Occupy Galway Group (mod note added)

Me again!

Looks like the banks are taking the message on board from the occupy groups and the government. They gave two fingers to the government today on the interest rate reduction and the Irish taxpayers, maybe the goverment should hold their next cabinet meeting in a tent in eyre square if they want to get their attention. Who's running the ****ing country, the banks as usual! Who are they listening to absolutely no one !!!!!!!!

Danakin

antoobrien wrote: »

Talk about deluded.

All these figures are availabe from the department of finance website, I suggest you take a good long look.

Since 2008 the we've put €15.67 billion into the banks. €10.65 billion of that was done this year.

Deficit in billions
2008 - 12.71
2009 - 24.64
2010 - 14.37
2011 - 22.17 (to 31/10)
That's a total of €73.89 billion in deficits over the past 4 budget years - of which the banks are responsible for the €15.67 billion I've already counted.

The IMF came in October/November 2010 - at 30/09/2010 the deficit was €13.37 billion.

Before the IMF came in we had piled a deficit of €50.72 billion - of which less than €5 billion is due to the banks.

Based on the fact that in less than 3 years we put an amount that nearly equals the entire tax take from 2007 (€47.25 billion - a record) onto the debt in budget deficits, do you really expect me to believe that they were not coming in anyways?

Okay, take the deficit as €73.89 billion. This is equivalent to approximately $99 billion. Irish GDP in 2010 was approximately $203 billion, making the debt total you have suggested equal to circa 48% of GDP.

This is a medium-level debt to GDP ratio. Certainly not at IMF bailout levels.

It was not the amount that we were to spend/have spent on the banks that was the issue. It was that the Irish state left itself open to contingent liabilities of up to hundreds of billions.

This led to a breakdown in our ability to borrow from the bond markets which, like any business would, looked at the state's liabilities and came to believe the state was likely to be unable to pay its debts because of the scale of its liabilities.

The actions of the "pillar banks" today underline the arrogance and irresponsibility of these institutions that have been bailed out with our money.

If you need evidence that the Occupy movement is focusing on the right targets then it could be found today, fairly close to home.

padraig71

Me again! wrote: »

Looks like the banks are taking the message on board from the occupy groups and the government. They gave two fingers to the government today on the interest rate reduction and the Irish taxpayers, maybe the goverment should hold their next cabinet meeting in a tent in eyre square if they want to get their attention. Who's running the ****ing country, the banks as usual! Who are they listening to absolutely no one !!!!!!!!

Maybe if the government and the so-called bank regulator had as much spirit as the protesters they would introduce some legislation to rein in the banksters - as if we were actually living in a sovereign country! Your point that the banks are running the country only underlines the necessity of protest. The bailouts have failed, the contagion has spread, the EU has been hoist on its own petard and we'll probably be kicked out of the eurozone by Christmas. So overall I guess the great austerity plan worked a treat. Ever feel like you've been had?

antoobrien

Danakin wrote: »

Okay, take the deficit as €73.89 billion.

That one comment shows you up as not really paying attention to what I wrote (and listening to some brain dead twits in the media to boot).

Deficit is a current item - it only lasts for the current spending period (in our case the calendar year - it used to be April 4th - April 3rd or something like that).

The deficit (for this year) is currently 22 billion. Not 74 billion - that's the total that we have overspent for the past 4 years. This accumulated deficit has been added to the debt pile that already existed.

Danakin wrote: »

making the debt total you have suggested equal to circa 48% of GDP.

This is a medium-level debt to GDP ratio. Certainly not at IMF bailout levels.

The debt at the end of last year was approx €144 billion - this won't include the current years figures, so we've put about 1/3 of that total on in the last 3 years.

The debt to GDP (last year it was 99%) ratio isn't the problem. When Argentina went under 1 years ago they had a 50% ratio.

Danakin wrote: »

It was not the amount that we were to spend/have spent on the banks that was the issue. It was that the Irish state left itself open to contingent liabilities of up to hundreds of billions.

That figure is now a fraction of what it once was (largely due to the reaction of investors jumping ship). It now stands at €125 billion - an amount that will be called in if we do something stupid like not pay out on a bond or if we go bust (2 things the ECB & IMF seem desperate to avoid us doing unilaterally).

The guarantee expires at the end of December and (up until recently) it appeared that it may not be renewed.

Danakin wrote: »

If you need evidence that the Occupy movement is focusing on the right targets then it could be found today, fairly close to home.

They're not. The right targets are:
the amount of money being p**sed away by the Croke Park Agreement,
the amount of money being p**sed the Dept of Social Welfare (I wonder how many of those people would be squatting illegally in the square without my subsidizing them through my wages)
the disgraceful mess that is the Dept of Health & HSE.

If you want to see evidence of how badly wrong they are ask them how, despite the massive increases in education budgets (to teachers pay I might add), the numeracy & literacy rates of our children are falling not rising?

Let them go support St Francis's home - then I'd have some sympathy for them.

antoobrien

Predalien wrote: »

The Anglo bail-out in total will cost us €35b. We've paid nearly €11b to banks this year, next year the figure will be what? €20b? That simply isn't sustainable.

Especially if we don't have the funding from the EU/IMF to do it (it's being financed over 10 years and will actually cost closer to €47 billion by the end of things at current rates).

Fortunately (currently) we do not have to pay for all this money immediately. We have 10 years to pay off the (legally generated I might add) debts. That is sustainable.

Want to make the situation so unsustainable we'll never get back into the debt markets - burn some bondholders and find out.

If you don't believe me, think about this - if you give somebody €50 and you don't get it back, are you going to give it to them again on their word?

cheesemaker

Robbo

cheesemaker wrote: »

A nice collection of the Brokers facepalming. Easily one of the most clichéd photographic tropes of recent times.

Pure Sound

I'm usually a man for the shytalk but this thread now just reads bla bla bla

When I was in eyre square none of the protesters I was talking to claimed to have a full solution, they were just angry about the injustices and financial inequalities in the world today, there are clear financial injustices in the world and the majority of people just accept it, the occupy galway protesters don't want to accept it and people on here have a problem with them, I don't get it, what do the anti protesters have to gain from protecting or standing up for the rich people who had a big role to play in our nations financial problems?

antoobrien

We Need Community wrote: »

what do the anti protesters have to gain from protecting or standing up for the rich people who had a big role to play in our nations financial problems?

I resent that I'm being painted as a protector of the rich.

I'm against the massive overspend we have in public services which are p**s poor - e.g. why are we paying teachers far more than the EU average when literacy and numeracy rates are falling?

Pure Sound

antoobrien wrote: »

I resent that I'm being painted as a protector of the rich.

I'm against the massive overspend we have in public services which are p**s poor - e.g. why are we paying teachers far more than the EU average when literacy and numeracy rates are falling?

I agree some overspends are ridiculous but wages were set when we claimed to be the richest country in the world, with regards to literacy I'd imagine this has something to do with it

The public sector are the scapegoat as far as I'm concerned, very few had a problem with the wages in 2006/2007

FlashD

We Need Community wrote: »

what do the anti protesters have to gain

.....15 minutes of their lives stuck in traffic in Clarinbridge

eire.man

for the mods, please dont throw this in amongst the mammoth thread about the occupation as it will inevitably be lost in amongst the many pages of forward and backward comments.

I am hereby asking any business offering wireless broadband internet services to please provide us with a way of offering a video stream to the public and our sister occupations worldwide.

Furthermore if you have any resources we could use to make the occupation during winter that bit easier on us, a generator to provide some power for a laptop, heating etc. Any donation large/small would be treated with the utmost respect and returned the way it was received. We would like to get rid of the pallets that are currently marking out our boundary and maybe erect a stronger/more appealing looking protection against the elements and late night revellers. We could always do with more blankets etc. It's getting very fcuking cold out there lately.

We are trying to build this with the support of you the public and without your support we will most likely just fade into memory and we can all sit back and watch the country fall further down the black-hole of financial terrorism! I don't think anybody realistically wants things to keep getting progressively worse and if we'e all honest with ourselves can you really see our 'leaders' in the Dail doing anything radical that will change things anytime soon. They've already consistently went back on everything they told us they'd do when they got into power, that's an undeniable fact unfortunately! These people are way out of their league and totally disconnected from the reality we live in each and everyday.

As I said up on site today, this is bigger than any one person and shocking as it may seem, most certainly bigger than Xmas. I for one have absolutely no money to be spending on anyone, including myself this Xmas and it's not for the want of trying to get a job either.

I met a lady who used to be best friends with my Mum (passed away in '99) and I couldn't believe when she asked me what I was doing with the crowd of wasters in the Square that should be all out working. I told her very quickly that there was only one reason why none of us were working and even more shockingly she asked why! Cos there's no fcuking jobs now are there! Have people become so disconnected that they're in complete denial? Did it somehow pass over people that we have been reduced to cruel and bitter people to those who are trying to make a change, however small (and strange in some peoples eyes) to begin with.

Hope this is received in better spirit than the other occupy thread

skelliser

Hey Eire.man

can you explain to me and others what your protesting about?
what do you aim to achieve?
you want the IMF out but who will replace them and pay for the public services we need.
The IMF have been made out to be the boogey men in all this but if you have been following events you can clearly so that its been our so called "partners" in europe who are screwing us, the ECB and Sarkozy especially.

All i see and hear from the occupy protest is nothing i didnt already know myself.
I want to hear some realistic solutions and to date i havent heard anything near that from these protests.

eire.man

skelliser wrote: »

Hey Eire.man

can you explain to me and others what your protesting about?
what do you aim to achieve?
you want the IMF out but who will replace them and pay for the public services we need.
The IMF have been made out to be the boogey men in all this but if you have been following events you can clearly so that its been our so called "partners" in europe who are screwing us, the ECB and Sarkozy especially.

All i see and hear from the occupy protest is nothing i didnt already know myself.
I want to hear some realistic solutions and to date i havent heard anything near that from these protests.

I can't speak for everyone but I personally want to see the 1% looking out for us and not protecting the wealth they've amassed by crippling us with cheap credit until they had such a grip they could take our houses, businesses etc from us, we still owe for them and they are once again gaining more and more wealth and property etc, get my drift at all no?

ultain

from the perspective of the euro zone – would be a common bond to cover all sovereign debt to be followed by the establishment of a small fiscal union; furthermore, banks should be taken out of the hands of national governments and put under the wings of the European Financial Stability Facility. That would clearly solve the problem.

or


Ireland should revoke the full guarantee of the banking system, and convert senior and subordinate bondholders into equity holders.

I know that this would create second-level problems, in pension funds, in other banks, but it would be less costly, and more equitable, to deal with those specific problems on a case by case basis, than to dump the entire cost on the taxpayer.

The Government should then assess its own solvency position on the basis of an estimate of nominal growth of no more than 1 per cent per year for the rest of the decade. That may well be too pessimistic an assumption, but at this juncture it would be more prudent to err on the side of caution than optimism. Given the scale of the financial crisis, and its direct impact on growth, and everything we know from the history of financial crises, the case for a cautious forecast is overwhelming.

Without the load of the banking sector, such an analysis may well conclude that the Irish State is solvent. The result would depend to a very large extent on the success and extent of any bail-in programme, and the ability to contain any fall-out from such action.

If the analysis concludes that Ireland is insolvent, the Government should waste no time, and restructure the debt. Massive pressure from the EU will be brought on Ireland not to do so. But the right answer to insolvency is default – not liquidity support. Let the German government pay for the German banks, and for the recapitalisation of the European Central Bank, which may need to be refinanced under such a scenario as well.

A default would cause havoc, no doubt, and would cut Ireland off from the capital markets for a while. wouldnt hurt for to long... With a more sustainable level of debt, and the benefit of a real devaluation, Ireland should be able to pull through this. Once the market recognises that solvency is assured, I reckon international investors would once again be willing to lend. Even Argentina was able to gain funding from investors a few years after its default.

Occupy camper

ultain

skelliser wrote: »

Hey Eire.man

can you explain to me and others what your protesting about?
what do you aim to achieve?
you want the IMF out but who will replace them and pay for the public services we need.
The IMF have been made out to be the boogey men in all this but if you have been following events you can clearly so that its been our so called "partners" in europe who are screwing us, the ECB and Sarkozy especially.

All i see and hear from the occupy protest is nothing i didnt already know myself.
I want to hear some realistic solutions and to date i havent heard anything near that from these protests.

Come join the camp...your input/ideas would be welcome, or is it just you prefer to look on & do nothing except moan about the sh1t thats going down...ah no wait, your a trooper....you just get on with it!:rolleyes:

Shakti

there is a four bedroom house for sale in galway nothing fancy just its on threadneedle road its listed for €700,000, obviously they can charge what they like and will so good luck to them my point is even if they manage to sort out this mess with ten years of misery etc etc. its just going to start all over again no matter what line they try and fob us off with.

FlashD

Shakti wrote: »

my point is even if they manage to sort out this mess with ten years of misery etc etc. its just going to start all over again

Of course its going to start all over again, life is all about balance, call it karma if you will, for every 10 years of good times there has to be 10 years of bad.

......... and we will all be older and wiser to know when to get in on that gravy train and when to make our exit leaving the suckers to drown in their own greed as has happened time and time again over history.

Regards

Head The Wall

You don't have answers so, why would he go down and join when you won't answer basic sensible questions that people ask. It's a bit ironic to call him a moaner when your own protest is a big moan as well

To me it looks like you don't represent the 99% at all, maybe 1% of it.

ben.schlomo

eire.man wrote: »

for the mods, please dont throw this in amongst the mammoth thread about the occupation as it will inevitably be lost in amongst the many pages of forward and backward comments.

I am hereby asking any business offering wireless broadband internet services to please provide us with a way of offering a video stream to the public and our sister occupations worldwide.

Furthermore if you have any resources we could use to make the occupation during winter that bit easier on us, a generator to provide some power for a laptop, heating etc. Any donation large/small would be treated with the utmost respect and returned the way it was received. We would like to get rid of the pallets that are currently marking out our boundary and maybe erect a stronger/more appealing looking protection against the elements and late night revellers. We could always do with more blankets etc. It's getting very fcuking cold out there lately.

We are trying to build this with the support of you the public and without your support we will most likely just fade into memory and we can all sit back and watch the country fall further down the black-hole of financial terrorism! I don't think anybody realistically wants things to keep getting progressively worse and if we'e all honest with ourselves can you really see our 'leaders' in the Dail doing anything radical that will change things anytime soon. They've already consistently went back on everything they told us they'd do when they got into power, that's an undeniable fact unfortunately! These people are way out of their league and totally disconnected from the reality we live in each and everyday.

As I said up on site today, this is bigger than any one person and shocking as it may seem, most certainly bigger than Xmas. I for one have absolutely no money to be spending on anyone, including myself this Xmas and it's not for the want of trying to get a job either.

I met a lady who used to be best friends with my Mum (passed away in '99) and I couldn't believe when she asked me what I was doing with the crowd of wasters in the Square that should be all out working. I told her very quickly that there was only one reason why none of us were working and even more shockingly she asked why! Cos there's no fcuking jobs now are there! Have people become so disconnected that they're in complete denial? Did it somehow pass over people that we have been reduced to cruel and bitter people to those who are trying to make a change, however small (and strange in some peoples eyes) to begin with.

Hope this is received in better spirit than the other occupy thread

There are lots of jobs available in town, waiter/waitress, customer service representative, driver to name but a few which are advertised in this weeks Galway Advertiser. If you got off your high horse in the square you might see them. Drives me mad when people say there are no jobs, there are, you just have to be willing to work. That would also help your 'no money' issue too. You should hop over to the Advertiser office today and then you will be well on your way back into the mainstream and out of your camp.

galwayrush

You want business help? I thought that was a principle you were protesting against?

padraig71

Fair play to the protesters, they are doing us proud and I have the greatest respect for them. Many of the comments about the protest in this forum reveal a depressing level of ignorance. So many people have swallowed the big lie that 'There Is No Alternative'.

Why should people expect easy answers to difficult problems? There are no easy answers, but the important thing is for citizens to stop assuming that those in charge know what's best for them - they don't have any solutions either, whether in Dublin or the rest of Europe, that is obvious to anyone who follows the news! - and start questioning and discussing with one another. Only thus can Europe's citizens counteract the market-dominated narrative that is being imposed on us by the financial elite.

Wake up, people! Our democracy is being grievously undermined and you mock those who protest?

Exhibit A: The Greeks were about to be given a referendum, and then what happened? Suddenly an ex-ECB vice-president is their prime minister.

'The appointment of Papademos, who has never been elected to any public office but is considered one of Europe's foremost experts in macroeconomics, was met with relief.

Politicians, pundits, economists, business and industry leaders all expressed the belief that, liberated from the constraints of "political cost", Papademos was the ideal person to navigate the country away from the shores of economic disaster.' (from today's Guardian)

'Political cost' translates as 'democratic accountability'.

Exhibit B: In Italy, the new government is likely to be led by an ex-European Commissioner:

'Voting for the first time in the upper house will be Mario Monti, the former European commissioner who has emerged as favourite to replace the prime minister, Silvio Berlusconi.

Paving the way for Monti's appointment, President Giorgio Napolitano made him a life senator on Wednesday in a surprise move that raised his already high profile and instantly made him a legislator.' (op.cit.)

Is this the future you want? Where instead of electing our governments, we have them appointed for us out of the ranks of EU bankers and technocrats? I for one would rather live in a democracy.

Miri5

Well said Galway Rush!!

biko

Merged with the main thread.
Not because of you eire.man but because of other posters asking about the movement rather than offering assistance.
Hope you get a stream set up. Try local pubs etc, maybe you can get access to their broadband using a repeater?

joeKel73

There are jobs out there.

If you have so much free time because you're out of work, then spend it up-skilling and/or working for free to build up experience to make you more employable. At the same time be checking and applying for work on a daily basis.

There should be some jobs going at the upcoming Christmas market, I know a few people who got jobs last year at it. So long as it doesn't get held back by any obstructions in Eyre Square...

antoobrien

Maybe the occupy movement should start reading things like this - what their brethren are saying and doing. It appears the blog was written by an occupy wall st activist. I'm not going to post it all because it's long and rambling.

A Chill Descends On Occupy Wall Street; "The Leaders of the allegedly Leaderless Movement"

On Sunday, October 23, a meeting was held at 60 Wall Street. Six leaders discussed what to do with the half-million dollars that had been donated to their organization, since, in their estimation, the organization was incapable of making sound financial decisions. The proposed solution was not to spend the money educating their co-workers or stimulating more active participation by improving the organization’s structures and tactics. Instead, those present discussed how they could commandeer the $500,000 for their new, more exclusive organization. No, this was not the meeting of any traditional influence on Wall Street. These were six of the leaders of Occupy Wall Street (OWS).

At the teach-in on Sunday the 23rd, one of the leaders’ main gripes—rightfully so—was that the NYC-GA was inefficient and dominated by society’s vocal minorities, particularly middle-class white men. The underlying cause is not eliminated by the Spokes Council, but is in fact exacerbated by it. The major flaw of the General Assembly is the need for a 90% majority to pass proposals. This “modified consensus” ensures the continuation of the dominant culture through the passage of only the most conservative measures. In the Spokes Council, proposals can be blocked by 11% of the members of 11% of the Working Groups, meaning that a minority of 1.2% can stymie the will of 98.8% majority.

Daniel, a tall, red-bearded, white twenty-something—one of the six leaders of the teach-in—said that the NYC-GA needed to be completely defunded because those with “no stake” in the Occupy Wall Street movement shouldn’t have a say in how the money was spent. When I asked him whether everybody in the 99% had a stake in the movement, he said that only those occupying or working in Zuccotti Park did. I pointed out that since the General Assembly took place in Zuccotti Park, everybody who participated was an occupier. He responded with a long rant about how Zuccotti Park is filled with “tourists,” “free-loaders” and “crackheads” and suggested a solution that the even NYPD has not yet attempted: Daniel said that he’d like to take a fire-hose and clear out the entire encampment, adding hopefully that only the “real” activists would come back.

antoobrien

eire.man wrote: »

I met a lady who used to be best friends with my Mum (passed away in '99) and I couldn't believe when she asked me what I was doing with the crowd of wasters in the Square that should be all out working. I told her very quickly that there was only one reason why none of us were working and even more shockingly she asked why! Cos there's no fcuking jobs now are there! Have people become so disconnected that they're in complete denial?

There are 3 pages of jobs in the situations vacant page on the advertiser.

It would appear that the lady you were talking to is not delusional and you are the one that has become disconnected.

I'm sure bioware are still hiring - all you have to do to be a call center monkey is be able to read & speak english, and use a computer without having to ask someone why the internet is broken when the monitor is off.

N.B, I spent over a year working in tech support call centers - turn it off and back on is a valid response.

FlashD

^^^^^ Ah c'mon now, sure we're Irish, we can't be working those kind of jobs, that's beneath us. :rolleyes:

Of course there's plenty of ESL jobs out in China and all those far flung places too if anyone can be bothered to join us emigrants abroad.

Get proactive, better than sitting in a tent doing nothing.

Regards.

skelliser

ultain wrote: »

Come join the camp...your input/ideas would be welcome, or is it just you prefer to look on & do nothing except moan about the sh1t thats going down...ah no wait, your a trooper....you just get on with it!:rolleyes:

sorry but if you had read the thread you would have seen that i proposed that instead of sitting in tents in eyre square ye live up to your name and occupy NAMA ghost estates.

And also i distinctly remember the likes of Frank Fahey telling the "moaners" as you call them, that NAMA was the only game in town.

If all you can offer my post is an insult then that speaks volumes about your protest. If your reply to simple questions is so then i cant see how you will get any support from the wider community.

Also we are currently locked out of the capital markets, hence why the IMF are here!

Why are ye following a bunch of americans when ye could be highlighting the hyprocrisy of NAMA. If anything NAMA's very existence represents everything you hate about the so called 1%:
bailouts for the richest
interference with the price of houses
huge salaries
"bonuses" for failed developers
cosy relationships between politicians and speculators

Its like someone is dangling the holy grail in front of your eyes but ye dont have the ability to see it!

Occupying a ghost estate, tidying it up, finishing it off as much as possible and then using it as a home for yourselves or others struggling with rent or mortgage or whatever would be an interesting protest.

It would force attention from the developer, the banks, NAMA etc.