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What Has Martin McGuinness Ever Done For The Republic of Ireland?

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    #602
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,665 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    LordSutch wrote: »
    The people of the North did no such thing^ that is a blatant lie. I am old enough to remember the troubles, and I can assure you that the PIRA only had minority support, within a minority community. The phrase Ballot box in one hand, and armalite in the other was a phrase aimed at the then fledgling Sinn Fein, who strove to gain power by political & armed means at the same time, and it was only after the PIRA began to end its hostilities that the Political wing (Sinn Fein) became more popular among the Nationalist population of Northern Ireland.

    you didnt live in the middle of tyrone obviously. they had plenty of support, and they wouldnt have survived if they hadnt. If you cant see that then I'll just have to add you to my bulging ignore list as there'd be no point in talking to you.


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    #603
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,665 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    old hippy wrote: »
    Well, as long as you play by the rules, then ;)

    This is the Republic, not the UK - let's get that straight, first of all.

    aye - its all ireland either way.


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    #604
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    LordSutch wrote: »
    The people of the North did no such thing^ that is a blatant lie. I am old enough to remember the troubles, and I can assure you that the PIRA only had minority support, within a minority community. The phrase Ballot box in one hand, and armalite in the other was a phrase aimed at the then fledgling Sinn Fein, who strove to gain power by political & armed means at the same time, and it was only after the PIRA began to end its hostilities that the Political wing (Sinn Fein) became more popular among the Nationalist population of Northern Ireland.

    1997 general election SF won 2 seats, they had NONE going into the election.
    SDLP lost 1 seat. The IRA had just bombed Canary Wharf, Manchester and London and NI had seen the worst civil unrest in many years.


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    #605
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    maccored wrote: »
    you didnt live in the middle of tyrone obviously. they had plenty of support, and they wouldnt have survived if they hadnt. If you cant see that then I'll just have to add you to my bulging ignore list as there'd be no point in talking to you.

    What are you rattling on about :confused:

    I never mentioned Tyrone.


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    #606
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,665 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    McGuinness certainly gives off that vibe, with his "West Brit", "down here", "26 counties" language.

    I was talking 30 odd years ago. things - believe it or not - have actually changed since then, as have attitudes. His west brit outburst was generally aimed at those who still think the ira exist and that its some time in the 1980s.


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    #607
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,665 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    LordSutch wrote: »
    What are you rattling on about :confused:

    I never mentioned Tyrone.

    Im denying your statement that I was lying and your claim the IRA had no support. They certainly did when I was growing up and in the area I was growing up in. Plus they seemed to have decent enough support everywhere but the far eastern parts of the north.


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    #608
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    maccored wrote: »
    aye - its all ireland either way.

    Well, it's not, really but you've upped sticks and moved so I can understand some level of disorientation.


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    #609
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    In post#607 you said this;
    maccored wrote: »
    Im denying your statement that I was lying and your claim the IRA had no support. They certainly did when I was growing up and in the area I was growing up in. Plus they seemed to have decent enough support everywhere but the far eastern parts of the north.

    In post#576 you said this;
    maccored wrote: »
    in a nutshell, yes. the people of the north overall did give them permission to do so ..... dont know about the people in the south.

    To which I replied; The people of the North did no such thing^ that is a blatant lie. I am old enough to remember the troubles, and I can assure you that the PIRA only had minority support, within a minority community. The phrase Ballot box in one hand, and armalite in the other was a phrase aimed at the then fledgling Sinn Fein, who strove to gain power by political & armed means at the same time, and it was only after the PIRA began to end its hostilities that the Political wing (Sinn Fein) became more popular among the Nationalist population of Northern Ireland.


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    #610
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    luckyfrank wrote: »
    I'll be voting fo McGuinness whatever he done is in the past at the end of the day he was only defending his own people

    How do you "defend" someone by blowing them up ?
    luckyfrank wrote: »
    how would a man from waterford or cork feel if he saw his neighbours and family being brutally discriminated against on a daily basis by the state and army of a country that is not yours

    How would he feel if he saw neighbours and family blown to bits by someone supposedly "defending" them ?
    luckyfrank wrote: »
    Martin McGuinness may have done deeds that were terrible but you have to put it into to context

    We don't "have to" do anything.
    luckyfrank wrote: »
    Ask yourself this question : If it were east or southwest ireland that were under british rule instead of the north and what went on up north happend in your part of ireland how would you react ?

    Ask yourself this question : if it weren't McG and someone else were going around blowing up Irish men & women, how would you react ? If it were - say - the Brits that placed bombs in shopping centres, hotels and pubs, would you excuse it as easily ?
    luckyfrank wrote: »
    Ive no doubt many would have chosen the hume way but many more would have choosing another route

    Count me as one of the "Hume way" advocates.
    luckyfrank wrote: »
    I'll be voting for Mcguinness on election day on his record on the peace process and the fact i believe he loves his country more than any of the other chancers of candidates

    Loves it so much that he blew part of it - and some of its people - to bits (assuming that you're referring to the island, that is, and not his country).


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    #611
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    LordSutch wrote: »
    In post#607 you said this;


    In post#576 you said this;

    To which I replied; The people of the North did no such thing^ that is a blatant lie. I am old enough to remember the troubles, and I can assure you that the PIRA only had minority support, within a minority community. The phrase Ballot box in one hand, and armalite in the other was a phrase aimed at the then fledgling Sinn Fein, who strove to gain power by political & armed means at the same time, and it was only after the PIRA began to end its hostilities that the Political wing (Sinn Fein) became more popular among the Nationalist population of Northern Ireland.


    1997 general election SF won 2 seats, they had NONE going into the election.
    SDLP lost 1 seat. The IRA had just bombed Canary Wharf, Manchester and London and NI had seen the worst civil unrest in many years. The IRA was not on ceasefire.


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    #612
    dulpit
    Registered Users Posts: 10,953 ✭✭✭✭dulpit


    I've a question, and I'm onlu thinking aloud mind..

    If the Troubles were a legitimate war, should the leaders of the IRA not be held accountable for war crimes against civilians?


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    #613
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    1997 general election SF won 2 seats, they had NONE going into the election.
    SDLP lost 1 seat. The IRA had just bombed Canary Wharf, Manchester and London and NI had seen the worst civil unrest in many years. The IRA was not on ceasefire.

    He said minority support, the SDLP was still the larger party.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #614
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,748 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    maccored wrote: »
    OK - so you say there was no war because i am 'trying to justify the actions'. sorry, but thats just rubbish. I dont believe in terrorism either. again, its a handy word to use without having to define what it actually means. if there was no cause for the problems in the north, you could call it terrorism, but unless you intend to re-write history, you're better off accepting it as a war.
    Firstly, I'm not the one who is trying to rewrite history. You seem to justify the actions of a few who wanted to achieve independence from the UK. Those who you are defending maimed, murdered and secretly buried people quite often civilian and I still can't see a reason that justifies it.

    Secondly, I don't have to accept it for anything that I don't believe in (no more than you do). However, I am aware of what NI was like during the 70s and 80s. It still does not justify an armed campaign of terror.

    Lastly, if you don't believe in the idea of terrorism (which exists despite your limited opinion), then there really isn't any point in trying to debate with you! However, given that the word exists in Irish also (sceimhlitheoir), maybe it is actually you that is wrong!


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    #615
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,748 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    luckyfrank wrote: »
    Martin McGuinness may have done deeds that were terrible but you have to put it into to context
    So John Hume was wrong for not going down the terrorist route?
    I hope he gives back the Nobel prize, the louser!

    (oops I guess that i may actually need to use the sarcasm smiley just in case you think I actually believe you! :rolleyes:)
    luckyfrank wrote: »
    Ask yourself this question : If it were east or southwest ireland that were under british rule instead of the north and what went on up north happend in your part of ireland how would you react ? Ive no doubt many would have chosen the hume way but many more would have choosing another route
    Which way is the right way though or are they both the same? Which way found the peace that now exists; was it achieved by murdering people and buying them under a beach somewhere?


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    #616
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    K-9 wrote: »
    He said minority support, the SDLP was still the larger party.

    16% of the poll was a significant and GROWING minority in 1994. The voter had no problem that the IRA was not on ceasefire.


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    #617
    OMD
    Registered Users Posts: 2,458 ✭✭✭OMD


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    16% of the poll was a significant and GROWING minority in 1994. The voter had no problem that the IRA was not on ceasefire.

    Well 84% of the voters obviously had a problem with the IRA or do massive majorities no longer count


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    #618
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,665 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    LordSutch wrote: »
    In post#607 you said this;


    In post#576 you said this;

    To which I replied; The people of the North did no such thing^ that is a blatant lie. I am old enough to remember the troubles, and I can assure you that the PIRA only had minority support, within a minority community. The phrase Ballot box in one hand, and armalite in the other was a phrase aimed at the then fledgling Sinn Fein, who strove to gain power by political & armed means at the same time, and it was only after the PIRA began to end its hostilities that the Political wing (Sinn Fein) became more popular among the Nationalist population of Northern Ireland.

    i must have blinked as I missed your point again. I say the ira had support, you say they didnt, and I totally disagree with you ..... was that what you were pointing out?


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    #619
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,665 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    dulpit wrote: »
    I've a question, and I'm onlu thinking aloud mind..

    If the Troubles were a legitimate war, should the leaders of the IRA not be held accountable for war crimes against civilians?

    as long as that works both ways and the leaders of the british army are held for same.


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    #620
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    maccored wrote: »
    as long as that works both ways and the leaders of the british army are held for same.

    There's a lot of people who need to be held accountable, I'll agree with that


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    #621
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    maccored wrote: »
    i must have blinked as I missed your point again. I say the ira had support, you say they didnt, and I totally disagree with you ..... was that what you were pointing out?

    You said
    maccored wrote: »
    the people of the north overall did give them permission to do so

    That word "overall" does not belong anywhere in a factual sentence.

    A minority supported them.


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    #622
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,665 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    kbannon wrote: »
    Firstly, I'm not the one who is trying to rewrite history. You seem to justify the actions of a few who wanted to achieve independence from the UK. Those who you are defending maimed, murdered and secretly buried people quite often civilian and I still can't see a reason that justifies it.

    their actions, and the resulting support, had more to do with daily life that just solely achieving independence. You seem to have sidestepped WHY they wanted independence - but thats another thread

    Secondly, I don't have to accept it for anything that I don't believe in (no more than you do). However, I am aware of what NI was like during the 70s and 80s. It still does not justify an armed campaign of terror.

    You obviously arent very aware or indeed didnt get the same treatment as many people like myself did. If you had then you'd have no problem understanding why it wasnt terrorism.
    Lastly, if you don't believe in the idea of terrorism (which exists despite your limited opinion), then there really isn't any point in trying to debate with you! However, given that the word exists in Irish also (sceimhlitheoir), maybe it is actually you that is wrong!

    Its not a matter of right or wrong, its a matter of opinion. and like arseholes, we all have one of those.

    Now thats in my 'limited' opinion - if it suits you sir (bows and curtsies to an obviously much more intellectual person). edit - I have to point out to m'lord that I wasnt saying the word terrorism didnt exist.


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    #623
    dulpit
    Registered Users Posts: 10,953 ✭✭✭✭dulpit


    maccored wrote: »
    as long as that works both ways and the leaders of the british army are held for same.

    I don't think a defence can be "Well they didn't get in trouble, so why should I?"


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    #624
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    OMD wrote: »
    Well 84% of the voters obviously had a problem with the IRA or do massive majorities no longer count

    SF where beginning to win the argument as to who was to represent the nationalist electorate.
    The SF voter in the North did not and still does not have a problem with their past associations.
    Except down here, but a rise from 4 to 14 seats at the last election would tend to point to that problem diminishing for them, all they want to achieve in this election is to get another significant tranche of voters to vote for them for the first time because once they are convinced once it will be easier the next time.
    No Aras for them but major winners all the same and the partitionists with no war to point to, get further marginalised.


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    #625
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,665 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    dulpit wrote: »
    I don't think a defence can be "Well they didn't get in trouble, so why should I?"

    what? If you are going to accuse the IRA of war crimes then the british are also respsonbile for war crimes. Do you disagree with that?


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    #626
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    maccored wrote: »
    their actions, and the resulting support, had more to do with daily life that just solely achieving independence. You seem to have sidestepped WHY they wanted independence - but thats another thread

    And you have repeatedly sidestepped the fact that they went WAY BEYOND defending anyone or "fighting back".
    maccored wrote: »
    You obviously arent very aware or indeed didnt get the same treatment as many people like myself did. If you had then you'd have no problem understanding why it wasnt terrorism.

    Again, ignoring the facts. What treatment anyone receives and how they react are separated by a choice, and the IRA chose terrorism and intimidation.
    maccored wrote: »
    Its not a matter of right or wrong, its a matter of opinion.

    So deciding whether or not to murder innocent civilians isn't a "matter of right and wrong" ? It's a "matter of opinion" ?

    Horrendous (lack of) morals right there.


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    #627
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    maccored wrote: »
    what? If you are going to accuse the IRA of war crimes then the british are also respsonbile for war crimes. Do you disagree with that?

    Presumably you mean the British establishment, as opposed to the people?


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    #628
    OMD
    Registered Users Posts: 2,458 ✭✭✭OMD


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    SF where beginning to win the argument as to who was to represent the nationalist electorate.
    The voter in the North did not still does not have a problem with their past associations.
    Well as I said 84% did have a problem. You cannot just wish this massive majority away. SF may have increased their vote but still the massive majority of people in 1997 rejected them as today the massive majority of people north & south continue to reject them.


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    #629
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,665 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    old hippy wrote: »
    Presumably you mean the British establishment, as opposed to the people?

    Yes, you presumed correctly. Leaders actually, that was the initial mention. as lovely though as this discussion is, I'm letting it lie as its way way way off topic.


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    #630
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    maccored wrote: »
    Yes, you presumed correctly. Leaders actually, that was the initial mention. as lovely though as this discussion is, I'm letting it lie as its way way way off topic.

    As you wish but I don't think it's off topic. Martin was part of your "war", after all. I think it's important to discuss this in relation to the thread.


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    #631
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    OMD wrote: »
    Well as I said 84% did have a problem. You cannot just wish this massive majority away. SF may have increased their vote but still the massive majority of people in 1997 rejected them as today the massive majority of people north & south continue to reject them.

    You gonna call it?
    What percentage of the vote would keep a partitionist awake nights?:D


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