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What Has Martin McGuinness Ever Done For The Republic of Ireland?

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    #632
    OMD
    Registered Users Posts: 2,458 ✭✭✭OMD


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    You gonna call it?
    What percentage of the vote would keep a partitionist awake nights?:D

    You said:
    The voter in the North did not still does not have a problem with their past associations.

    I am pointing out that statement has no basis in fact.


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    #633
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    OMD wrote: »
    You said:


    I am pointing out that statement has no basis in fact.

    :rolleyes: Apologies, I was of course referring to Nationalist voters.


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    #634
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    You gonna call it?
    What percentage of the vote would keep a partitionist awake nights?:D

    why use the word ''partitionist''


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    #635
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    marienbad wrote: »
    why use the word ''partitionist''

    Mmm. Was wondering that as well.


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    #636
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    marienbad wrote: »
    why use the word ''partitionist''
    old hippy wrote: »
    Mmm. Was wondering that as well.

    Because I am specifically interested in that mindset's answer. Their war is obviously not over.


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    #637
    OMD
    Registered Users Posts: 2,458 ✭✭✭OMD


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    :rolleyes: Apologies, I was of course referring to Nationalist voters.

    No. What you mean is of voters who voted either SDLP or SF. Sounds very partitionist to simply ignore the views of the majority who voted neither party.


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    #638
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    OMD wrote: »
    No. What you mean is of voters who voted either SDLP or SF. Sounds very partitionist to simply ignore the views of the majority who voted neither party.

    You are having your cake and eating it now.
    You people say that the majority southern voters won't vote for SF because of their links with the IRA and McG's refusal to speak 'truthfully' about his past.

    But you cannot say the same of the Nationalist voter in the North, because the majority of them now vote for SF who had links with the IRA, and not the SDLP.
    Therefore it can't be said that it was their connection with the IRA that stopped SDLP voters before. It very obviously isn't the reason. More like SF's lack of electoral sophistication and interest in the ballot box. That is a relatively recent thing.
    It is a similar lack of electoral sophistication that is holding them back here. But that is changing, as evidenced at the last election.


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    #639
    hangon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 374 ✭✭hangon


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    Ah now that's totally disingenuous. I can't look now on my phone but I clearly posted what he was arrested for earlier in this thread. It wasn't for being a catholic.

    according to his Wiki(i know not my favourite source either)
    In 1973, he was convicted by the Republic of Ireland's Special Criminal Court, after being caught with a car containing 250 lb (113 kg) of explosives and nearly 5,000 rounds of ammunition. He refused to recognise the court, and was sentenced to six months imprisonment. In court, he declared his membership of the Provisional Irish Republican Army without equivocation: 'We have fought against the killing of our people... I am a member of Óglaigh na hÉireann and very, very proud of it'.[12]

    That was 1973,what age was he?
    i see you are a mod for legal chambers,do you trust a court that has no jury?
    i know i do not.
    have to say though the quality of debate on this thread is very appreciated by me, even those totally at opposite viewpoints are keeping it interesting and informative.
    when we are talking we are not fighting.

    His full wiki here(asks for no citations and is short)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_McGuinness

    Edit: actually it asks for only one citation.


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    #640
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Because I am specifically interested in that mindset's answer. Their war is obviously not over.

    who or what in your view is ''that mindset''


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    #641
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,665 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    old hippy wrote: »
    As you wish but I don't think it's off topic. Martin was part of your "war", after all. I think it's important to discuss this in relation to the thread.

    Fair enough - What has mmg ever done for the republic of ireland? he helped resolve the war in the north, which obviously has effects throughout the whole island of ireland, including the republic.


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    #642
    luckyfrank
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,054 ✭✭✭luckyfrank


    Take a read

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/1006/1224305329182.html


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    #643
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    luckyfrank wrote: »
    Take a read

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/1006/1224305329182.html

    The view of McGuinness in that has already been debunked considering the bias and agenda of the writer.


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    #644
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    The view of McGuinness in that has already been debunked considering the bias and agenda of the writer.

    Debunked? Don't you mean you just fired your usual prejudice and bias at it?


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    #645
    hangon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 374 ✭✭hangon


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    The view of McGuinness in that has already been debunked considering the bias and agenda of the writer.

    jeepers Liam we are in agreement about something, the bias of the lazy journalist that wrote that piece of crap.
    be careful or we will all be in agreement and then there would be no need for the politics forum!:eek:


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    #646
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    marienbad wrote: »
    who or what in your view is ''that mindset''

    Generally anybody who has a them and us view. Their freedoms where won in a cleaner and more morally respectable way, not like the blood thirsty murderers who where basically finishing the job their ancestors started. They can be heard patronisingly exhorting those in the North to move forward but won't do it themselves. And they are scared ****less at the minute, their hypocrisy laid bare ;)


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    #647
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Generally anybody who has a them and us view. Their freedoms where won in a cleaner and more morally respectable way, not like the blood thirsty murderers who where basically finishing the job their ancestors started. They can be heard patronisingly exhorting those in the North to move forward but won't do it themselves. And they are scared ****less at the minute, their hypocrisy laid bare ;)

    But this is all by your definition Happyman is it not ? and with a little bit of ''patronising'' from your good self thrown in. And does it not show you have a ''them and us'' view into the bargain ?

    Why use such disparaging terms at all ?


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    #648
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    marienbad wrote: »
    Why use such disparaging terms at all ?

    eh...because I wish to disparage? ;)


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    #649
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    eh...because I wish to disparage? ;)

    It's a clear sign of desperation tbh.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #650
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    eh...because I wish to disparage? ;)

    Ar'nt I the bigger fcuking ejit for taking you seriously , well we live and learn


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    #651
    brendankelly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 318 ✭✭brendankelly


    Will MMG ask the government why The Aarhus Convention was never laid before the Dail????


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    #652
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    marienbad wrote: »
    Ar'nt I the bigger fcuking ejit for taking you seriously , well we live and learn

    Well I can't see why it should offend, the term has been around for long enough.
    Take a look at some of the 'disparaging' terms used by others and you might as well write off the whole thread! :D


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    #653
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    But you cannot say the same of the Nationalist voter in the North, because the majority of them now vote for SF who had links with the IRA, and not the SDLP.
    Therefore it can't be said that it was their connection with the IRA that stopped SDLP voters before. It very obviously isn't the reason.
    Er, why not? :confused:
    Many nationalists in the North would not vote for Sinn Fein when they were linked to a group who were actively using violence to achieve a political end, and they did not approve of this.
    They now do vote for Sinn Fein because the believe them when they say they will pursue the democratic path only.

    I haven't heard anyone, critic or supporter of Sinn Fein (apart from you!) who seriously disputes that.


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    #654
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    brendankelly wrote: »
    Will MMG ask the government why The Aarhus Convention was never laid before the Dail????
    Will someone ask brendankelly why he doesn't start his own blasted thread about this Aarhus thingy, if he wants to discuss it? :mad:


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    #655
    brendankelly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 318 ✭✭brendankelly


    A good idea. Thanks


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    #656
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    lugha wrote: »
    Er, why not? :confused:
    Many nationalists in the North would not vote for Sinn Fein when they were linked to a group who were actively using violence to achieve a political end, and they did not approve of this.

    I argued before that the reasons are more complex. For instance my dads family are staunch supporters of the SDLP but they always were and still are wary of disrespecting the men and women who fought for freedom. Also, witness the reaction across the whole nationalist community when the British royally ****ed up Bloody Sunday, The Hunger Strikes, Gibraltar, Loughgall etc.
    lugha wrote: »
    They now do vote for Sinn Fein because the believe them when they say they will pursue the democratic path only.
    And we are told that it is 'morally wrong' for us to do the same.
    More of the them and us double think, hypocrisy.


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    #657
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I argued before that the reasons are more complex. For instance my dads family are staunch supporters of the SDLP but they always were and still are wary of disrespecting the men and women who fought for freedom.
    Yes, there is certainly some confusion in the thinking of nationalists. I suspect they, or many people like them, would see no contradiction in roundly condemning republican dissidents who, as they would see it, are still fighting for our freedom.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Also, witness the reaction across the whole nationalist community when the British royally ****ed up Bloody Sunday, The Hunger Strikes, Gibraltar, Loughgall etc.
    Yes and there was the polar opposite reaction after Warrington and Omagh and the like. There was considerable disdain for physical force republicanism. Would it be fair to have read as much in to those reactions, in terms of what it said about the mindset of nationalists, as you do in to the ones you cite? And BTW, well out of order to be listing Bloody Sunday with the others you mention. :mad:
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    And we are told that it is 'morally wrong' for us to do the same.
    More of the them and us double think, hypocrisy.

    No double think. I think there is something objectionable about MMG and Sinn Fein. I think that even if every man jack in NI voted for him. I similarly found Ian Paisley objectionable; that he had at times, an enormous personal mandate did not make him less objectionable in my eyes.


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    #658
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    lugha wrote: »
    Yes, there is certainly some confusion in the thinking of nationalists. I suspect they, or many people like them, would see no contradiction in roundly condemning republican dissidents who, as they would see it, are still fighting for our freedom.

    Fairly typical auld response, if you can't sledge hammer their behaviour into your particular box, imply that they are 'confused'!

    lugha wrote: »
    Yes and there was the polar opposite reaction after Warrington and Omagh and the like. There was considerable disdain for physical force republicanism. Would it be fair to have read as much in to those reactions, in terms of what it said about the mindset of nationalists, as you do in to the ones you cite?
    Has it not dawned on you yet? People are capable of being sophisticated in their views and reactions and most 'real people' do not have the luxury of being so morally righteous and can be conflicted.
    lugha wrote: »
    And BTW, well out of order to be listing Bloody Sunday with the others you mention. :mad:

    Get over yourself, I was listing events that provoked outcry across the Nationalist community, I gave no opinion on them.


    lugha wrote: »
    No double think. I think there is something objectionable about MMG and Sinn Fein. I think that even if every man jack in NI voted for him. I similarly found Ian Paisley objectionable; that he had at times, an enormous personal mandate did not make him less objectionable in my eyes.

    Don't vote for him then, but spare us the moral supremacy.


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    #659
    brendankelly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 318 ✭✭brendankelly


    I remember Gibraltar. 3 unarmed people Danny mc Cann , Maread Farrell and Sean Savage riddled with bullets by British forces in a foreign Country just because they were Irish.

    My No 1 will go to an Independent but I am now considering giving my No 2 to MMG (if he mentions Aarhus)


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    #660
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Fairly typical auld response, if you can't sledge hammer their behaviour into your particular box, imply that they are 'confused'!
    You don't see the confusion in holding MMG up as a hero (though he took up arms against the wishes of the majority of the Irish people) but criticizing the dissidents (who take up arms against the wishes of the majority of the Irish people)?
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Has it not dawned on you yet? People are capable of being sophisticated in their views and reactions and most 'real people' do not have the luxury of being so morally righteous and can be conflicted.
    You cited events by the British that provoked an adverse reaction among nationalist, with the inference being that it pointed to evidence of a core sympathy they held for physical force republicans. I exposed this silly claim by pointing out other events by republicans had a polar opposite effect. Disdain for actions of the BA (and there wasn't that much around Gibraltar or Loughgall; Sinn Fein did try to milk these for publicity, most could see their staggering hypocrisy) does not equate to support for the IRA.

    And condemning unapologetic fascists is not morally righteous.
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Don't vote for him then, but spare us the moral supremacy.
    Would you say the same about other low caliber politicians like Haughey, Flynn etc?


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    #661
    View
    Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    For instance my dads family are staunch supporters of the SDLP but they always were and still are wary of disrespecting the men and women who fought for freedom.

    That's probably because your dads family are smart enough to realise that "the men and women who fought for freedom" would, at the slightest sign of "disrespect", have murdered them as fast as they'd have said hello to them.


This discussion has been closed.
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