Racing flats versus Regular training shoes

seanynova

i wore flats in a maratohn yesterday and my feet were killing me from early on, i wore them in a half earlier in the year but i wont be wearing them again for a marathon unless i train in them etc....
i actually used them for a marathon last year also and they hurt then too but i forgot how much!
yesterday was defo worse as it also effected my ability to keep pace. i actually had to focus on heel striking to take pressure off the balls of my feet...and there were a few face cringes thrown in for good measure.

woke up today with numb toes....

not ruling them out but would recommend training in them(LSR's etc) before making a decision.

Clearlier

I started off with the Mizuno Wave Inspire range and moved on to the Wave Rider range when I got a bit fitter and more stable - the difference was incredible. I picked up some Musha's a few months ago because I just didn't like the feel of the new wave rider (14). I quickly realised that I can't run fast in them while carrying the extra weight that I do. I do however use them for recovery runs and it really helps me to focus on my form. The lazy foot position that I can get away with in the wave riders gives me jarring pain in the Musha's. I'd love to use them in a race but I'm going to have to lose the weight first. In the meantime I think that they're a great tool for working on my stride.

Domer

Looking for some input and whether people put their Orthodics into their flats? I have always shy'd away from using buying flats for fear of them resulting in problems due to not wearing my orthodics. Just did a quick check by weighing one of my Asics 2160. One shoe weights 390grams with the supplied insoles, and 470grams with the customer orthodics. The orthodics weigh 105 grams each comparted to 25 grams for the generic insoles, so it seems putting the orthodics into racing flats defeats the whole purpose of having racing flats at all. I would like to used them over 5k-10k only.

Anybody else have this problem, and what do people do?

Thanks
Domer

Krusty_Clown

Clearlier wrote: »

I do however use them for recovery runs and it really helps me to focus on my form. The lazy foot position that I can get away with in the wave riders gives me jarring pain in the Musha's. I'd love to use them in a race but I'm going to have to lose the weight first. In the meantime I think that they're a great tool for working on my stride.

Presumably you'd get a similar benefit from wearing spikes. I wore some at the weekend, to start breaking them in for an upcoming xc race, and found them so minimalist, that I felt it would have a positive impact on my form (even on grass). Would like to pick up some cheap Mushas, but I reckon I've a few too many pairs of running shoes at the moment. I fear I'm turning into a RacoonQueen.

Brianderunner

seanynova wrote: »

i wore flats in a maratohn yesterday and my feet were killing me from early on, i wore them in a half earlier in the year but i wont be wearing them again for a marathon unless i train in them etc....

+1, I made that mistake once too, never to be repeated. Racing flats are for sub 2'30 marathoners imo.

Clearlier

Domer wrote: »

Looking for some input and whether people put their Orthodics into their flats? I have always shy'd away from using buying flats for fear of them resulting in problems due to not wearing my orthodics. Just did a quick check by weighing one of my Asics 2160. One shoe weights 390grams with the supplied insoles, and 470grams with the customer orthodics. The orthodics weigh 105 grams each comparted to 25 grams for the generic insoles, so it seems putting the orthodics into racing flats defeats the whole purpose of having racing flats at all. I would like to used them over 5k-10k only.

Anybody else have this problem, and what do people do?

Thanks
Domer

I use orthotics and put them in flats just like other runners. The only issue I've ever had with them in shoes was when I put them in spikes and tried to sprint. Obviously I was on my toes then so the orthotics were redundant and the weight actually pulled the heel of the spike away from my foot and it kept slapping back into my heel on every stride.

n-dawg

I have two pairs of "flats" for racing in, I have the Asics Hyperspeed and Asics DS Racers.

The Hyperspeed are proper flats with no support and are super light. They get me up on my toes and my feet just feel fast and light in them. However after about 10 miles my feat are screaming and I cant go any further. I would guess that they are up to 30s faster for a 5km then a training shoe. How much of this is real gains and how much is psychological (they're red) I don't know.

The DS Racers are my favourite shoe. There still super light with a small amount of arch support. They don't have the snappy feel of the Hyperspeed, but I can ware them for anything up to marathon distance without any pain. Over a 5km I would guess that they are about 20s faster then training shoes. Again I dont know how much is really due to the shoe (As they are blue there not quite as fast as the hyperspeed, plus there name isn't as fast). I think they would make a perfect first racing flat as I would consider them an intermediate between my training shoes and a full on flat like the hyperspeed.

I don't train in my flats very often, just fast interval sessions and race prep runs. This is because the price you pay for them being super light is that they ware our super fast...

Gringo78

Brianderunner wrote: »

+1, I made that mistake once too, never to be repeated. Racing flats are for sub 2'30 marathoners imo.

Flats just take time to get used to - when I first got Asics DS Trainers 2 years ago I thought I was being very daring as I had been used to Kayanos. Then when I got DS racers I thought I was really pushing things putting them on for a 5k race (it felt like they had no support at all). It was a gradual move however over 12 months to just using them for short races to finally using them for all runs and now they feel as cushioned as the Kayanos felt...The DS racers are my everyday runners now, use them for long runs now no problem. By the way, I'm 5ft 10 & 75kg so would be considered overweight for a runner

RacoonQueen

Brianderunner wrote: »

+1, I made that mistake once too, never to be repeated. Racing flats are for sub 2'30 marathoners imo.

Why? What difference does what time you're capable of make if flats are helping you improve your times?

Brianderunner

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Why? What difference does what time you're capable of make if flats are helping you improve your times?

They're too harsh on your legs, increase injury risk etc. Huge difference between 2'10 and 3'30, time on your feet wise. I'd say 10 miles or a half at a stretch is the furthest a non elite should go in them. Of course some people will "get away with it", but thats what they're doing imo.

RacoonQueen

I've done 3 hour plus runs in them with no issues and they're no harsher on my legs than the training shoes were, I'm doing higher mileage now than I was when I was wearing those shoes too and still, no problems. People are too over cautious with their supportive shoes.

My feet hurt just thinking about training shoes. No biomechanical reason why people can't do all their runs or marathons in them*, the only negative I can see is that you lose the 'benefits' of the weight difference when you race if you train in lightweight shoes.

*unless you run like phoebe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSkXnyuYNJQ

Woddle

I'd agree with Brianderunner, kind of. I could run forever in my lunarglides (training shoe) but I reckon 10km would be the max for me in my brooks ST5s as my legs just start feeling fatigued.
I don't think it's quite a time on your feet issue but more of a how heavy you are issue.
It'll be interesting to see if I can shift 20 lbs or so how far could I go in the brooks racers then.

menoscemo

Brianderunner wrote: »

+1, I made that mistake once too, never to be repeated. Racing flats are for sub 2'30 marathoners imo.

This is just plain wrong. I had this conversation with you after Berlin and you agreed with me, now you change your tune
For some people flats/minimalist are a better training shoe and they risk less injury wearing them than if they used a cushioned or support shoe.

For others the complete opposite is true. It just depends on your running style/gait and not how fast you are.

Gringo78

menoscemo wrote: »

This is just plain wrong. I had this conversation with you after Berlin and you agreed with me, now you change your tune
For some people flats/minimalist are a better training shoe and they risk less injury wearing them than if they used a cushioned or support shoe.

For others the complete opposite is true. It just depends on your running style/gait and not how fast you are.

True....I have enjoyed my longest period of no injury since switching over completely to the lighter racers. They do actually wear out faster (I get probably only 400 miles out of pair) but that said, the lighter the runners, generally the cheaper the are.

I was in a shop recently and overheard the sales assistant telling a guy that Kayanos were the most expensive and if he could afford them, to go for them as they're the best and anything cheaper is just scrimping on the cushioning and not a good idea. Appalling advice.

RayCun

Don't some/a lot of people lose running form as they get tired? So the lightweight shoes are fine, until the point when they start running like Phoebe?

menoscemo

Gringo78 wrote: »

I was in a shop recently and overheard the sales assistant telling a guy that Kayanos were the most expensive and if he could afford them, to go for them as they're the best and anything cheaper is just scrimping on the cushioning and not a good idea. Appalling advice.

I got the same advice in Lifestyle when I traded in an old pair of shoes for an Adidas sale they had a few month ago.
The Sales guy practically insisted i took the most supportive shoe (Kayano Equivalent, not sure of the name). I told him I was a neutral runner and didn't need the support, he reluctantly showed me a pair of Supernova Glide (Neutral but very cushioned with a massive heel)I told him I was not used to such a massive heel, and asked to try on a pair of Adizeros (light racers). He looked at me like I had two heads and told me I couldn't run more than a few k in those. In the end the Adizero weren't in the sale anyways so I got a pair of the Supernova Glide.

I had a few short runs in them and find them very uncomfortable and have resigned them to the wardrobe. I am sure if I went for a long run in them I would get injured.

menoscemo

RayCun wrote: »

Don't some/a lot of people lose running form as they get tired? So the lightweight shoes are fine, until the point when they start running like Phoebe?

I used to think this must be true and hence would wear my lunarglides for a marathon and flats for shorter races, but after wearing my Kinvaras for two marathons (in one of which i blew up spectacularly and must have lost form) I had absolutely no niggles.

I will definitely be using the Kinvaras for Ultras next year.

Gringo78

RayCun wrote: »

Don't some/a lot of people lose running form as they get tired? So the lightweight shoes are fine, until the point when they start running like Phoebe?

I suppose the idea is to try to not lose running form too often i.e if you are going for an easy or a recovery run and start to lose form you are either running too far or too fast or both. If running intervals in your speedy racers (to try them out) then you can keep the intervals short e.g 400/800m so that you don't lose form (thats a good reason to do pyramid sessions or shorter intervals - by the time you get to the longer intervals you have a good idea of the pace you can complete the interval at without falling to bits)

Brianderunner

menoscemo wrote: »

This is just plain wrong. I had this conversation with you after Berlin and you agreed with me, now you change your tune
For some people flats/minimalist are a better training shoe and they risk less injury wearing them than if they used a cushioned or support shoe.

For others the complete opposite is true. It just depends on your running style/gait and not how fast you are.

Regardless of your style, your form deteriorates at the end of a marathon for us mortals (non elites) and the racing flats don't give enough support, pushing up the injury risk. My argument is for the marathon only, nothing else. I do agree with you on the lightweight shoes for training if they suit your style. If you look on letsrun the views are fairly mixed on the matter, as they are on here.

Most running shop assistants don't have a clue i agree, we could all do their job standing on our head.

TFBubendorfer

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Why? What difference does what time you're capable of make if flats are helping you improve your times?

Flats are for biomechanically sound runners. I expect just about every sub 2:30 runner would fall into this category, hence that rule-of-thumb I suppose.

However, slower but still biomechanically sound runners can wear flats just as well IMHO.

BeepBeep67

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Presumably you'd get a similar benefit from wearing spikes. I wore some at the weekend, to start breaking them in for an upcoming xc race, and found them so minimalist, that I felt it would have a positive impact on my form (even on grass). Would like to pick up some cheap Mushas, but I reckon I've a few too many pairs of running shoes at the moment. I fear I'm turning into a RacoonQueen.

Mushas in the clearance section in AK Bray <evil temptation genie>

BobMac104

menoscemo wrote: »

This is just plain wrong. I had this conversation with you after Berlin and you agreed with me, now you change your tune
For some people flats/minimalist are a better training shoe and they risk less injury wearing them than if they used a cushioned or support shoe.

For others the complete opposite is true. It just depends on your running style/gait and not how fast you are.

I agree 100%.

I am not by any strech and elite runner nor do i have any experience running a marathon ( 1st is dcm 2011 hopefully). I am only running regularly since april/may but all my training for dcm has been in vff's or flats and have had no issues (so far, touch wood etc etc...) So if a running novice like me can do 20 milers in flats i cant see why really good runners like those posting in this thread could do it without pain/issues.

Like Racoon queen said I couldnt even consider wearing more than a racing flat for any run.

RacoonQueen

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Flats are for biomechanically sound runners. I expect just about every sub 2:30 runner would fall into this category, hence that rule-of-thumb I suppose.

However, slower but still biomechanically sound runners can wear flats just as well IMHO.

Definitely. As I say though, I think many people are over cautious with this - maybe because it's so easy for me I don't understand why other people think they would have problems. I thought I'd never be able to wear flats full stop, never mind for every run. I don't suffer with my calves, which, is what peoples main concern tends to be. Left one is a bit tighter but that's only noticeable when I go for a sports massage, it never causes me any issues.

shels4ever

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Definitely. As I say though, I think many people are over cautious with this - maybe because it's so easy for me I don't understand why other people think they would have problems. I thought I'd never be able to wear flats full stop, never mind for every run. I don't suffer with my calves, which, is what peoples main concern tends to be. Left one is a bit tighter but that's only noticeable when I go for a sports massage, it never causes me any issues.

If I look at a pair of flats in a sports shop my calf goes into cramps, ..
But I did run in spikes for years with no problems so wouldnt run them out totally in the future

rainbow kirby

RacoonQueen wrote: »

As I say though, I think many people are over cautious with this - maybe because it's so easy for me I don't understand why other people think they would have problems.

I know that in my case it's not me being overly cautious... when I tried to move down to a less-supportive shoe I ended up with a crappy ITB injury after Barcelona. :eek:

I'd be fcuked if I ever tried to wear the kind of shoes you wear!

RacoonQueen

rainbow kirby wrote: »

I know that in my case it's not me being overly cautious... when I tried to move down to a less-supportive shoe I ended up with a crappy ITB injury after Barcelona. :eek:

I'd be fcuked if I ever tried to wear the kind of shoes you wear!

That's what I used to think. I was bricking myself every time I took the lunarglides out and then the fastwitch 3's, I was terrified to run more than 10k in the FT3's. Now I just don't hold back, for me it was probably doing the Chi Running course last year and watching the video of myself running with Catherina McKiernan waffling on about how wonderful I am for an hour or so ( have I mentioned that many times before? ). Watching a video of yourself just running, not on a treadmill like is a great tool. Don't think I'd have had the confidence to keep bringing down the support level if I hadn't seen the video.

G-Money

I can possibly see myself buying a pair of lightweight flats/racers eventually but not anytime soon.

Although for those who have bought them and who are overpronators, how did you find them? I wear Asics GT2150s/2160's all the time for training and any races I do. Not sure how I'd get on with racing flats. Can you get racing flats with support for overpronators?

I tried two alternative Adidas training shoes, the Salvation, and the Supernova Sequence 3 or 4, can't remember which. I found the former almost had too much inside support and nearly felt like I was walking on the edges of my feet, whereas the Supernova seemed to flatten like a pancake quite quickly just from walking.

As a result I didn't try running in either.

BeepBeep67

G-Money wrote: »

I can possibly see myself buying a pair of lightweight flats/racers eventually but not anytime soon.

Although for those who have bought them and who are overpronators, how did you find them? I wear Asics GT2150s/2160's all the time for training and any races I do. Not sure how I'd get on with racing flats. Can you get racing flats with support for overpronators?

I tried two alternative Adidas training shoes, the Salvation, and the Supernova Sequence 3 or 4, can't remember which. I found the former almost had too much inside support and nearly felt like I was walking on the edges of my feet, whereas the Supernova seemed to flatten like a pancake quite quickly just from walking.

As a result I didn't try running in either.

If you like Adidas, the Adizero Tempo is a good intermediate step, it's relatively light weight, doesn't have a big heel wedge like the other Adidas models and don't be put off by the Adizero branding it has some control features also. I love mine and do my LSR's in them. From there you can then consider something like the Mana, which takes you another step closer to flats.

G-Money

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

If you like Adidas, the Adizero Tempo is a good intermediate step, it's relatively light weight, doesn't have a big heel wedge like the other Adidas models and don't be put off by the Adizero branding it has some control features also. I love mine and do my LSR's in them. From there you can then consider something like the Mana, which takes you another step closer to flats.

Footwear wise I prefer Asics so far. The Adidas training shoes I've tried so far I haven't risked trying to run in yet. However I think Asics have a more limited number of models when it comes to racing shoes?

RacoonQueen

You could check out the asics 33 range

http://www.asicsamerica.com/33byasics/