Amateur band audited.

raindog.promo

IS there a case to be made for this thread becoming stickied?
A lot of useful information in here that few people seem to know about.

Duke Leonal Felmet

raindog.promo wrote: »

IS there a case to be made for this thread becoming stickied?
A lot of useful information in here that few people seem to know about.

The mods are considering restructuring the entire forum, I'd imagine this thread would be a useful thread in the new forum.

Deco1983

raindog.promo wrote: »

IS there a case to be made for this thread becoming stickied?
A lot of useful information in here that few people seem to know

I agree that it would be good to have something but I don't think that this is the thread

There is very little of substance in this thread I'm afraid with regards to helping musicians get clarity about what is expected of them when it comes to revenue

Mr. Incognito

This thread has been brought to my attention in the tax forum.

Firstly.

bayles wrote: »

I just stumbled accross this thread and thought i would give my tupence worth.

My dad was one of the top guys in revenue and as i am a pro/semi pro musician as is most of my family he always tried his best to keep us on the straight and narrow as best as possible .

Revenue have crews of people working in there department who,s only job is to target musicians from all over the country and as far as getting addresses and relevant information , they are like the CIA and will leave no stone unturned to get there money

Normally how they do it is look through the adds in newspapers for bands adverts (one particular sunday paper is renowned for its adds) then they build up a "scrap book" of venues and dates that the act was playing that way there is no argument from the bands side , so what im saying is if they are already on your case then they have had there eye on you for a while and have a file on you .

It has been known for them to appear at gigs with demands for tax , One piece of advice i will give you is when revenue tell you , you owe us €xxxx amount of euro , its not down to them to prove you owe it its down to you to prove you dont and if you pay what they are asking then they will just come back at you next year with a higher demand . Unfortunatly for you it is unlikley this will be the end of it now that you are on there raydar they will be watching in the future .
If you were ever paid by cheque at a venue then there will be a paper trail from that venue leading back to you . When that venue gets audited your name will come up and the owner wont care about you as he just wants his books to balance , cash is king in this game although even that can cause its own problems.

I would suggest getting some proper advice at this stage in the proceedings and keep every reciept you get in the future. Best of luck

Regards

^^^^ The above is , pardon my french, utter misinformed sensationalist bollox. I'm Sorry if your father was involved in Revenue and doubly sorry if he passed away (I lost my own father in 2008 so condolances) but this is not sound or acurate advice. People give far too much credit to Revenue. They have large investigative powers and abilities to audit premises and interview persons where required but all of these will be done in the course of notified audits where you are entitled to have your professional adviser present. Also the Irish system of taxation is a self assessment system where you are responsible for your own returns- Revenue are not cruising nightclubs taking names- it is up to you to be tax compliant unless there is a large amount of tax evasion going on like the offshore stuff in the 90s that they will actively chase but even then it is a matter or collating the information and auditing you in the proper manner.

As regards the secret "Bands" department. It doesn't exist. Firstly, up until very recently all income from artists was FULLY exempt under the artists exemption. This has now been capped at €250,000 with all income over this threshold being adjusted. Most people will remember U2 moving their management company to Holland around this time. I'm not going into the technicalities of it but that is a general synopsis. I would think that a "semi-professional / professional (Isn't that an oxymoron btw?)
musician would be aware of this.

Now, secondly as to whether the letter is genuine or not, there is a very easy way to find out. Enter your PPS Number in this:

http://www.revenue.ie/en/contact/index.html

Ring the relevant district and then ask if they have forwarded any correspondence. It will be on the computer system. There is an anonymous reporting system in place for Revenue and they follow strict guidelines when responding to same.

My gut feeling is this is some sort of scam. Three laptops were stolen from Revenue in the past year that contained PPS Numbers and it may be related to this but that is just conjecture. If there are a number of Band members that have reveived notices it seems a co-incidence that either you are all from the same area that the PPS numbers related to or someone has made an anonymous tip off and some Clerical Officer is oblidged to follow it up. A quick call to say that your income is exempt should get rid of that in a jiff.

If having rang Revenue and they confirm that they did not forward the correspondence forward it to the Guards immediately to avoid your fellow musicians being scammed.

Now- just to clear up some misconceptions that have arisen.

Musicians are artists and are covered by the artists exemption up to income of €250K and are not oblidged to file a return if they are under this threshold.

Musicians are technically self employed over this threshold.

Where you make a loss from a trade or employment and are self employed and oblidged to file a return no interest or penalties will apply where there is no tax liability to be have such interest and penalities applied upon. Therefore- as a matter of fact it doesn't matter if the return is late or not filed at all. Why waste your time AND revenues.

If anyone has any specific queries visit the tax forum- it's what it is here for.

guitarwrist

Mr. Incognito: 'Musicians are artists and are covered by the artists exemption up to income of €250K and are not oblidged to file a return if they are under this threshold.'

Is it not the cases that artistic exemption only covers original works and therefore cover bands cannot claim this exemption? I think this is worth mentioning.

guitarwrist

If any of ye have the time, please read this, its a factual piece by the Josephine Feehily, head of Revenue on how the shadow economy is being tackled: Straight from the horses mouth:P
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/ACC/2011/09/22/00006.asp

A few relevant snippits:

'In 2010 we placed great emphasis on tackling shadow economy risks by a combination of risk analysis, intelligence collation, assurance checks and outdoor operations including audits. Activities ranged from projects targeting risky sectors such as hospitality, building sites and white collar professionals to “streetscapes” where we visit every business in a particular street or small town.'

'This year, we selected ten specific sectors on which to focus where the capacity to operate on a cash basis exists, and already on the business side we have made more than 4,700 cold calls or site visits, and almost 3,200 assurance checks.'
This means they DO walk in on bands / pubs / hotels etc.!

On the plus side a former revenue guy once told me that after an initial assessment, if it amount assessed costs more to collect than the amount itself, it is not worth persueing and the cases will be closed.:) i.e. If it costs one weeks wages of a revenue officials time, say 800 euros, to collect 300 euros, it just won't happen:)

Duke Leonal Felmet

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Stuff...

The question thats comes immediately to mind is: what is you are not performing original works? Are you classed as an artist?

Mr. Incognito

guitarwrist wrote: »

If any of ye have the time, please read this, its a factual piece by the Josephine Feehily, head of Revenue on how the shadow economy is being tackled: Straight from the horses mouth:P
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/ACC/2011/09/22/00006.asp

A few relevant snippits:

'In 2010 we placed great emphasis on tackling shadow economy risks by a combination of risk analysis, intelligence collation, assurance checks and outdoor operations including audits. Activities ranged from projects targeting risky sectors such as hospitality, building sites and white collar professionals to “streetscapes” where we visit every business in a particular street or small town.'

'This year, we selected ten specific sectors on which to focus where the capacity to operate on a cash basis exists, and already on the business side we have made more than 4,700 cold calls or site visits, and almost 3,200 assurance checks.'
This means they DO walk in on bands / pubs / hotels etc.!

On the plus side a former revenue guy once told me that after an initial assessment, if it amount assessed costs more to collect than the amount itself, it is not worth persueing and the cases will be closed.:) i.e. If it costs one weeks wages of a revenue officials time, say 800 euros, to collect 300 euros, it just won't happen:)

Oh dear, people are doing it again.

Conjecture is a difficult thing to get around. From your link:

'This year, we selected ten specific sectors on which to focus where the capacity to operate on a cash basis exists, and already on the business side we have made more than 4,700 cold calls or site visits, and almost 3,200 assurance checks.'

The bit you left out.

Activities ranged from projects targeting risky sectors such as hospitality, building sites and white collar professionals to “streetscapes” where we visit every business in a particular street or small town.

This emphasis is continuing throughout 2011. This year, we selected ten specific sectors on which to focus where the capacity to operate on a cash basis exists, and already on the business side we have made more than 4,700 cold calls or site visits, and almost 3,200 assurance checks. We also completed more than 1,200 audits in the construction sector with a combined yield of €37 million. In the wholesale, retail, restaurant and pub trades combined we have closed 1,400 audits with a yield of €50 million
.......................................We are doing a great deal of work on the ground, such as blitzes in markets. When we go to the streetscapes to which I referred and visit businesses, we check to determine whether the cigarettes they are selling are counterfeit

Does not equal

This means they DO walk in on bands / pubs / hotels etc.!

Revenue do NOT just walk in and flash a badge and ask to see your books. They will notify you that they are on the way and audit you in accordance with their guidelines. This ensures that you are prepared for an audit and have the requistite information to hand when they arive.

Now I'm sure in cases of extreme evasion they might go a bit further and they do have to power to seize records and computers etc but it is not done as par for the course. You are putting words / interpretations that don't exist in what Ms Feelihy actually said.

Revenue have a policy of selecting certain cash business and auditing that sector- they have in the last few years targeted taxis, hairdressers, pubs, shops, street traders etc

Bands are not on the radar for the simple reason that very few bands make money and secondly they are transient and not at all accessible for the purpose of audit. Perhaps Revenue have decided to target Bands but I am unaware of it and as you say above it would not be cost effective imo but hey- anything is possible.

Also it seems that the artists exemption was reduced to €40K in the 2011 Budget.

Further info here

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/reliefs/artists-exemption.html

Grolschevik

guitarwrist wrote: »

Is it not the cases that artistic exemption only covers original works and therefore cover bands cannot claim this exemption? I think this is worth mentioning.

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

The question thats comes immediately to mind is: what is you are not performing original works? Are you classed as an artist?

I think I remember a debate about this a few years back, concerning the issue of whether the improv of jazz standards could be considered "creative" rather than covers. I think the musicians lost the debate.

From the link that Mr Incognito kindly provided:

"Section 195 Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 empowers the Revenue Commissioners to make a determination that certain artistic works are original and creative works generally recognised as having cultural or artistic merit.

The first €40,000 per annum of profits or gains earned by writers, composers, visual artists and sculptors from the sale of their work is exempt from income tax in Ireland in certain circumstances.

The €40,000 limit was introduced in the tax year 2011.

The scheme provides that the Revenue Commissioners can make determinations in respect of artistic works in the following categories only:

a book or other writing
a play
a musical composition
a painting or other like picture
a sculpture".

On the face of it, that would appear to rule out cover/tribute acts, although the creativity issue is certainly an arguable point...

Mark D

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Oh dear, people are doing it again.

Conjecture is a difficult thing to get around. From your link:



The bit you left out.



Does not equal



Revenue do NOT just walk in and flash a badge and ask to see your books. They will notify you that they are on the way and audit you in accordance with their guidelines. This ensures that you are prepared for an audit and have the requistite information to hand when they arive.

Now I'm sure in cases of extreme evasion they might go a bit further and they do have to power to seize records and computers etc but it is not done as par for the course. You are putting words / interpretations that don't exist in what Ms Feelihy actually said.

Revenue have a policy of selecting certain cash business and auditing that sector- they have in the last few years targeted taxis, hairdressers, pubs, shops, street traders etc

Bands are not on the radar for the simple reason that very few bands make money and secondly they are transient and not at all accessible for the purpose of audit. Perhaps Revenue have decided to target Bands but I am unaware of it and as you say above it would not be cost effective imo but hey- anything is possible.

Also it seems that the artists exemption was reduced to €40K in the 2011 Budget.

Further info here

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/reliefs/artists-exemption.html

Mr Incognito, I tip my hat to you..this guy knows his s**t!

Thanks

galwaybabe

Mr Incognito :

Musicians are artists and are covered by the artists exemption up to income of €250K and are not oblidged to file a return if they are under this threshold.

Does that mean I can stop sweating about doing a return? Do you have to apply for artist exemption or do you just automatically have it when you are a full time musician. I play original stuff

Mr. Incognito

galwaybabe wrote: »

Mr Incognito :

Does that mean I can stop sweating about doing a return? Yes Do you have to apply for artist exemption or do you just automatically have it when you are a full time musician. auto I play original stuff

Any problems give me a shout

galwaybabe

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Any problems give me a shout

Whew.....what a relief! Thanks for the info.

Dord

Does the exemption include revenue generated from live performances?

Duke Leonal Felmet

Dord wrote: »

Does the exemption include revenue generated from live performances?

If it is a live performance of original work, then it would appear so. They always word these things in a vague manner, though...

Shattered Dreamer

Did nobody read that link I posted from the IMRO website? It explains how musicians are taxed & entitlement to the artists exemption

Duke Leonal Felmet

Shattered Dreamer wrote: »

Did nobody read that link I posted from the IMRO website? It explains how musicians are taxed & entitlement to the artists exemption

It would appear not. :-)

Grolschevik

Shattered Dreamer wrote: »

Did nobody read that link I posted from the IMRO website? It explains how musicians are taxed & entitlement to the artists exemption

It doesn't answer the specific questions about non-original works and/or income from performing these, though.

(Unless I missed a bit on that ugly-ass IMRO page...)

shane9689

reading this forum was the biggest waste of 10 minutes....

Malice

shane9689 wrote: »

reading this forum was the biggest waste of 10 minutes....

If you have a problem with the forum how about you be constructive and tell us, the moderators, how we can improve things?

Duke Leonal Felmet

Malice wrote: »

shane9689 wrote: »

reading this forum was the biggest waste of 10 minutes....

If you have a problem with the forum how about you be constructive and tell us, the moderators, how we can improve things?

By forum, I think she meant thread.

Malice

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

By forum, I think she meant thread.

I think she might be a he .

guitarwrist

Thanks for the clarification Mr Incognito. About the bit I left out as you put it i.e.

'Activities ranged from projects targeting risky sectors such as hospitality, building sites and white collar professionals to “streetscapes” where we visit every business in a particular street or small town.'

Pardon my stupidity but does hospitality industry not include hotels and pubs who in turn hire bands / musicians? From speaking to other musicians specific towns have been targeted with all pubs and hotels been asked for contact numbers etc. for the bands they hire. This ties in with the streetscape concept above. Nenagh for one where revenue have a sizeable presence. Otherwise great reply to my posting btw, you are obviously well versed in tax matters.

guitarwrist

Thanks for the clarification Mr Incognito. About the bit I left out as you put it i.e.

'Activities ranged from projects targeting risky sectors such as hospitality, building sites and white collar professionals to “streetscapes” where we visit every business in a particular street or small town.'

Pardon my stupidity but does hospitality industry not include hotels and pubs who in turn hire bands / musicians? From speaking to other musicians specific towns have been targeted with all pubs and hotels been asked for contact numbers etc. for the bands they hire. This ties in with the streetscape concept above. Nenagh for one where revenue have a sizeable presence. Otherwise great reply to my posting btw, you are obviously well versed in tax matters.

Shattered Dreamer

I think the key bit of information to be taken from all this is Revenue don't care about bands making under €250k lol

Red Sauce

Right, thought I'd let ye all know what happened.

I was on to the revenue last week. Was waiting for the accountant to get back to us before we did anything, and despite a lot of good advice this thread wasn't really offering any solid answers.

I rang them up and explained that we don't make any money from playing music. Yer one was a bit sceptical and quizzed me a bit asking why we bother and if we play for charities or whatever. When I explained that we're an original band and no one will pay us to play she seemed surprised that we'd been contacted and lost interest in the conversation pretty quickly.

She said I had to send in a letter stating that I don't make money from playing music and that it's just a hobby.

The rest of my band then rang them up (as we were audited as individuals) and had similar exchanges with revenue staff.

However we're still in the dark as to why this happened to us and why we were targeted from the thousands of small original bands in the country. We have played (non paying) original showcases in venues that normally have cover bands in them so maybe they presumed we were a covers band or something?

The whole thing is a bit fecking weird but thankfully it's resolved now. We are however going to get all of our paperwork in order and keep receipts for everything from now on.

Hope that puts other people in the same position at ease.

Ally Dick

I wonder did someone rat you out Red Sauce ?

Shattered Dreamer

I think the attitude of the person from Revenue on the phone tells the story:rolleyes: But at the same time is worth keeping a record of everything you make

bluevoice

I understand (from talking to an accountant and a solicitor pretty recently) the Artist Exemption to be something very different. It applies mostly to 'things' in my understanding; Sales from a written play, a book, a painting, a CD, but NOT things like income from live performance, live theatre, busking etc (intangible things).

Here is a link from Citizens Information

Wish it weren't true

twowheelsonly

My tuppence worth from a slightly different angle..

I have a company that operates the gates (Ticket Scanning etc..) at various gigs and events around the country.
Regarding the 'cold calling' I would guess that the Revenue turned up at almost every big festival and gig this year and have done for most over the last couple of years. Also, it tends to be pretty much the same bunch of people all of the time.
Fortunately we have quite a good relationship with them but they willl still ask us how many are working for us on the day, a list of names and PPS numbers etc. I know that they do the same with the Security and Stewarding firms that are in attendance and so I would presume that they also throw an eye over anything else that they might see happening. For example I know for a fact that they regularly have a chat with the Hawkers that operate at these festivals and in around The O2 etc.
I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised to find that they were also tackling the musicians, both at festivals and at local gigs. We all know of busy bands/musicians doing covers that are potentially making €600+ a week so why wouldn't they be investigated.