What Has Martin McGuinness Ever Done For The Republic of Ireland?

LordSutch

jank wrote: »

The north is a much much better place today than it was 30 years ago.

Mostly because the Privisional IRA have stopped killing people.

foggy_lad

Happyman42 wrote: »

Ah right, the tar everybody with same brush approach to Irish history.
The 'you're nothing but a bunch of murderers' astute analysis. :rolleyes:

Dissidents exist and will continue to grow unless we can advance the process. That is a fact of history.

They only exist because of people like mcGuinness.

Happyman42

foggy_lad wrote: »

They only exist because of people like mcGuinness.

What? :eek:

foggy_lad

Happyman42 wrote: »

What? :eek:

If the IRA had been disbanded or had never been given legs in the first place by murders ant terrorists like mcGuinness then there would be no real IRA or. Continuity IRA

Happyman42

foggy_lad wrote: »

If the IRA had been disbanded or had never been given legs in the first place by murders ant terrorists like mcGuinness then there would be no real IRA or. Continuity IRA

Brilliant!

I thought you where being serious for a while there!

Zubeneschamali

Happyman42 wrote: »

Dissidents exist and will continue to grow unless we can advance the process.

Dissidents are doing exactly what McGuinness was doing back in the 70s, continuing the armed struggle. If it was justified then, it's justified now.

If it's just counter-productive violence now in defiance of the will of the people as expressed through constitutional politics, well, welcome to my view of McGuinness since the 70s.

Happyman42

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Dissidents are doing exactly what McGuinness was doing back in the 70s, continuing the armed struggle. If it was justified then, it's justified now.

If it's just counter-productive violence now in defiance of the will of the people as expressed through constitutional politics, well, welcome to my view of McGuinness since the 70s.

The 'will of the people' is a cosy fireside moralistic mantra, and in the history of Ireland counts for very little. You can shout all you want about 'it's not the will of the people' while the world caves in around you.
It's not a position of any value. Never has been. It's just denying the reality.

I have been on other threads saying that we ignore the dissidents at our peril.
It is called a 'peace process' for a reason and if people get left behind then we will be in trouble again.
We must keep moving forward, that is what will silence the guns.

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

The 'will of the people' is a cosy fireside moralistic mantra

Glad to see you nail your colours to the mast. I'll stick with a democratic mandate over the alternatives.

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

Glad to see you nail your colours to the mast. I'll stick with a democratic mandate over the alternatives.

No nails or colours Alastair, just an acceptance of the reality.

We implored them for years to leave the guns down, they did, thrashed out an internationally binding agreement and STILL some want retribution regardless of the cost.
Sad to see that there are still partitionists here who will treat NI as second class citizens.....'Living under suspicion
Putting up with the hatred and fear in their eyes
You can see that you're nothing but a murderer
In their eyes, we're nothing but a bunch of murderers ', as Paul Brady says.

Bannasidhe

psinno wrote: »

I thought he was tainted for being a paramilitary. Next one will be tainted by association.

Kathleen Lynch already is - hasn't done her any harm.

jank

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Unfortunately that's a half-truth. The problem with MMcG is that he most certainly was a member and in fact was convicted (twice IIRC). It's all well and good to turn around now and say that he isn't anymore; but some people are never going to believe that regardless of the evidence. Unfortunately with MMcG there is no evidence that he is no longer a member other than a fairly unconvincing verbal "promise".

My 2nd cousin is a priest, he belongs to an organisation that oversaw the abuse and rape of children. Should I then say that my cousin is a rapist? Like I have no proof that he did but he belongs to the catholic church. Guilt by association seems to be de jour on boards.ie and the wider media.

jank

barrmur wrote: »

Well considering he has before admitted he was a member of the IRA and now claims he isn't surely the burden if proof is with him to show he is no longer a member as he states??

What kind of proof would be good enough for you. A resignation letter, a p45, a taped recording?

jank

LordSutch wrote: »

Mostly because the Privisional IRA have stopped killing people.

Mostly?? Yes that is one reason, the others are probably too complicated for you to comprehend.

jank

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

only lies here is sf supporters lies
and mcguinness lies even when asked by paddy kelly's son who called mcguinness a liar on rte news.

So you admit you are wrong?

jank

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

show proof he's not a member of PIRA and show here that he's not a liar
mcguinness didn't recognize the courts of state of Ireland ? or has he changed his mind again .

Your mothers a witch, show proof she is not...:pac::rolleyes:
We can do this all day.

tfitzgerald

Whatever went on in his past without mr mcguinness we would have no peace process in the north he should get credit where it's due . Also he would sort out the banks for us . Sein Fein were always good at getting banks to hand over money:)

Bannasidhe

Happyman42 wrote: »

Fair enough, but I think you are being a tad harsh on McG. He has plenty to say on the Constitution and has actually gotten his hands dirty, dealing with Human Rights issues. (even if you don't agree with his methods, parity of esteem and equality has been achieved)
What has Norris ever said of import about Northern Ireland discrimination?

I don't think it is - I am making my decisions based on what the candidates did for/in the 26 counties - not NI. The reality of mylife - and I am one of many - is I grew up in those same 26 counties and NI was something I saw on the news. We had our own civil liberties issue here - it may not have been the military or Loyalist paramilitaries but do not doubt the power and control of the RRC over civil society - they were just a bit more subtle about it. The Troubles did not seriously impact on my life until I moved to London in the 80s - when becoming a victim of an IRA bomb was for more likely then my ever suffering at the hands of Loyalists.

I will make my decision based on the current political situation [we are not. yet. united] and assess the records of the various candidates work in the 26 county republic as this is where they seek to be head of state. One may not agree with his methods but M McG advocated for civil liberties in NI -absolutely - but he did feck all for us under the heel of Catholicism down here. That is the criteria for which I have to decide if I think he is the right candidate for president of the republic of Ireland (name pendants -don't even Start!).

Norris has spoken out on global civil rights issues - but is, however a member of Seanad Éireann - so his focus was naturally on the 26 counties - and he has a proven track record here.

blahfckingblah

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

Don't agree with this same sein fein propaganda we in south have been hearing for long ,long time,MOST SEIN FEIN can't accept what fact is island has 2 parts,one is state of Ireland and northern Ireland which is part of united kingdom till people and all the people decide in majority to change
mcguinnes caused the troubles with others in north and mcguinness had no choice but to get the good friday agreement in place,we all can remember the length it too to get all parties too agree to that.
sein fein and mmg are there own worst enemies .
nothing has changed in over 30 years in sein feins fascist views and can be seen in its supporters.

What is this Sinn Fein propaganda you keep talking about?? and Mcguinness didn't cause the troubes as I said before there are a number of reasons the troubles started, mainly social reasons and civil rights.
Most sinn fein nothing, sinn fein accepted the Belfast agreement anyone who didn't like it split with them and thats why we have problems now (e.g the bomb in Derry). A lot has changed in 30 years its naive to say nothing has changed. Are you going to keep on with this empty rhetoric or do you have any actual problems you want to address.
P.S please try to phrase your posts better it makes for easier reading, and don't tell me I'm only saying it because I don't like what you're saying again, thats not the case I'm open for debate

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

No nails or colours Alastair, just an acceptance of the reality.

We implored them for years to leave the guns down, they did, thrashed out an internationally binding agreement and STILL some want retribution regardless of the cost.
Sad to see that there are still partitionists here who will treat NI as second class citizens.....'Living under suspicion
Putting up with the hatred and fear in their eyes
You can see that you're nothing but a murderer
In their eyes, we're nothing but a bunch of murderers ', as Paul Brady says.

I don't hear anyone saying McGuinness is nothing but a murderer. But the concern that he is indeed a murderer is there - with some justification. The 'retribution' of not wanting to vote for someone with blood on their hands - particularly when there's the attached hypocrisy of denying reality - is not retribution at all - no-one is stopping McGuinness running, but that's no argument for voting for him. Again - the 'partitionist' nonsense can be dismissed with the facts on the ground - Mary McAleese.

Happyman42

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I don't think it is - I am making my decisions based on what the candidates did for/in the 26 counties - not NI. The reality of mylife - and I am one of many - is I grew up in those same 26 counties and NI was something I saw on the news. We had our own civil liberties issue here - it may not have been the military or Loyalist paramilitaries but do not doubt the power and control of the RRC over civil society - they were just a bit more subtle about it. The Troubles did not seriously impact on my life until I moved to London in the 80s - when becoming a victim of an IRA bomb was for more likely then my ever suffering at the hands of Loyalists.

I will make my decision based on the current political situation [we are not. yet. united] and assess the records of the various candidates work in the 26 county republic as this is where they seek to be head of state. One may not agree with his methods but M McG advocated for civil liberties in NI -absolutely - but he did feck all for us under the heel of Catholicism down here. That is the criteria for which I have to decide if I think he is the right candidate for president of the republic of Ireland (name pendants -don't even Start!).

Norris has spoken out on global civil rights issues - but is, however a member of Seanad Éireann - so his focus was naturally on the 26 counties - and he has a proven track record here.

The Troubles seriously impinged on life in the South. In many ways, not least was the economic pressures of maintaining a border. In my town there where over 90 Gardai and I don't know how many soldiers, backed up by regular helicopter support. There are now 3 Gardai resident and 8 or 9 man the station and go home at 6pm. I don't know when I last saw a soldier (Foot and Mouth maybe?) and the only helicopters around belong to Larry Goodman.
That line of security stretched from Ballyshannon to Newry.
Add to that the Heavy Gang and Special Branch numbers in Dublin and around the country.
So, peace brought an economic dividend.
From a societal point of view it also impinged on a decreasing scale down from the border too.
So it's wrong to say , it had little impact. The people of Donegal, Cavan, Leitrim, Monaghan and Louth are citizens too.
I do think that part of the problem was that the majority in the South just weren't aware of the reality.

Bannasidhe

Happyman42 wrote: »

I do think that part of the problem was that the majority in the South just weren't aware of the reality.

I agree - but I also think the majority in NI have/had no idea of the reality 'down here' - McG seems to share that lack of awareness - it is all very well to state he will be a president for 32 counties, when he has yet to discuss the reality of life in the majority of those counties in anything but the vaguest terms. He is running on his record in 6 of those 32 - yet the position he seeks is to be head of the other 26. I am not questioning his record in NI - I'm saying he has no comparable record in the actual jurisdiction he is running for election in - and comes across as disinterested in life in the 'south'.

Happyman42

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I agree - but I also think the majority in NI have/had no idea of the reality 'down here' - McG seems to share that lack of awareness - it is all very well to state he will be a president for 32 counties, when he has yet to discuss the reality of life in the majority of those counties in anything but the vaguest terms. He is running on his record in 6 of those 32 - yet the position he seeks is to be head of the other 26. I am not questioning his record in NI - I'm saying he has no comparable record in the actual jurisdiction he is running for election in - and comes across as disinterested in life in the 'south'.

I don't think you can say that to be honest. SF are very engaged in the Dail and constitutional politics here. I think if the media shifted it's ridiculous focus and hidden agenda we might get people like you some answers. But I think I may be dreaming there.

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

I don't think you can say that to be honest. SF are very engaged in the Dail and constitutional politics here. I think if the media shifted it's ridiculous focus and hidden agenda we might get people like you some answers. But I think I may be dreaming there.

McGuinness isn't a SF candidate - remember?

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

McGuinness isn't a SF candidate - remember?

Why are you so concerned with his SF past then?

Bannasidhe

Happyman42 wrote: »

I don't think you can say that to be honest. SF are very engaged in the Dail and constitutional politics here. I think if the media shifted it's ridiculous focus and hidden agenda we might get people like you some answers. But I think I may be dreaming there.

Ah - but McGuinness is not a SF candidate now is he - he is running as an independent . Even if he were - I am not looking at the Labour Party's track record when considering Higgins...so why should I look at SF's when looking at McGuinness? The presidency is, after all, meant to be above party politics . I can only assess McG on his track record in the 26 counties - the reality is he doesn't have one...

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

Why are you so concerned with his SF past then?

I'm not remotely interested in his SF past - it's his IRA past that most people have concerns about. And if he's not a SF candidate, you can't really claim that the SF role in the republic is anything to do with him, can you? He's running on his own record.

alastair

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I can only assess McG on his track record in the 26 counties - the reality is he doesn't have one...

Except for transporting explosives.

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

I'm not remotely interested in his SF past - it's his IRA past that most people have concerns about. And if he's not a SF candidate, you can't really claim that the SF role in the republic is anything to do with him, can you? He's running on his own record.

But...but ...he's not running as an IRA man. :rolleyes:

Happyman42

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Ah - but McGuinness is not a SF candidate now is he - he is running as an independent . Even if he were - I am not looking at the Labour Party's track record when considering Higgins...so why should I look at SF's when looking at McGuinness? The presidency is, after all, meant to be above party politics . I can only assess McG on his track record in the 26 counties - the reality is he doesn't have one...

So what has MDH contributed outside the Labour Party? Poems?

marienbad

jank wrote: »

Actually it is the reverse that is the case. If you call someone say a rapist, then you have to put forward evidence to base your case.
I can call your mother a witch and 500 years ago that accusation alone would probably have been sufficient to have her burned at the stake. Now we have a court of law that one has to submit evidence.

I hear all these things about Martin McGuinness but no evidence from anyone in the media or here.

pity the same rules of evidence were not used for some of their victims

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

But...but ...he's not running as an IRA man. :rolleyes:

He is a Provo running for president. It's part of his personal record. A part he'd like us to forget admittedly, but there you go.

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

He is a Provo running for president. It's part of his personal record. A part he'd like us to forget admittedly, but there you go.

And his membership of SF is not part of his personal record?
Running with the hare and hunting with the hounds Alastair???

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

And his membership of SF is not part of his personal record?
Running with the hare and hunting with the hounds Alastair???

He said he's not a SF candidate. I'm simply reminding you where people's concerns regarding him lie.

FreudianSlippers

jank wrote: »

My 2nd cousin is a priest, he belongs to an organisation that oversaw the abuse and rape of children. Should I then say that my cousin is a rapist? Like I have no proof that he did but he belongs to the catholic church. Guilt by association seems to be de jour on boards.ie and the wider media.

In 1973, McGuinness was convicted by the Special Criminal Court of possession of over 100kilos of explosives and around 5,000 rounds of ammo. He spent six months in prison.

In 1974 he was convicted of membership of the IRA and again sentenced to Portlaoise.

So, we're not exactly talking about a comparable issue. If your second cousin was arrested and charged of the crime, then it's reasonable to deduce that he was involved.

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

He said he's not a SF candidate. I'm simply reminding you where people's concerns regarding him lie.

Yeh...you said.... 'he's a Provo running for President'!

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

Yeh...you said.... 'he's a Provo running for President'!

That wasn't too difficult now, was it?

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

That wasn't too difficult now, was it?

Some votes aren't worth having.
Martin's loss is David's gain!:rolleyes:

K-9

Happyman42 wrote: »

'Living under suspicion
Putting up with the hatred and fear in their eyes
You can see that you're nothing but a murderer
In their eyes, we're nothing but a bunch of murderers ', as Paul Brady says.

The Strabane man had a few things to say about people trying to bomb their way to freedom too.

phog

I wonder if Martin is elected president of Ireland and he goes on a trade mission with a government minister and there's an offer of jobs for Ireland but from his contacts in the NI assembly he knows these jobs are also on offer to NI what would he do?

Go with his old constituency or his new constituency?

Happyman42

K-9 wrote: »

The Strabane man had a few things to say about people trying to bomb their way to freedom too.

He changed his viewpoint....shock horror!

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

He changed his viewpoint....shock horror!

I don't think Paul Brady changed his viewpoint at all - he was no friend to apologists for violence at any point.

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

I don't think Paul Brady changed his viewpoint at all - he was no friend to apologists for violence at any point.

Arthur McBride?

But then maybe he was one of the deniers, happy to sing about it, but of course, :eek: 'it has nothing to do with me'!

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

Arthur McBride?

But then maybe he was one of the deniers, happy to sing about it, but of course, :eek: 'it has nothing to do with me'!

What's the 'it' you think he's singing about?

“Up here we sacrifice our children
To feed the worn-out dreams of yesterday “

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

What's the 'it' you think he's singing about?

Way off topic. But from his earlier career, the word of Arthur McBride.


And then Arthur and I we soon drew our hods
And we scarce gave them time for to draw their own blades
When a trusty shillelagh came over their heads
And bade them take that as fair warning

And their old rusty rapiers that hung by their side
We flung them as far as we could in the tide
"Now take them out, Divils!", cried Arthur McBride
"And temper their edge in the morning".
And the little wee drummer we flattened his pow
And we made a football of his rowdeydowdow
Threw it in the tide for to rock and to row
And bade it a tedious returning

And we having no money, paid them off in cracks
And we paid no respect to their two bloody backs
For we lathered them there like a pair of wet sacks
And left them for dead in the morning.

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

Way off topic. But from his earlier career, the word of Arthur McBride.


And then Arthur and I we soon drew our hods
And we scarce gave them time for to draw their own blades
When a trusty shillelagh came over their heads
And bade them take that as fair warning

And their old rusty rapiers that hung by their side
We flung them as far as we could in the tide
"Now take them out, Divils!", cried Arthur McBride
"And temper their edge in the morning".
And the little wee drummer we flattened his pow
And we made a football of his rowdeydowdow
Threw it in the tide for to rock and to row
And bade it a tedious returning

And we having no money, paid them off in cracks
And we paid no respect to their two bloody backs
For we lathered them there like a pair of wet sacks
And left them for dead in the morning.

You do realise he didn't write that - it's a traditional number, and it has nothing to do with republicanism?

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

You do realise he didn't write that - it's a traditional number, and it has nothing to do with republicanism?

:D 'They made me sing it your honour'!


You need to allow people to change Alastair. Swallow hard and try it yourself. Very redemptive.

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

:D 'They made me sing it your honour'!


You need to allow people to change Alastair. Swallow hard and try it yourself. Very redemptive.

You need to acknowledge that Paul Brady never supported the IRA - he was consistently and vocally opposed to violence. He sang lots of other traditional songs about pixies and seductive gypsys too - but that doesn't mean he advocated either - look to his own writing to see a consistent line against political violence - and the damage it caused for the people of NI.

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

You need to acknowledge that Paul Brady never supported the IRA

Where did I say that? God you are getting kinda desperate on two threads.

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

Where did I say that? God you are getting kinda desperate on two threads.

I see the desperation alright:

Happyman wrote:

Originally Posted by K-9
The Strabane man had a few things to say about people trying to bomb their way to freedom too.

He changed his viewpoint....shock horror!

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

I see the desperation alright:

So all people of Republican persuasion where in The IRA? :D:D:D