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What Has Martin McGuinness Ever Done For The Republic of Ireland?

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    #242
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »
    Don't agree with this same sein fein propaganda we in south have been hearing for long ,long time,MOST SEIN FEIN can't accept what fact is island has 2 parts,one is state of Ireland and northern Ireland which is part of united kingdom till people and all the people decide in majority to change
    mcguinnes caused the troubles with others in north and mcguinness had no choice but to get the good friday agreement in place,we all can remember the length it too to get all parties too agree to that.
    sein fein and mmg are there own worst enemies .
    nothing has changed in over 30 years in sein feins fascist views and can be seen in its supporters.

    Seriously, who wants to listen to this crap and outright lies? The north is a much much better place today than it was 30 years ago. You are a ranting raving lunatic if you think otherwise. Saying something is so doesnt make it so and please please please start checking your grammer as your post is mostly gibberish.


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    #243
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »
    HE was called a liar on rte news during the week by son of paddy Kelly, Irish defense forces soldier, who was murdered ,David Kelly asked him where the PIRA murdering killers where and Marty Mcguinness denied knowing anything and d,kelly called Him a liar,MMG has denied alot of thing which most people even around the world don't believe him, mmg is known Liar
    So it's up to MMG and supporters to prove otherwise but guess what people in south don't believe a ex-terrorist.

    Actually it is the reverse that is the case. If you call someone say a rapist, then you have to put forward evidence to base your case.
    I can call your mother a witch and 500 years ago that accusation alone would probably have been sufficient to have her burned at the stake. Now we have a court of law that one has to submit evidence.

    I hear all these things about Martin McGuinness but no evidence from anyone in the media or here.


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    #244
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Just as long as he forgets about those in Londonderry and the rest of the North as he is not their president, he will be president of the Ireland not including Northern Ireland!

    The President of Ireland is a fairly powerless post, the President addresses the entire Irish diaspora, those in NI who see themselves as Irish (it is a right in the GFA, won for them by SF/Martin McGuinness) Mary McAleese does it a bit already and McGuinness would be much more overt in addressing that constituency.
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    We just have to look at the language being used by sinn fein supporters and it is very clear that the conflict is far from over for many people and the balaclava and gun are only stuffed down the back of the sofa. When any group of people repeat the same mantra over and over it is a sign of brainwashing not truth or facts.

    Fascinating, and there was me thinking I was listening to the partitonist mantra. There is a latent violence in the language of Kelticnight and a few others.
    What makes yo think that the balaclava and gun are only stuffed down the back of a sofa?
    I insist you answer that with examples.


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    #245
    Sunnyisland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »
    Don't agree with this same sinn fein propaganda we in south have been hearing for long ,long time,MOST SEIN FEIN can't accept what fact is island has 2 parts,one is state of Ireland and northern Ireland which is part of united kingdom till people and all the people decide in majority to change
    mcguinness caused the troubles with others in north and mcguinness had no choice but to get the good friday agreement in place,we all can remember the length it too to get all parties too agree to that.
    sinn fein and mmg are there own worst enemies .
    nothing has changed in over 30 years in sein feind fascist views and can be seen in its supporters.




    There is little agreement on the exact date of the start of the Troubles. Different writers have suggested different dates. These include the formation of the UVF in 1966,the civil rights march in Derry on 5 October 1968, the beginning of the 'Battle of the Bogside' on 12 August 1969 or the deployment of British troops on 14 August 1969.Cant see any mention of martin mcguinness or the IRA must be mistaken as i was other the impression by some of the posters here that he & his organisation started them.


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    #246
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    jank wrote: »
    Actually it is the reverse that is the case. If you call someone say a rapist, then you have to put forward evidence to base your case.
    I can call your mother a witch and 500 years ago that accusation alone would probably have been sufficient to have her burned at the stake. Now we have a court of law that one has to submit evidence.

    I hear all these things about Martin McGuinness but no evidence from anyone in the media or here.
    Unfortunately that's a half-truth. The problem with MMcG is that he most certainly was a member and in fact was convicted (twice IIRC). It's all well and good to turn around now and say that he isn't anymore; but some people are never going to believe that regardless of the evidence. Unfortunately with MMcG there is no evidence that he is no longer a member other than a fairly unconvincing verbal "promise".


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    #247
    barrmur
    Registered Users Posts: 109 ✭✭barrmur


    jank wrote: »
    Actually it is the reverse that is the case. If you call someone say a rapist, then you have to put forward evidence to base your case.
    I can call your mother a witch and 500 years ago that accusation alone would probably have been sufficient to have her burned at the stake. Now we have a court of law that one has to submit evidence.

    Well considering he has before admitted he was a member of the IRA and now claims he isn't surely the burden if proof is with him to show he is no longer a member as he states??


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    #248
    KELTICKNIGHTT
    Registered Users Posts: 3,799 ✭✭✭KELTICKNIGHTT


    jank wrote: »
    Seriously, who wants to listen to this crap and outright lies? The north is a much much better place today than it was 30 years ago. You are a ranting raving lunatic if you think otherwise. Saying something is so doesnt make it so and please please please start checking your grammer as your post is mostly gibberish.

    only lies here is sf supporters lies
    and mcguinness lies even when asked by paddy kelly's son who called mcguinness a liar on rte news.


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    #249
    KELTICKNIGHTT
    Registered Users Posts: 3,799 ✭✭✭KELTICKNIGHTT


    jank wrote: »
    Actually it is the reverse that is the case. If you call someone say a rapist, then you have to put forward evidence to base your case.
    I can call your mother a witch and 500 years ago that accusation alone would probably have been sufficient to have her burned at the stake. Now we have a court of law that one has to submit evidence.

    I hear all these things about Martin McGuinness but no evidence from anyone in the media or here.

    show proof he's not a member of PIRA and show here that he's not a liar
    mcguinness didn't recognize the courts of state of Ireland ? or has he changed his mind again .


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    #250
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    The President of Ireland is a fairly powerless post, the President addresses the entire Irish diaspora, those in NI who see themselves as Irish (it is a right in the GFA, won for them by SF/Martin McGuinness) Mary McAleese does it a bit already and McGuinness would be much more overt in addressing that constituency.



    Fascinating, and there was me thinking I was listening to the partitonist mantra. There is a latent violence in the language of Kelticnight and a few others.
    What makes yo think that the balaclava and gun are only stuffed down the back of a sofa?
    I insist you answer that with examples.
    The constant instances of bomb blasts and finds of viable devices both north and south shows that the murderers are still active.


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    #251
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    The constant instances of bomb blasts and finds of viable devices both north and south shows that the murderers are still active.

    Ah right, the tar everybody with same brush approach to Irish history.
    The 'you're nothing but a bunch of murderers' astute analysis. :rolleyes:

    Dissidents exist and will continue to grow unless we can advance the process. That is a fact of history.


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    #252
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    jank wrote: »
    The north is a much much better place today than it was 30 years ago.

    Mostly because the Privisional IRA have stopped killing people.


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    #253
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Ah right, the tar everybody with same brush approach to Irish history.
    The 'you're nothing but a bunch of murderers' astute analysis. :rolleyes:

    Dissidents exist and will continue to grow unless we can advance the process. That is a fact of history.
    They only exist because of people like mcGuinness.


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    #254
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    They only exist because of people like mcGuinness.

    What? :eek:


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    #255
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    What? :eek:
    If the IRA had been disbanded or had never been given legs in the first place by murders ant terrorists like mcGuinness then there would be no real IRA or. Continuity IRA


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    #256
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    If the IRA had been disbanded or had never been given legs in the first place by murders ant terrorists like mcGuinness then there would be no real IRA or. Continuity IRA

    Brilliant! :D

    I thought you where being serious for a while there!


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    #257
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Dissidents exist and will continue to grow unless we can advance the process.

    Dissidents are doing exactly what McGuinness was doing back in the 70s, continuing the armed struggle. If it was justified then, it's justified now.

    If it's just counter-productive violence now in defiance of the will of the people as expressed through constitutional politics, well, welcome to my view of McGuinness since the 70s.


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    #258
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Dissidents are doing exactly what McGuinness was doing back in the 70s, continuing the armed struggle. If it was justified then, it's justified now.

    If it's just counter-productive violence now in defiance of the will of the people as expressed through constitutional politics, well, welcome to my view of McGuinness since the 70s.

    The 'will of the people' is a cosy fireside moralistic mantra, and in the history of Ireland counts for very little. You can shout all you want about 'it's not the will of the people' while the world caves in around you.
    It's not a position of any value. Never has been. It's just denying the reality.

    I have been on other threads saying that we ignore the dissidents at our peril.
    It is called a 'peace process' for a reason and if people get left behind then we will be in trouble again.
    We must keep moving forward, that is what will silence the guns.


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    #259
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    The 'will of the people' is a cosy fireside moralistic mantra

    Glad to see you nail your colours to the mast. I'll stick with a democratic mandate over the alternatives.


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    #260
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    Glad to see you nail your colours to the mast. I'll stick with a democratic mandate over the alternatives.

    No nails or colours Alastair, just an acceptance of the reality.

    We implored them for years to leave the guns down, they did, thrashed out an internationally binding agreement and STILL some want retribution regardless of the cost.
    Sad to see that there are still partitionists here who will treat NI as second class citizens.....'Living under suspicion
    Putting up with the hatred and fear in their eyes
    You can see that you're nothing but a murderer
    In their eyes, we're nothing but a bunch of murderers ', as Paul Brady says.


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    #261
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    psinno wrote: »
    I thought he was tainted for being a paramilitary. Next one will be tainted by association.

    Kathleen Lynch already is - hasn't done her any harm.


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    #262
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    Unfortunately that's a half-truth. The problem with MMcG is that he most certainly was a member and in fact was convicted (twice IIRC). It's all well and good to turn around now and say that he isn't anymore; but some people are never going to believe that regardless of the evidence. Unfortunately with MMcG there is no evidence that he is no longer a member other than a fairly unconvincing verbal "promise".

    My 2nd cousin is a priest, he belongs to an organisation that oversaw the abuse and rape of children. Should I then say that my cousin is a rapist? Like I have no proof that he did but he belongs to the catholic church. Guilt by association seems to be de jour on boards.ie and the wider media.


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    #263
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    barrmur wrote: »
    Well considering he has before admitted he was a member of the IRA and now claims he isn't surely the burden if proof is with him to show he is no longer a member as he states??

    What kind of proof would be good enough for you. A resignation letter, a p45, a taped recording?


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    #264
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Mostly because the Privisional IRA have stopped killing people.

    Mostly?? Yes that is one reason, the others are probably too complicated for you to comprehend.


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    #265
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »
    only lies here is sf supporters lies
    and mcguinness lies even when asked by paddy kelly's son who called mcguinness a liar on rte news.

    So you admit you are wrong?


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    #266
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »
    show proof he's not a member of PIRA and show here that he's not a liar
    mcguinness didn't recognize the courts of state of Ireland ? or has he changed his mind again .

    Your mothers a witch, show proof she is not...:pac::rolleyes:
    We can do this all day.


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    #267
    tfitzgerald
    Registered Users Posts: 2,285 ✭✭✭tfitzgerald


    Whatever went on in his past without mr mcguinness we would have no peace process in the north he should get credit where it's due . Also he would sort out the banks for us . Sein Fein were always good at getting banks to hand over money:)


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    #268
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Fair enough, but I think you are being a tad harsh on McG. He has plenty to say on the Constitution and has actually gotten his hands dirty, dealing with Human Rights issues. (even if you don't agree with his methods, parity of esteem and equality has been achieved)
    What has Norris ever said of import about Northern Ireland discrimination?

    I don't think it is - I am making my decisions based on what the candidates did for/in the 26 counties - not NI. The reality of mylife - and I am one of many - is I grew up in those same 26 counties and NI was something I saw on the news. We had our own civil liberties issue here - it may not have been the military or Loyalist paramilitaries but do not doubt the power and control of the RRC over civil society - they were just a bit more subtle about it. The Troubles did not seriously impact on my life until I moved to London in the 80s - when becoming a victim of an IRA bomb was for more likely then my ever suffering at the hands of Loyalists.

    I will make my decision based on the current political situation [we are not. yet. united] and assess the records of the various candidates work in the 26 county republic as this is where they seek to be head of state. One may not agree with his methods but M McG advocated for civil liberties in NI -absolutely - but he did feck all for us under the heel of Catholicism down here. That is the criteria for which I have to decide if I think he is the right candidate for president of the republic of Ireland (name pendants -don't even Start!).

    Norris has spoken out on global civil rights issues - but is, however a member of Seanad Éireann - so his focus was naturally on the 26 counties - and he has a proven track record here.


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    #269
    blahfckingblah
    Registered Users Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭blahfckingblah


    KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »
    Don't agree with this same sein fein propaganda we in south have been hearing for long ,long time,MOST SEIN FEIN can't accept what fact is island has 2 parts,one is state of Ireland and northern Ireland which is part of united kingdom till people and all the people decide in majority to change
    mcguinnes caused the troubles with others in north and mcguinness had no choice but to get the good friday agreement in place,we all can remember the length it too to get all parties too agree to that.
    sein fein and mmg are there own worst enemies .
    nothing has changed in over 30 years in sein feins fascist views and can be seen in its supporters.
    What is this Sinn Fein propaganda you keep talking about?? and Mcguinness didn't cause the troubes as I said before there are a number of reasons the troubles started, mainly social reasons and civil rights.
    Most sinn fein nothing, sinn fein accepted the Belfast agreement anyone who didn't like it split with them and thats why we have problems now (e.g the bomb in Derry). A lot has changed in 30 years its naive to say nothing has changed. Are you going to keep on with this empty rhetoric or do you have any actual problems you want to address.
    P.S please try to phrase your posts better it makes for easier reading, and don't tell me I'm only saying it because I don't like what you're saying again, thats not the case I'm open for debate


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    #270
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    No nails or colours Alastair, just an acceptance of the reality.

    We implored them for years to leave the guns down, they did, thrashed out an internationally binding agreement and STILL some want retribution regardless of the cost.
    Sad to see that there are still partitionists here who will treat NI as second class citizens.....'Living under suspicion
    Putting up with the hatred and fear in their eyes
    You can see that you're nothing but a murderer
    In their eyes, we're nothing but a bunch of murderers ', as Paul Brady says.

    I don't hear anyone saying McGuinness is nothing but a murderer. But the concern that he is indeed a murderer is there - with some justification. The 'retribution' of not wanting to vote for someone with blood on their hands - particularly when there's the attached hypocrisy of denying reality - is not retribution at all - no-one is stopping McGuinness running, but that's no argument for voting for him. Again - the 'partitionist' nonsense can be dismissed with the facts on the ground - Mary McAleese.


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    #271
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    I don't think it is - I am making my decisions based on what the candidates did for/in the 26 counties - not NI. The reality of mylife - and I am one of many - is I grew up in those same 26 counties and NI was something I saw on the news. We had our own civil liberties issue here - it may not have been the military or Loyalist paramilitaries but do not doubt the power and control of the RRC over civil society - they were just a bit more subtle about it. The Troubles did not seriously impact on my life until I moved to London in the 80s - when becoming a victim of an IRA bomb was for more likely then my ever suffering at the hands of Loyalists.

    I will make my decision based on the current political situation [we are not. yet. united] and assess the records of the various candidates work in the 26 county republic as this is where they seek to be head of state. One may not agree with his methods but M McG advocated for civil liberties in NI -absolutely - but he did feck all for us under the heel of Catholicism down here. That is the criteria for which I have to decide if I think he is the right candidate for president of the republic of Ireland (name pendants -don't even Start!).

    Norris has spoken out on global civil rights issues - but is, however a member of Seanad Éireann - so his focus was naturally on the 26 counties - and he has a proven track record here.

    The Troubles seriously impinged on life in the South. In many ways, not least was the economic pressures of maintaining a border. In my town there where over 90 Gardai and I don't know how many soldiers, backed up by regular helicopter support. There are now 3 Gardai resident and 8 or 9 man the station and go home at 6pm. I don't know when I last saw a soldier (Foot and Mouth maybe?) and the only helicopters around belong to Larry Goodman.
    That line of security stretched from Ballyshannon to Newry.
    Add to that the Heavy Gang and Special Branch numbers in Dublin and around the country.
    So, peace brought an economic dividend.
    From a societal point of view it also impinged on a decreasing scale down from the border too.
    So it's wrong to say , it had little impact. The people of Donegal, Cavan, Leitrim, Monaghan and Louth are citizens too.
    I do think that part of the problem was that the majority in the South just weren't aware of the reality.


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