant personal safety concerns put forward by residents

i'd have to describe this seriously woolly thinking the residents (cra) just don't recognise the seriousness of this at all.

John_Rambo

expectationlost wrote: »

don't recognise the seriousness of this at all.

I think the fact that they have mobilised, protested and had a meeting, there is talk of a revised flood defense proves that they do recognise the seriousness of the situation! Power to the people and all that!