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Amateur band audited.

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13

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    #62
    bayles
    Registered Users Posts: 258 ✭✭bayles


    Red sauce , ring revenue , ask them why you got the letter and how you came to their attention and that will fill in all the gaps in this thread .
    If its a genuine letter they will have answers for you.


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    #63
    Malice
    Registered Users Posts: 15,065 ✭✭✭✭Malice


    Deco1983: Please don't insult other members.


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    #64
    headmaster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 687 ✭✭✭headmaster


    For what its worth but i'd imagine this is genuine. Revenue are on to everything, their numbers are not gone down since the celtic tiger, so they have to pay their way. As for bands gigging for practically nothing, that's a joke. Any small pub is paying €100 + for a couple of hours to a 2 piece, or a one man band. I can assure you that a bill will have to be paid, but you're a good spoofer so maybe you can pull the wool over the revenues eyes. Yeah and pigs will fly. My advise to you is come clean, take your medicine because they will have you and clean you. Rightly so too. Sorry, i forgot to mention, but why don't you put an advert in the media, etc, stating that you are doing gigs for nothing, i can assure you that a busy time will await you if you do. Now, stop the sob stories and get real.


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    #65
    Red Sauce
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39 ✭Red Sauce


    thewintermute wrote: »
    I hate to interfere with the trolling and flaming, which is only mildly entertaining, but from what I've read there is nothing to say that the letter Red Sauce received has anything to do with him being in the band.I'd imagine it's a genuine letter from revenue, but possibly more to do with him being on unemployment benefit. If your friends that have also received letters have jobs, I may be wrong, but it's a thought, no?Bands do get audited, if you're playing and advertised it happens. Not often, but it does happen.

    Nope, the letter clearly states that it's as a result of performing in live music venues. The others have jobs or are students. That's my point. It's rare but it can happen. If it can happen to us it can happen to others.

    In regards ringing the revenue no, I haven't yet. The accountant told us to hold off until she has a chance to look into it. Like I said before she's a friend of one of the lads who is looking into it in her free time as a favour to us. We're lucky in this regard as we wouldn't be able to afford one otherwise.

    I just thought I'd bring this to other musician’s attention and maybe get some advice. I didn't realise it'd result in me being accused of being naive and having to defend my integrity!


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    #66
    Grolschevik
    Registered Users Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    headmaster wrote: »
    As for bands gigging for practically nothing, that's a joke.

    I've gigged for less than nothing when expenses are taken into account. In fact, I don't think I've ever made money from gigs.

    headmaster wrote: »
    Any small pub is paying €100 + for a couple of hours to a 2 piece, or a one man band.

    For covers, sure, but originals bands who gig occasionally and aren't at a certain level tend not to be paid at all...


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    #67
    Red Sauce
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39 ✭Red Sauce


    headmaster wrote: »
    For what its worth but i'd imagine this is genuine. Revenue are on to everything, their numbers are not gone down since the celtic tiger, so they have to pay their way. As for bands gigging for practically nothing, that's a joke. Any small pub is paying €100 + for a couple of hours to a 2 piece, or a one man band. I can assure you that a bill will have to be paid, but you're a good spoofer so maybe you can pull the wool over the revenues eyes. Yeah and pigs will fly. My advise to you is come clean, take your medicine because they will have you and clean you. Rightly so too. Sorry, i forgot to mention, but why don't you put an advert in the media, etc, stating that you are doing gigs for nothing, i can assure you that a busy time will await you if you do. Now, stop the sob stories and get real.

    Read the original post. You clearly have no experience of how the original music scene in this country works.


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    #68
    Malice
    Registered Users Posts: 15,065 ✭✭✭✭Malice


    *Sigh* This will be the last warning. If users can't make their point without resorting to name-calling then bans will be handed out.


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    #69
    Duke Leonal Felmet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭Duke Leonal Felmet


    So, are band members technically self-employed? Is the band a business?

    Let's start with basics here.


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    #70
    Deco1983
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 240 ✭✭Deco1983


    Red Sauce - can you post a copy of the letter on here with the personal details covered out.

    Would be a great insight into this revenue process and would really help other bands know what to look out for in the future - since that seems to be your mo right?


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    #71
    Grolschevik
    Registered Users Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »
    So, are band members technically self-employed? Is the band a business?

    Let's start with basics here.

    I think it might qualify as a partnership, but I suppose it depends on the band...


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    #72
    Red Sauce
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39 ✭Red Sauce


    Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »
    So, are band members technically self-employed? Is the band a business?

    Let's start with basics here.


    We played at three festivals over the summer. All three of them were headlined by big Irish acts. All three were heavily advertised and had big crowds and I'd reckon did all right on the money front. We didn't get a penny for any of them. We were more than happy to head over to play for the craic. We got in for free and got to hang around and chat with some cool bands we admire, play in front of a crowd :eek: and see some great performances. Two of the festivals I probably would have gone to anyway even if I wasn't playing! Does that sound like a business? I'd defiantly say no. It's a hobby. Where do you draw the line?


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    #73
    Red Sauce
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39 ✭Red Sauce


    Deco1983 wrote: »
    Red Sauce - can you post a copy of the letter on here with the personal details covered out.

    Would be a great insight into this revenue process and would really help other bands know what to look out for in the future - since that seems to be your mo right?

    I have no problem doing that whatsoever. I'll post it tomorrow.


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    #74
    Duke Leonal Felmet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭Duke Leonal Felmet


    Red Sauce wrote: »
    Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »
    So, are band members technically self-employed? Is the band a business?

    Let's start with basics here.


    We played at three festivals over the summer. All three of them were headlined by big Irish acts. All three were heavily advertised and had big crowds and I'd reckon did all right on the money front. We didn't get a penny for any of them. We were more than happy to head over to play for the craic. We got in for free and got to hang around and chat with some cool bands we admire, play in front of a crowd :eek: and see some great performances. Two of the festivals I probably would have gone to anyway even if I wasn't playing! Does that sound like a business? I'd defiantly say no. It's a hobby. Where do you draw the line?

    Allow me to rephrase, to make things easier.

    In the eyes of the state, are band members technically self-employed? Is the band a business?


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    #75
    Grolschevik
    Registered Users Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    Red Sauce wrote: »
    We got in for free

    Jaysus, now you're into benefit-in-kind territory! :D


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    #76
    Red Sauce
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39 ✭Red Sauce


    Grolschevik wrote: »
    Jaysus, now you're into benefit-in-kind territory! :D

    Oh man, don't say that!:eek:


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    #77
    Duke Leonal Felmet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭Duke Leonal Felmet


    Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »
    Red Sauce wrote: »
    Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »
    So, are band members technically self-employed? Is the band a business?

    Let's start with basics here.


    We played at three festivals over the summer. All three of them were headlined by big Irish acts. All three were heavily advertised and had big crowds and I'd reckon did all right on the money front. We didn't get a penny for any of them. We were more than happy to head over to play for the craic. We got in for free and got to hang around and chat with some cool bands we admire, play in front of a crowd :eek: and see some great performances. Two of the festivals I probably would have gone to anyway even if I wasn't playing! Does that sound like a business? I'd defiantly say no. It's a hobby. Where do you draw the line?

    Allow me to rephrase, to make things easier.

    In the eyes of the state, are band members technically self-employed? Is the band a business?

    The reason I think this question is important is because if we can get a reliable definition of how revenue views a band, then we can see what might be expected in terms of tax, what can be written off, what can be avoided, etc.

    It is certainly better than slinging mud at each other or talking about what ought to be the case, right?

    So, what is a band, according to revenue?


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    #78
    Red Sauce
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39 ✭Red Sauce


    Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »
    Allow me to rephrase, to make things easier.

    In the eyes of the state, are band members technically self-employed? Is the band a business?

    To be perfectly honest I have no idea. Anyone else got any ideas?


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    #79
    Duke Leonal Felmet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭Duke Leonal Felmet


    Red Sauce wrote: »
    Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »
    Allow me to rephrase, to make things easier.

    In the eyes of the state, are band members technically self-employed? Is the band a business?

    To be perfectly honest I have no idea. Anyone else got any ideas?

    Neither do I. Next time I am free at a computer, I will research it.


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    #80
    Red Sauce
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39 ✭Red Sauce


    Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »
    Neither do I. Next time I am free at a computer, I will research it.

    Yea, if I get a chance I'll look into it this evening.


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    #81
    Grolschevik
    Registered Users Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »
    The reason I think this question is important is because if we can get a reliable definition of how revenue views a band, then we can see what might be expected in terms of tax, what can be written off, what can be avoided, etc.

    It is certainly better than slinging mud at each other or talking about what ought to be the case, right?

    So, what is a band, according to revenue?

    I think it depends on the structure of the band, but if you're earning anything, I believe you should be registered.
    • Busker? Self-employed. Files a return in October taking account of all income/expenses, even on top of PAYE income.
    • Same for pub one-man-band.
    • Duo? A partnership. Each registers as self-employed.
    • Band? Partnership. Each registers as self-employed.
    • Elton John (or wedding band!) where the main man hires/fires musos? He's an employer, they're employees, PAYE and PRSI implications.
    There was a brief thread about it here:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=70962383


    The most relevant post for our purposes is this:

    So your decided to start a band. What is your structure:
    Are you a sole trader who employes the other band members a kind of manager. If so you need to register as a sole trader Form TR1 and as an employer and operate PAYE/PRSI on payments to employees.

    Or is your band a partnership with each partner making their own return. You need to consider the structure as some band members may have PAYE jobs and not have any standard rate cut off available for this income.


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    #82
    Red Sauce
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39 ✭Red Sauce


    Red Sauce wrote: »
    Oh man, don't say that!:eek:



    "Benefits-in-kind, such as private use of a company car, free or subsidised accommodation and preferential loans, received from an employer, by an employee whose total remuneration (including benefits-in-kind) is €1,905 or more in a tax year, are taxable (subject to certain exceptions)".

    http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/bik.html


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    #83
    Grolschevik
    Registered Users Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    Red Sauce wrote: »
    "Benefits-in-kind, such as private use of a company car, free or subsidised accommodation and preferential loans, received from an employer, by an employee whose total remuneration (including benefits-in-kind) is €1,905 or more in a tax year, are taxable (subject to certain exceptions)".

    http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/bik.html

    I was joking!


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    #84
    Red Sauce
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39 ✭Red Sauce


    Grolschevik wrote: »
    I was joking!

    So was I!:D


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    #85
    Red Sauce
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39 ✭Red Sauce


    Grolschevik wrote: »
    I think it depends on the structure of the band, but if you're earning anything, I believe you should be registered.
    • Busker? Self-employed. Files a return in October taking account of all income/expenses, even on top of PAYE income.
    • Same for pub one-man-band.
    • Duo? A partnership. Each registers as self-employed.
    • Band? Partnership. Each registers as self-employed.
    • Elton John (or wedding band!) where the main man hires/fires musos? He's an employer, they're employees, PAYE and PRSI implications.
    There was a brief thread about it here:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=70962383


    The most relevant post for our purposes is this:

    So your decided to start a band. What is your structure:
    Are you a sole trader who employes the other band members a kind of manager. If so you need to register as a sole trader Form TR1 and as an employer and operate PAYE/PRSI on payments to employees.

    Or is your band a partnership with each partner making their own return. You need to consider the structure as some band members may have PAYE jobs and not have any standard rate cut off available for this income.


    Right, great post, I get that, but that's if you're making money...

    This is the bit that I'm really unsure of.

    Say we drive to a gig in Galway and spend €60 on petrol. The guy running the gig chucks us €50 for petrol. (BTW this rarely happens). We split that between four to mostly cover the cost of the petrol but we're still all down €2.50. How do you declare that?

    Similarly, we stick on a gig in a local music venue. It costs say €100 to hire the place/pay the wound guy. We charge €5 and get 20 people in. The money from the door pays for the night. We don't loose any money but we certainly don't make any. (More often then not in this scenario we'll be €10/20 down and will dip into our own pockets to make up the difference). What happens then?

    You haven't earned anything...


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    #86
    Grolschevik
    Registered Users Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    Red Sauce wrote: »
    Right, great post, I get that, but that's if you're making money...

    This is the bit that I'm really unsure of.

    Say we drive to a gig in Galway and spend €60 on petrol. The guy running the gig chucks us €50 for petrol. (BTW this rarely happens). We split that between four to mostly cover the cost of the petrol but we're still all down €2.50. How do you declare that?

    Similarly, we stick on a gig in a local music venue. It costs say €100 to hire the place/pay the wound guy. We charge €5 and get 20 people in. The money from the door pays for the night. We don't loose any money but we certainly don't make any. (More often then not in this scenario we'll be €10/20 down and will dip into our own pockets to make up the difference). What happens then?

    Technically, I think you need to declare all income received, even if in your tax return you are making a loss (no tax would be liable in this situation, but I think the Revenue like to have it on record).

    The fact is, though, nobody who is not making money bothers to do this, whether they should or not. So what they think they'll get from targetting you, I dunno. Maybe the accounts/returns for the festivals you played brought you to their attention.


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    #87
    Duke Leonal Felmet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭Duke Leonal Felmet


    I'm sure travel to work can be written off, no?


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    #88
    Grolschevik
    Registered Users Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »
    I'm sure travel to work can be written off, no?

    I'm self-employed, and I know I can't write it off...


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    #89
    bayles
    Registered Users Posts: 258 ✭✭bayles


    Im open to correction on this but if red sauce isint registered to be paying tax as a musician yet can he claim anything ?


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    #90
    Grolschevik
    Registered Users Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    I think we're in hypotheticals rather than specifics now.


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    #91
    maddogcollins
    Registered Users Posts: 998 ✭✭✭maddogcollins


    Red Sauce wrote: »
    Right, great post, I get that, but that's if you're making money...

    This is the bit that I'm really unsure of.

    Say we drive to a gig in Galway and spend €60 on petrol. The guy running the gig chucks us €50 for petrol. (BTW this rarely happens). We split that between four to mostly cover the cost of the petrol but we're still all down €2.50. How do you declare that?

    Similarly, we stick on a gig in a local music venue. It costs say €100 to hire the place/pay the wound guy. We charge €5 and get 20 people in. The money from the door pays for the night. We don't loose any money but we certainly don't make any. (More often then not in this scenario we'll be €10/20 down and will dip into our own pockets to make up the difference). What happens then?

    You haven't earned anything...

    You have to declare all income. Even if this is a loss.

    Income €100

    Expenses €120

    Loss €20

    Accumulate these for all gigs you do and at the end of the year split if equally between the band. You will all have a loss. If you make profit the next year, the loss can be carried forward and offset against the profit.


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