What Has Martin McGuinness Ever Done For The Republic of Ireland?

Mayo Exile

Liam Byrne wrote: »

That's because there is no mistake. Leaving a bomb on a street or on a hotel will kill and injure innocents.

Unless those planting it evacuate the area themselves then they are responsible for any murders.

.

Still can't/won't address the points I've put to you. Your argument has no credibility at this stage I think.

Liam Byrne

Mayo Exile wrote: »

Liam Byrne wrote: »

That's because there is no mistake. Leaving a bomb on a street or on a hotel will kill and injure innocents.

Unless those planting it evacuate the area themselves then they are responsible for any murders.

.

Still can't/won't address the points I've put to you. Your argument has no credibility at this stage I think.

Nice try. You pretended that there was an aspect of an "accident" re bombing civilians. You are wrong.

Mayo Exile

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Nice try. You pretended that there was an aspect of an "accident" re bombing civilians. You are wrong.

Sorry, but no. Unless you can solve the contradiction you created at the end of your earlier post (#559), Your subsequent argument remains invalid in my opinion.

beeno67

Mayo Exile wrote: »

Sorry, but no. Unless you can solve the contradiction you created at the end of your earlier post (#559), Your subsequent argument remains invalid in my opinion.

Surely if you plant a bomb in a bar you are targeting civilians. How can you not be. In your mind you might say you are targeting a particular person or group but a bomb left in a bar or on the street is targeting civillians. You cannot possible detonate the bomb be sure of killing your target and not kill civilians.

maccored

Surely if a country blanket bombs another country they are targetting civillians? Surely if you shoot directly into crowds of unarmed people in Derry you care targeting civillians?

The IRA campaign many times were designed to cause destruction, not civillian deaths - I would assume that anyway considering they normally gave an hour or so warning. In the case of the Omagh bomb Nuala O'Loan did hint at collusion with the RUC wherein the proper warning wasnt passed on in time, though thats neither here nor there as it wasnt the IRA and the report is easily found online. The idea of holding on the warning information and not acting on it immediately is something many have suspected that the authorities have done on more than one occasion, to make sure people think the IRA liked to kill for the sake of it.

beeno67 wrote: »

Surely if you plant a bomb in a bar you are targeting civilians. How can you not be. In your mind you might say you are targeting a particular person or group but a bomb left in a bar or on the street is targeting civillians. You cannot possible detonate the bomb be sure of killing your target and not kill civilians.

maccored

Mayo Exile wrote: »

Sorry, but no. Unless you can solve the contradiction you created at the end of your earlier post (#559), Your subsequent argument remains invalid in my opinion.

This is why Liam is on my ignore list as his debates are very circular.

Mayo Exile

beeno67 wrote: »

Surely if you plant a bomb in a bar you are targeting civilians. How can you not be. In your mind you might say you are targeting a particular person or group but a bomb left in a bar or on the street is targeting civillians. You cannot possible detonate the bomb be sure of killing your target and not kill civilians.

How so? If I wanted to attack the bar I could attack it when there's nobody in it. Thats not meant to sound like a flippant answer BTW.

beeno67

Mayo Exile wrote: »

How so? If I wanted to attack the bar I could attack it when there's nobody in it. Thats not meant to sound like a flippant answer BTW.

But then you wouldn't kill your target either as I already said.

KeithAFC

Garda McCabe's family angry at McGuinness candidacy

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-15388735
I think they make a great point on this.

We can't move on if Mr McGuinness assumes he can aspire to the symbolic status of first citizen without first discharging the most basic responsibility of any citizen”

McCabe family statement

beeno67

maccored wrote: »

Surely if a country blanket bombs another country they are targetting civillians? Surely if you shoot directly into crowds of unarmed people in Derry you care targeting civillians?

Of course it is. I doubt anyone would seriously argue that it wasn't.

Mayo Exile

beeno67 wrote: »

But then you wouldn't kill your target either as I already said.

?

Your suggesting a different plan with a different outcome here. I still only want to attack the bar itself.

beeno67

Mayo Exile wrote: »

?

Your suggesting a different plan with a different outcome here. I still only want to attack the bar itself.

In fairness here you were quoting me and I was talking about targeting a person.

Anyway to take your point. I suppose if you are sure the bar is empty and that either the street outside is empty or would be unaffected by the bomb then yes in that case you are not targeting civilians. I am not too sure there were many bombs planted in those circumstances by the IRA but those bombs would not have been targeting civilians.

Happyman42

KeithAFC wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-15388735
I think they make a great point on this.

I understand grief, but why should this death be any more important that the other 3000 plus deaths?
This family have been saying that they have evidence of this and that....give the evidence to the Gardai!.

It is actually a criticism of the Gardai in a way, why haven't they taken action?
Why didn't McDowell take action when as he claims the Garda Commissioner told him that McGuinness was a member in 2005 or whatever.
Seems to me like all these people want to have a go but won't put their money where their mouths are. It's easier to slur and not back it up.

KeithAFC

Happyman42 wrote: »

I understand grief, but why should this death be any more important that the other 3000 plus deaths?
This family have been saying that they have evidence of this and that....give the evidence to the Gardai!.

It is actually a criticism of the Gardai in a way, why haven't they taken action?
Why didn't McDowell take action when as he claims the Garda Commissioner told him that McGuinness was a member in 2005 or whatever.
Seems to me like all these people want to have a go but won't put their money where their mouths are. It's easier to slur and not back it up.

So what on earth is the Pat Finucane case all about then? SF seem to think that death is more important than any other death.

Happyman42

KeithAFC wrote: »

So what on earth is the Pat Finucane case all about then? SF seem to think that death is more important than any other death.

They have ACTUAL evidence which they have produced. And it is the Finucane family that are pushing for a public inquiry.
Collusion by government is outside the terms of the GFA for very good reason.

KeithAFC

Happyman42 wrote: »

They have ACTUAL evidence which they have produced. And it is the Finucane family that are pushing for a public inquiry.
Collusion by government is outside the terms of the GFA for very good reason.

But there is so many cases of collusion and PIRA bomb attacks and Loyalist attacks. If we go down this route, there will always be inquiries. SF should take their own advice about moving away from the past.

Happyman42

KeithAFC wrote: »

But there is so many cases of collusion and PIRA bomb attacks and Loyalist attacks. If we go down this route, there will always be inquiries. SF should take their own advice about moving away from the past.

SF aren't pursuing this...Pat Finucane's family are, as they are entitled to do.
If the McCabe's have evidence of explicit involvement by McG, produce it, or let the man rest in peace. SF have never told McCabe's family to be quiet, they have responded to every allegation. How do you prove you weren't someplace?....Think about that.....the onus is rightly on the McCabe's to PROVE it.

OMD

KeithAFC wrote: »

But there is so many cases of collusion and PIRA bomb attacks and Loyalist attacks. If we go down this route, there will always be inquiries. SF should take their own advice about moving away from the past.

I am no fan of MMG and can see a multitude of reasons not to vote for him. I will vote against him at the election by giving my vote to all 6 other candidates (even Dana) rather than him. However in this instance I agree with Happyman. The McCabe family need to provide evidence. There is evidence of collusion in the murder of Pat Finnucan
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/oct/13/pat-finucane-scary-admission-state

It's all a long time ago and the Metropolitan police commissioner, Sir John (now Lord) Stevens, investigated the crime between 1999 and 2003, took 9,256 witness statements and created an archive with 1m pages.

Stevens concluded there was collusion with "rogue elements" of the state – a handy phrase sometimes is "rogue elements" – which placed the trigger man where he was. So did Canadian judge, Peter Cory (appointed by London and Dublin) in 2004, the year Tony Blair's government promised the Finucane family a public inquiry

.

Liam Byrne

Mayo Exile wrote: »

beeno67 wrote: »

Surely if you plant a bomb in a bar you are targeting civilians. How can you not be. In your mind you might say you are targeting a particular person or group but a bomb left in a bar or on the street is targeting civillians. You cannot possible detonate the bomb be sure of killing your target and not kill civilians.

How so? If I wanted to attack the bar I could attack it when there's nobody in it. Thats not meant to sound like a flippant answer BTW.

My point EXACTLY! And if you plan and execute this then you can't be accused of murdering civilians.

However far too many civilians were murdered for this to be taken seriously. Were the IRA that incompetent ? At best, they didn't give a **** - otherwise they would have stopped after one or two "mistakes" - but no, every single time they killed someone we were told it was a "mistake" - if a taxi-driver killed someone every time he drove then - if he had any respect for human life - he would stop driving.....and that's even a view that allows an overlooking of the core despicable intent of a bomb.

K-9

Happyman42 wrote: »

Pat Finucane's family are, as they are entitled to do.

McCabe's family are also perfectly entitled to ask questions, that's the point.

Happyman42

K-9 wrote: »

McCabe's family are also perfectly entitled to ask questions, that's the point.

They are making unsubstantiated allegations, over and over again about something that is covered under the terms of the GFA.

Mayo Exile

Liam Byrne wrote: »

My point EXACTLY! And if you plan and execute this then you can't be accused of murdering civilians.

However far too many civilians were murdered for this to be taken seriously. Were the IRA that incompetent ? At best, they didn't give a **** - otherwise they would have stopped after one or two "mistakes" - but no, every single time they killed someone we were told it was a "mistake" - if a taxi-driver killed someone every time he drove then - if he had any respect for human life - he would stop driving.....and that's even a view that allows an overlooking of the core despicable intent of a bomb.

Sorry Liam thats still a no. It's still just a plan with a singular outcome that I've illustrated. You still refuse to acknowledge the concept of a mistake re civilian deaths in a war/conflict situation. As maccored suggests above its just circular debate I believe you're engaging in now.

OMD

Mayo Exile wrote: »

Sorry Liam thats still a no. It's still just a plan with a singular outcome that I've illustrated. You still refuse to acknowledge the concept of a mistake re civilian deaths in a war/conflict situation. As maccored suggests above its just circular debate I believe you're engaging in now.

In fairness Mayo Exile you gave a hypothetical situation which implies you must know the bar was empty and that either there was no people on the street or the people on the street would not be effected. I am not quite sure how you could have a civilian death in these circumstances but even if you could the circumstances are not very realistic.

Liam Byrne

Mayo Exile wrote: »

Liam Byrne wrote: »

My point EXACTLY! And if you plan and execute this then you can't be accused of murdering civilians.

However far too many civilians were murdered for this to be taken seriously. Were the IRA that incompetent ? At best, they didn't give a **** - otherwise they would have stopped after one or two "mistakes" - but no, every single time they killed someone we were told it was a "mistake" - if a taxi-driver killed someone every time he drove then - if he had any respect for human life - he would stop driving.....and that's even a view that allows an overlooking of the core despicable intent of a bomb.

Sorry Liam thats still a no. It's still just a plan with a singular outcome that I've illustrated. You still refuse to acknowledge the concept of a mistake re civilian deaths in a war/conflict situation. As maccored suggests above its just circular debate I believe you're engaging in now.

It's a circular debate because apologists refuse to face facts. If someone plants a bomb it is THEIR responsibility to ensure that no-one gets killed. And if they don't ensure that then they are guilty of at least gross negligence.

The repeated nature of the so-called "mistakes" undermines your argument completely.

barrmur

Mayo Exile wrote: »

Sorry Liam thats still a no. It's still just a plan with a singular outcome that I've illustrated. You still refuse to acknowledge the concept of a mistake re civilian deaths in a war/conflict situation. As maccored suggests above its just circular debate I believe you're engaging in now.

I can see it now. The IRA corden off a bar they want to bomb. Put up a few cones and some plastic tape and warn everyone to stand back as they are about to blow the place up. They all then stand back and watch the fireworks. I'm no history buff but cant remember this happening to often.

If you plant a bomb and it kills civillians the deaths are on the hands of those who planned, made and planted the bomb. I really cant see how anyone can see it any other way.

K-9

Happyman42 wrote: »

They are making unsubstantiated allegations, over and over again about something that is covered under the terms of the GFA.

It's debatable if they were covered, hence the long prison sentence.

KeithAFC

Liam Byrne wrote: »

It's a circular debate because apologists refuse to face facts. If someone plants a bomb it is THEIR responsibility to ensure that no-one gets killed. And if they don't ensure that then they are guilty of at least gross negligence.

The repeated nature of the so-called "mistakes" undermines your argument completely.

You know when you compare PIRA bomb attacks to recent dissident bomb attacks, it is actually rather amazing how the dissidents actually seem to not be killing civilians.

Happyman42

You people are talking about civilian deaths as if we can go back and do something about it.
Nobody has answered this yet;....how did this bunch of supposed 'physco's, thieves and criminals' switch it all off when they got to the table and negotiated a deal?
And also how did they sustain the peace, it could have been no easy task, considering the disparate egos and intellects involved in any army and the various stresses and provocations along the way.
Are any of you moral junkies prepared to give any credit for that?

old hippy

Happyman42 wrote: »

You people are talking about civilian deaths as if we can go back and do something about it.
Nobody has answered this yet;....how did this bunch of supposed 'physco's, thieves and criminals' switch it all off when they got to the table and negotiated a deal?
And also how did they sustain the peace, it could have been no easy task, considering the disparate egos and intellects involved in any army and the various stresses and provocations along the way.
Are any of you moral junkies prepared to give any credit for that?

History has shown us many of the er, great leaders were of dubious mental health but they still waged war and built empires and so on...

Psycho or otherwise, it was always the innocent civilians who suffered and continue to do so...

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

You people are talking about civilian deaths as if we can go back and do something about it.
Nobody has answered this yet;....how did this bunch of supposed 'physco's, thieves and criminals' switch it all off when they got to the table and negotiated a deal?
And also how did they sustain the peace, it could have been no easy task, considering the disparate egos and intellects involved in any army and the various stresses and provocations along the way.
Are any of you moral junkies prepared to give any credit for that?

Credit for finally copping on to the futility of their violent campaign, and coming around to a democratic mandate? Sure - credit's due there, but you don't normally get a reward for stopping being an arse, and a danger to those around you in many aspects of life, do you? So why expect people to volunteer their support for the late arrivals to democratic principles?

I'd also point to the unfortunate nature of the 'sustained peace' re: the Provos - Robert McCartney, Northern Bank, Paul Quinn, Jimmy McGinley, etc. Stresses and provocations no doubt.