Amateur band audited.

Red Sauce

Hey all,

I got a letter yesterday asking me to declare all money that I've made from 'performing in musical venues'. My bandmates have all gotten letters too.

Thing is, we've never made any money. Most of you on this forum will know how impossible it is to make any money as an original band. If we were in it for the money we'd play covers and go to pubs. We try to play showcase gigs where possible where no money changes hands whatsoever. The (very) odd time a venue might throw ya 30 quid for petrol or lob ya out a few free pints but even that's rare. If we run our own gig we'd maximum get 10-15 heads in which will only occasionally come close to covering the cost of running the show, never mind posters, food, petrol or sometimes accommodation. We obviously have no receipts for any of this, and can barely even remember ourselves. Bottom line is, this is a few lads with an (expensive) hobby, not a business.

Why bother? Because we love it. We enjoy packing up our gear on a weekend and tipping off around the country. Have a few pints, meet a few people, play a few tunes, have the craic and feck off home again. It's better than sitting around a crappy midlands town on a Saturday night. Simple as.

I know the country's up s*** creek at the minute but really is it even worth their while? We couldn't possibly owe more than 20-30 euro spread over out two and a half years! I can understand them cracking down on bands who actually make a living or a decent chunk of cash on the side but we’re talking pennies here. Now we're looking at maybe being fined for not declaring an income that doesn't exist!

I'm also currently on jobseekers (not by choice) which hopefully this whole thing won't completely screw up on me.

We're still waiting for IMRO and an accountant to get back to us but does anyone else have experience of this happening to them?

Oh, and any young bands reading this, sort out your finances. We never even thought about it before this but apparently it's important.

Sorry for the rant, I'm a nice person normally. :rolleyes:

Mongarra

If you have not made any profit from the band then you will have no liability to Income tax or levies. The only problem I see is that you do not have the paperwork to prove it.

Between you all you can surely compile a list of payments received from various venues. Individually you may be able to remember when you bought your equipment/gear and how much it cost as you can claim wear and tear on this at a rate of 12.5% per annum.

Mileage can be calculated to give an estimate of petrol expenses incurred and an element of wear and tear on whatever cars/vans you use will be allowed. You mention some other expenses in your own post and don't forget to claim light, heat and power for rehearsals in each others homes or hall or wherever. Items such as repairs, replacement (guitar strings/drumsticks and the like) are also deductible as an expense. Also, if you do not have a receipt for everything, a good estimate is usually acceptable.

Going to the accountant was a good move. He, no doubt, will advise you on correct procedures.

mg1

I hate ti say i told ye so but have a good read of the thread i started a few weeks ago.
By the way an accountand will sort it out in a jiffy and you should not really be in much bother!:)

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056395189

Red Sauce

Cheers for that lads. I have actually hung on to the recipts for most of my gear so maybe I'll try that. From now on I'm hanging on to everything. We're lucky that the accountant is a friend of one of the lads, otherwise we wouldn't be able to afford one. Hopefull we'll get this sorted soon as we're not gigging again until it's all cleared up.

Duke Leonal Felmet

Can you prove that you have been actively seeking work? That might be an issue.

Red Sauce

That hopefully won't come in to it. I've been on a FÁS work placement scheme for the past 8 months (not Jobsbridge, the one before that) doing a 9-5 and have stacks of emails sent out to possible employers that I can print off. Playing music is just a hobby I happen to have. I don't make any money from it, but as I've been audited I'm worried it'll screw up my dole (supposed undeclared income etc...). Also, if we have to register our band as a business in order to be tax compliant in the future (regardless of how little money we make) does that make me self employed and again does that screw up my dole? Maybe this is actually the wrong forum to be asking this.
If I could just get a proper job none of that would matter but ye all know the way the f***in country is...:mad:

the_syco

I'd wonder who is sending the letters?

Duke Leonal Felmet

the_syco wrote: »

I'd wonder who is sending the letters?

Is revenue attending gigs or something? Or are they able to track it if the band has an online presence? If it's the latter, it would make me question the sense in publically advertising shows online.

jus_tin4

also get receipts from venues sound engineers or any of that sorta stuff! Tax people are audits pubs/venues. thats how your getting caught. they arent picking on you cos they are just been c**** but that they have found you are getting money.

they are looking around shops ads or anything of that sort to see whos doing grinds lessons anything that they know where people are earning money on the black market

mg1

the_syco wrote: »

I'd wonder who is sending the letters?

In most of the cases that i have heard about from musicians, the pubs are being audited and the publican is handing over band names because he has to prove where the money was spent!

r.duke

in regards to being on jobseekers allowance, i know a few musicians very recently who were forced off jobseekers and made to declare themselves "self-employed" and moved onto a another scheme called "back to work" (which only runs for two years at a reduced pay), and like you are making no money from gigs etc. the government is in the process of cleaning house and its the little guys who will get the sharp end of the stick.(as usual)

Cork guitarist

The tax people are looking up the entertainment/dancing columns in newspapers, reading posters in pub windows, and of course getting names from publicans who are writing off the cost of their band against tax. If the publican doesn't cooperate, they get the heavy treatment. If we all say we're John Murphy, the contact number is got, and, if there isn't any, and the musician supposedly just drops in now and again, the tax investigating team can see what van the gear comes out of. Or else, how many of us have given our contact details at a gig, to someone who thinks we're great and wants us for some event or other? The alternative is doing just parties or weddings, but be on good terms with whoever is paying you. If you give the tax crowd the 2 fingers, they have the power to come after you, that's human nature.
It's impossible to be in the public eye and not get caught, so at least keep receipts for everything, gear, travel, phone, clothes, internet and website costs and more.

Red Sauce

Red Sauce wrote: »

......... We try to play showcase gigs where possible where no money changes hands whatsoever. .............

If you can prove that you're happy out so

Red Sauce

Cheers for the feedback lads,

I personally reckon that our name has popped up on some pub's tax returns where they gave us €50 (split 5 ways!) for petrol or something. I've heard that another band from my hometown were audited the same day as us. However they play covers and while I don't know their details I'd imagine they make a few bob fairly regularly.

Is there not a small amount you can earn on top of your jobseekers without having to declare it? Or if you say you were working for one day of the week don't you get the dole for the other four?

I'll be sure to let ye know how this pans out for other people's benefit. It's a right pain in the balls though...

Grolschevik

Red Sauce wrote: »

Cheers for the feedback lads,

I personally reckon that our name has popped up on some pub's tax returns where they gave us €50 (split 5 ways!) for petrol or something.

You mentioned IMRO earlier. Are you members? Could the Revenue have a list of those registered with them?

Red Sauce

Four of us are registered with IMRO and we presumed they had given the Revenue our details, but when we contacted them they said they'd never heard anything about it. We recently added a new member to the band who has only played three or four (unpaid) gigs with us. She got a letter out too despite not being IMRO registered. I suppose they just got our name and googled us.

Deco1983

Red Sauce wrote: »

She got a letter out too despite not being IMRO registered. I suppose they just got our name and googled us.

Hmmmm...how did the letter make its way to her address?

bayles

I just stumbled accross this thread and thought i would give my tupence worth.

My dad was one of the top guys in revenue and as i am a pro/semi pro musician as is most of my family he always tried his best to keep us on the straight and narrow as best as possible .

Revenue have crews of people working in there department who,s only job is to target musicians from all over the country and as far as getting addresses and relevant information , they are like the CIA and will leave no stone unturned to get there money

Normally how they do it is look through the adds in newspapers for bands adverts (one particular sunday paper is renowned for its adds) then they build up a "scrap book" of venues and dates that the act was playing that way there is no argument from the bands side , so what im saying is if they are already on your case then they have had there eye on you for a while and have a file on you .

It has been known for them to appear at gigs with demands for tax , One piece of advice i will give you is when revenue tell you , you owe us €xxxx amount of euro , its not down to them to prove you owe it its down to you to prove you dont and if you pay what they are asking then they will just come back at you next year with a higher demand . Unfortunatly for you it is unlikley this will be the end of it now that you are on there raydar they will be watching in the future .
If you were ever paid by cheque at a venue then there will be a paper trail from that venue leading back to you . When that venue gets audited your name will come up and the owner wont care about you as he just wants his books to balance , cash is king in this game although even that can cause its own problems.

I would suggest getting some proper advice at this stage in the proceedings and keep every reciept you get in the future. Best of luck

Regards

Deco1983

There you have it- the inside scoop from Bayles.

"Crews" of money hungry revenue officers hiding in the halflight of the Pint and The Workingmans club dressed in converse,skinny jeans and leather jackets

Thats how it is folks - Beware you might be next

Thanks Bayles...seriously..thank you

bayles

They should be fairly easily spotted , they have a tattoo just under there hair line .

Duke Leonal Felmet

bayles wrote: »

I just stumbled accross this thread and thought i would give my tupence worth.

My dad was one of the top guys in revenue and as i am a pro/semi pro musician as is most of my family he always tried his best to keep us on the straight and narrow as best as possible .

Revenue have crews of people working in there department who,s only job is to target musicians from all over the country and as far as getting addresses and relevant information , they are like the CIA and will leave no stone unturned to get there money

Normally how they do it is look through the adds in newspapers for bands adverts (one particular sunday paper is renowned for its adds) then they build up a "scrap book" of venues and dates that the act was playing that way there is no argument from the bands side , so what im saying is if they are already on your case then they have had there eye on you for a while and have a file on you .

It has been known for them to appear at gigs with demands for tax , One piece of advice i will give you is when revenue tell you , you owe us €xxxx amount of euro , its not down to them to prove you owe it its down to you to prove you dont and if you pay what they are asking then they will just come back at you next year with a higher demand . Unfortunatly for you it is unlikley this will be the end of it now that you are on there raydar they will be watching in the future .
If you were ever paid by cheque at a venue then there will be a paper trail from that venue leading back to you . When that venue gets audited your name will come up and the owner wont care about you as he just wants his books to balance , cash is king in this game although even that can cause its own problems.

I would suggest getting some proper advice at this stage in the proceedings and keep every reciept you get in the future. Best of luck

Regards

What if you don't get paid?

bayles

Prove it ,

Like i said , revenue will say you owe us . Its your job to prove that you dont . As far as revenue are concerned every musician is making money if they are gigging or they wouldnt be at it . They are not interested in the fact that you might be doing it for the love of playing music all they are interested in is the bottom line.

Denalihighway

Interesting thread.

on one hand it makes me sick - the thought of these f*cking pen-pushing suits stifling the arts by putting the fear of jaysus into struggling musicians.

on the other hand, if there are people creaming it and not declaring I guess its only right they should pay their share. i also have little sympathy to unproductive 'artists' (be they musicians or whatever) who sit around doing nothing and claiming the dole, writing the odd song or doing the odd singer-songwriters night to justify their laziness.

I guess we can only hope that due respect be given to the small guys who genuinely don't have a pot to p*ss in and that they not be dis-incentivised from making music/art

this of course extends to people in all areas of the arts and that's what worries me. there is clear evidence (savage cuts to grants etc) that there is a myopic approach to cost-saving at the moment. that's no surprise since our governments are in thrall to soul-less white collar issues rather than the things that actually add spice to life.

we can only hope the right approach is taken. can we justifiably be confident of this?...emmmm....

TheMutations

bayles wrote: »

I just stumbled accross this thread and thought i would give my tupence worth.

My dad was one of the top guys in revenue and as i am a pro/semi pro musician as is most of my family he always tried his best to keep us on the straight and narrow as best as possible .

Regards

Would you be able to tell us what type of advice he gave you that may be applicable to bands and musicians? For example which type of business structure would be suitable for an ambitious unsigned originals band that would gig once or twice a month, a mixture of unpaid and low paid gigs? Should they be sole traders, partners etc? The musicians in the band don't pay themselves, preferring to re-invest what money they do make into the band.

Personally I think auditing bands is a total waste of revenue resources as 99.5% of bands and musicians never come close to even covering their expenses, never mind coming close to be in a financial position to pay tax.

Deco1983

TheMutations wrote: »

Personally I think auditing bands is a total waste of revenue resources as 99.5% of bands and musicians never come close to even covering their expenses, never mind coming close to be in a financial position to pay tax.

exactly...that's why they don't

Only way a band would get contacted by revenue would be if you were a very busy and successful band(usually cover/corporate/wedding) or if someone alerted revenue to a band and they would have to follow up.

They simply do not have the resources and would not be interested in such small returns to "audit" the € unsuccessful bands that the 99.99% of the people on this forum are members of

TheMutations

Deco1983 wrote: »

exactly...that's why they don't


They simply do not have the resources and would not be interested in such small returns to "audit" the € unsuccessful bands that the 99.99% of the people on this forum are members of

The problem is that they do appear to be interested according to the OP. And according to bayles "Revenue have crews of people working in there department who,s only job is to target musicians from all over the country and as far as getting addresses and relevant information , they are like the CIA and will leave no stone unturned to get there money"

bayles

TheMutations wrote: »

Would you be able to tell us what type of advice he gave you that may be applicable to bands and musicians? For example which type of business structure would be suitable for an ambitious unsigned originals band that would gig once or twice a month, a mixture of unpaid and low paid gigs? Should they be sole traders, partners etc? The musicians in the band don't pay themselves, preferring to re-invest what money they do make into the band.

Personally I think auditing bands is a total waste of revenue resources as 99.5% of bands and musicians never come close to even covering their expenses, never mind coming close to be in a financial position to pay tax.

Unfortunatly mate he died 3 years ago but if he was still here now i would be able to give you a whole heap of advice .

It may sound daft but the general thing was to keep as low a profile as possible and thats really all you can do because if revenue get there claws into you they wont let go . Stay out of newspapers etc etc , TBH it is a real catch 22 situation you want people to come to your gigs and advertise the band but you dont want to aleart revenue that you exist and the way the country is today the screw is tightening on bands and artists in general i mean read the OP .

An idea he put to me one time was to set the band up as a LTD company and start declairing tax (an idea that went down like a lead balloon with the rest of the band i tell ya)
Reason being we were out 3 times a week in fairly big venues break for the border , howl at the moon , the quays etc etc . Then only declair x amount of gigs a year that way it would keep revenue happy , the books would balance and chances are we would not be questioned about cash gigs... (ie) we were just an "unbusy" band trying to pay our way . The only draw back with that is if you have a day job it can affect you TFA .

I am not a tax expert like he was so i am not going to start giving out tax advice and i dont want to deviate from the OP or get my self in trouble with the MODS .

What i will say is revenue will not come after you based on a couple of gigs they will wait untill they know you have gigged 10 - 15 - 20 times even more before they make there presence known , it doesnt matter if 10 of those giggs were done for free , as far as revenue are concerned you are still liable for them unless you can prove otherwise . If it is something you are concerned about get propper advice

bayles

By the way dont get confused with being audited and your band getting a tax bill for being musicians who are not declaring income . In order to be audited you need to be a registered business and the audit will be based on a set of company accounts and accountants will do that job not revenue , (revenue dont audit they just collect) getting a bill slapped on you from revenue for presumed turnover is a different matter . They will just come up with a "figure" that they reckon you owe based on how many gigs they have seen or how long they reckon you have been earning and expect you to pay , its down to you to prove you dont have to.

Shattered Dreamer

Are you guys sure you're not being scammed? The idea of the Revenue coming after a small fry originals band sounds fairly suspect to me...

Deco1983

Shattered Dreamer wrote: »

Are you guys sure you're not being scammed? The idea of the Revenue coming after a small fry originals band sounds fairly suspect to me...

Dead On - I've experience of working in Revenue and it simply does not happen. The OP is stirring and bayles and his Dad(RIP) are giving out entertaining, yet essentially made up information.

Shattered Dreamer

Deco1983 wrote: »

Dead On - I've experience of working in Revenue and it simply does not happen. The OP is stirring and bayles and his Dad(RIP) are giving out entertaining, yet essentially made up information.

I know something this dickish isn't beyond the Revenue but it sounds beyond suspicious. I've been in bands with studio session musicians, I know a bassist in particular who has worked fairly regularly at it for 10 years, does'nt hide this fact, played gigs advertised in national news papers, played most of the big venues in Dublin & is pretty well know within the industry here in Ireland & he's never been contacted by Revenue once.

Now if somebody in his situation isn't getting chased up, & some people in this thread claim Revenue are like the CIA, then the CIA aren't as good as they used to be clearly. Getting an accountant in this situation was a great idea but I would go to a solicitor too just be safe because this really sounds like a bull**** hoax.