What Has Martin McGuinness Ever Done For The Republic of Ireland?

KELTICKNIGHTT

OMD wrote: »

I am no fan of MMG and can see a multitude of reasons not to vote for him. I will vote against him at the election by giving my vote to all 6 other candidates (even Dana) rather than him. However in this instance I agree with Happyman. The McCabe family need to provide evidence. There is evidence of collusion in the murder of Pat Finnucan
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/oct/13/pat-finucane-scary-admission-state

.

MGG is covered well by adams and sf plus british goverment wouldn't like anything to come out againist mgg as would cause problems with peace process,there is cover ups in hand and maybe from top,garda where told not to act but we never know,maybe we find out some day in future

one thing is certain anywhere near Limerick area,MMG won't get support and he need his body guards

KELTICKNIGHTT

Happyman42 wrote: »

They are making unsubstantiated allegations, over and over again about something that is covered under the terms of the GFA.

like mmg and sf don't ,,please tell another joke

FreudianSlippers

barrmur wrote: »

Your point being?? Not all of us can spend all day posting ya know!!

There's a pretty good touch.boards.ie website for smartphones. It's a great way to fill the duller parts of your day.

Liam Byrne

maccored wrote: »

Surely if a country blanket bombs another country they are targetting civillians? Surely if you shoot directly into crowds of unarmed people in Derry you care targeting civillians?

Absolutely. And remind us again who shouted the loudest about the murders on Bloody Sunday ?

If we were to use the SF/IRA excuses, though, then Bloody Sunday wasn't murder because they didn't "plan" to kill civilians - they just let off guns where civilians happened to be present, in the same way as the IRA let of bombs where civilians happened to be present.

I believe both were murders, but then again I'm not the one arguing that the IRA atrocities weren't. So I have to ask the question :

Do those who believe the IRA bombs weren't murder also believe that the Bloody Sunday shootings weren't murder ?

Because if not, I'd love to have an explanation for the blatant hypocrisy.

Mayo Exile

OMD wrote: »

In fairness Mayo Exile you gave a hypothetical situation which implies you must know the bar was empty and that either there was no people on the street or the people on the street would not be effected. I am not quite sure how you could have a civilian death in these circumstances but even if you could the circumstances are not very realistic.

Yes the bar scenario is just a hypothesis in support of an argument. But do you agree that some plans achieve their goals in reality and others do not and can then be interpreted as mistakes in a war/conflict situation?

Originally posted by Liam Byrne: refuse to face facts

Don't know really how you can accuse somebody else of that!

And if they don't ensure that then they are guilty of at least gross negligence.

Could be considered. Its different to the concept of a planned deliberate act though.

The repeated nature of the so-called "mistakes" undermines your argument completely

With the greatest of respect - in relation to this: for the last time no. It's unrelated to the meaning of a mistake as applied to a conflict situation. Your failure to address the contradictions in what you've stated previously (#559) remains.

Originally posted by barmurr: If you plant a bomb and it kills civillians the deaths are on the hands of those who planned, made and planted the bomb. I really cant see how anyone can see it any other way

Unrelated to mistakes as opposed to plans realising their original outcomes.

maccored

liam - i only see your posts when Im not logged in. anyway - as I have said a zillion billion catrillion times so far to you - besides the deaths of innocents on bloody sunday, what galls republicans is the british claim they werent at war. again, as ive said before ... if it wasnt war then the brits are terrorists as much as the IRA. republicans have no time for the double standards that portrays - and no time for a british government that wont own up to either its own terrorism, or to admitting there was a war. it has to be one or the other. you tell me (not that I'll be able to read it) - what do you think iot is. Was there a war, or are the british government terrorists?

Bannasidhe

maccored wrote: »

liam - i only see your posts when Im not logged in. anyway - as I have said a zillion billion catrillion times so far to you - besides the deaths of innocents on bloody sunday, what galls republicans is the british claim they werent at war. again, as ive said before ... if it wasnt war then the brits are terrorists as much as the IRA. republicans have no time for the double standards that portrays - and no time for a british government that wont own up to either its own terrorism, or to admitting there was a war. it has to be one or the other. you tell me (not that I'll be able to read it) - what do you think iot is. Was there a war, or are the british government terrorists?

Then may I suggest republicans should shame the British government into acknowledging responsibility for the actions of previous British governments by fully acknowledging it's own actions?

Saying where the bodies are buried would be a good start so families can have closure...

Liam Byrne

Mayo Exile wrote: »

Yes the bar scenario is just a hypothesis in support of an argument.

An inappropriate one because it didn't address the core issue.

Mayo Exile wrote: »

Don't know really how you can accuse somebody else of that!

Quite easily, because it's true.

Mayo Exile wrote: »

Could be considered. Its different to the concept of a planned deliberate act though.

As I stated, gross negligence occurs once or twice, then it becomes a foregone conclusion that you're incapable of doing what you're doing, turning any future repetition of that into murder. Most decent people - if they "accidentally" killed someone - would ensure that they damn well didn't the next time, or they'd stop what they were doing.

The undeniable fact is that the IRA did not stop, thereby proving my point.

Mayo Exile wrote: »

With the greatest of respect - in relation to this: for the last time no. It's unrelated to the meaning of a mistake as applied to a conflict situation. Your failure to address the contradictions in what you've stated previously (#559) remains.

I'll go back and have a look at those supposed contradictions and get back to you.

But unless you can square the circle re Bloody Sunday and the apologists' view of that, you haven't a leg to stand on re "mistakes" and the murder of innocents.

Liam Byrne

Just had a look at Post 559 and I haven't a notion what you are on about. There are no contradictions in there.

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

Credit for finally copping on to the futility of their violent campaign, and coming around to a democratic mandate? Sure - credit's due there, but you don't normally get a reward for stopping being an arse, and a danger to those around you in many aspects of life, do you? So why expect people to volunteer their support for the late arrivals to democratic principles?

I'd also point to the unfortunate nature of the 'sustained peace' re: the Provos - Robert McCartney, Northern Bank, Paul Quinn, Jimmy McGinley, etc. Stresses and provocations no doubt.

Countries the world over have trouble keeping the thugish elements of their armies (what army doesn't require a thug element?) in line at the best of times. If you lived here on the border you would know of fist fights at check points and other silly bugger stuff that never got reported.

By and large though there has been a complete cessation by the IRA and you still haven't explained that in any convincing way.

John Major tried to insist on decommissioning before SF got to the table, it was quietly dropped when the IRA refused point blank to do it. Hardly the actions of people who where feeling their campaign was futile.....or would you care to spin that fact too?

Mayo Exile

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Just had a look at Post 559 and I haven't a notion what you are on about. There are no contradictions in there.

:rolleyes:. Finished with you now Liam. Suggest you google "the law of non-contradiction."

Liam Byrne

Mayo Exile wrote: »

:rolleyes:. Finished with you now Liam. Suggest you google "the law of non-contradiction."

Again, nice cop-out. Care to answer the point re "murder" on Bloody Sunday before you go, or is that double-standard too inconvenient a contradiction ?

ieoinu

He's a murderer, has supported the murder of innocents. He lies, lies and lies about anything he's questioned about. Are we supposed to be grateful cos they stopped killing. He claims the credit but denies the involvement. If he was elected President I'd be ashamed to be Irish! Sinn Fein are the political face of orgainsed crime, drug dealers and murderers.

europa11

Happyman42 wrote: »

They are making unsubstantiated allegations, over and over again about something that is covered under the terms of the GFA.

Would that be the GFA which preceded by some years the murder of Jerry McCabe by the IRA?

The very same Agreement signed by the Provos representatives which claimed they were on permanent cease-fire.

Maybe there was a sub-clause that nobody noticed whereby bank and P.O. armed robberies were allowed to continue in order to beef up the "pension fund" - the one that allows people to claim they can live on an average industrial wage.

Liam Byrne

europa11 wrote: »

Would that be the GFA which preceded by some years the murder of Jerry McCabe by the IRA?

The very same Agreement signed by the Provos representatives which claimed they were on permanent cease-fire.

Maybe there was a sub-clause that nobody noticed whereby bank and P.O. robberies were allowed to continue in order to beef up the "pension fund" - the one that allows people to claim they can live on an average industrial wage.

Ah Europa.....that wasn't "sanctioned".....er.....I mean it was (when SF wanted to collect them from prison early)......er no it wasn't, because that would have broken the ceasefire......er it was, because they got out.....er....it wasn't, because it didn't invoke the sanctions which should have applied once they broke the ceasefire......er, it wasn't, because those lowlifes were released and collected by their SF buddy Ferris.

So move along......nothing to see here bar SF talking out of both sides of their mouth.

votecounts

ieoinu wrote: »

He's a murderer, has supported the murder of innocents. He lies, lies and lies about anything he's questioned about. Are we supposed to be grateful cos they stopped killing. He claims the credit but denies the involvement. If he was elected President I'd be ashamed to be Irish! Sinn Fein are the political face of orgainsed crime, drug dealers and murderers.

Yet, I am sure you waited in line to greet the queen who as head of the responsible for the murder of innnoncent irish civilians. Double standards.
Back to the fine gael hq.

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

Countries the world over have trouble keeping the thugish elements of their armies (what army doesn't require a thug element?) in line at the best of times. If you lived here on the border you would know of fist fights at check points and other silly bugger stuff that never got reported.

By and large though there has been a complete cessation by the IRA and you still haven't explained that in any convincing way.

John Major tried to insist on decommissioning before SF got to the table, it was quietly dropped when the IRA refused point blank to do it. Hardly the actions of people who where feeling their campaign was futile.....or would you care to spin that fact too?

Heh. The campaign wasn't futile because John Major had to back down from his starting position on prior decommissioning? Nah, that's not the measure of it's futility - I'd place rather more emphasis on the reaility of the outcome being pretty much Sunningdale for slow learners, and the noticable absense of anything remotely like a 32 county republic. There's your cut and dried futility.

I'm not sure that I subscribe to the 'by and large' aspect of 'complete' by the way - seems pretty much like 'incomplete' to me.

Happyman42

europa11 wrote: »

Would that be the GFA which preceded by some years the murder of Jerry McCabe by the IRA?

eh?

europa11

Liam Byrne wrote: »

So move along......nothing to see here bar SF talking out of both sides of their mouth.

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

Liam Byrne

alastair wrote: »

I'm not sure that I subscribe to the 'by and large' aspect of 'complete' by the way - seems pretty much like 'incomplete' to me.

"by and large" and "complete" are contradictory descriptions, but I'd expect nothing else from SF double-speak.

europa11

Happyman42 wrote: »

eh?

Oh sorry, I'm out by less than two years it seems. Maybe they were on technically on "ceasefire" or mistook Adare for Armagh.

T'was OK so, was it?

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

I'd place rather more emphasis on the reaility of the outcome being pretty much Sunningdale for slow learners, and the

FFS That's just the SDLP's wet dream ^ ^ ^!......The Unionists used their age old veto and destroyed Sunningdale with the British capitulating to them.
Next time around they where a wee bit easier to talk to. Why do you think that was? The SDLP?:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Happyman42

europa11 wrote: »

Oh sorry, I'm out by less than two years it seems. Maybe they were on technically on "ceasefire" or mistook Adare for Armagh.

T'was OK so, was it?

Forgive me, but it was a preposterous misunderstanding of the chronology, I now mistrust your analysis.

Mr Byrne tripping himself up yet again to 'thank', didn't cover himself in glory either.;);)

barrmur

votecounts wrote: »

Yet, I am sure you waited in line to greet the queen who as head of the responsible for the murder of innnoncent irish civilians. Double standards.
Back to the fine gael hq.

The queen aint running for the Aras.

Bannasidhe

barrmur wrote: »

The queen aint running for the Aras.

If she was I wouldn't be surprised if she won...:p

(I'll get just me coat...)

Happyman42

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If she was I wouldn't be surprised if she won...:p

(I'll get just me coat...)

If some around here had their way the place would be polluted with the smell of Corgi shi*e

[MOD]This is not AH.[/MOD]

Bannasidhe

Happyman42 wrote: »

If some around here had their way the place would be polluted with the smell of Corgi shi*e

I wouldn't mind the corgi's so much - it's that dreadful family of her's filling the place with Hooray Henry ****e :eek:

[MOD]This is not AH.[/MOD]

barrmur

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I wouldn't mind the corgi's so much - it's that dreadful family of her's filling the place with Hooray Henry ****e :eek:

Doubt it would happen lads. Imagine the joke that would be someone who dosent live in the state and does not get a vote being in the Aras!! Oh, wait....

Happyman42

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I wouldn't mind the corgi's so much - it's that dreadful family of her's filling the place with Hooray Henry ****e :eek:

I wonder how herself and the Henry's feel about the growing rethink of their own past. Good article in yesterday's Guardian, worth a read...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/oct/19/end-myths-britains-imperial-past

No colony in their empire gave the British more trouble than the island of Ireland. No subject people proved more rebellious than the Irish. From misty start to unending finish, Irish revolt against colonial rule has been the leitmotif that runs through the entire history of empire, causing problems in Ireland, in England itself, and in the most distant parts of the British globe. The British affected to ignore or forget the Irish dimension to their empire, yet the Irish were always present within it, and wherever they landed and established themselves, they never forgot where they had come from.

.................except of course our own partitionists and deniers!:rolleyes:

Liam Byrne

europa11 wrote: »

Oh sorry, I'm out by less than two years it seems. Maybe they were on technically on "ceasefire" or mistook Adare for Armagh.

T'was OK so, was it?

McCabe was murdered in Adare, County Limerick on 7 June 1996
IRA called off its 1994 ceasefire in February 1996

The issue regarding McCabe's murder - aside from the despicable and cowardly murder itself - was the fact that his murderers didn't qualify under the GFA because (according to themselves and Sinn Fein) the murder wasn't "sanctioned", but Sinn Fein still campaigned for their release as if it were somehow a political crime, even though it wasn't.