Occupy Galway Group (mod note added)

hippygran

death1234567 wrote: »

Jesus your really on the breadline there. Maybe if you upgrade your iPhone to a iPad you won't have any issues or are the 99% allowed to have iPads? maybe they are just for the elite 1% and us poor folk have to settle for basic aul iPhones, with a single core chip. Oh the humanity...

:rolleyes: I personally have a fairly new smartphone that I got for my birthday...does that mean that I shouldn't be concerned about the welfare of my fellow man or the state of the country I live in?

eire.man

hippygran wrote: »

death1234567 wrote: »

Jesus your really on the breadline there. Maybe if you upgrade your iPhone to a iPad you won't have any issues or are the 99% allowed to have iPads? maybe they are just for the elite 1% and us poor folk have to settle for basic aul iPhones, with a single core chip. Oh the humanity...

:rolleyes: I personally have a fairly new smartphone that I got for my birthday...does that mean that I shouldn't be concerned about the welfare of my fellow man or the state of the country I live in?

yes hippygran, now you're getting it, you filthy rich so and so ya!!

hippygran

eire.man wrote: »

yes hippygran, now you're getting it, you filthy rich so and so ya!!

I'll be sure to bring some champers and caviar to camp with me tomorrow.

eire.man

hippygran wrote: »

eire.man wrote: »

yes hippygran, now you're getting it, you filthy rich so and so ya!!

I'll be sure to bring some champers and caviar to camp with me tomorrow.

how ye travelling in til the Xmas market leaves? you can hardly land the copter on top of one of the stalls surely!!

hippygran

eire.man wrote: »

how ye travelling in til the Xmas market leaves? you can hardly land the copter on top of one of the stalls surely!!

<sigh> I guess I will have to have the chauffeur drive me and rough it on the roads with everyone else. Look forward to seeing you and your lovely lady tomorrow.

death1234567

eire.man wrote: »

I got the phone free when I signed up to a bill a few years back so don't dare think I payed out a wedge for a phone so I shouldn't be protesting against the corrupt 0.01%!!

Can you not see the irony of owning a €500 mobile phone manufactured for probably less that 10% of that by the world's largest corporation while your out protesting against how the elite 1% (or is it 0.01% now?) control the world*?

*If that's what the protest is actually about. I, like the protesters themselves, have little understanding about the purpose or end goal of these pointless "occupy" groups. Don't let not having a clue what your actually doing stop you though. Fight the machine!

biko

Do discuss the politics of the occupy movement (particularly in Galway) and whether it's even a good idea - but any attempts at non adult civil discussion will get you banned.
If you try to personalise this discussion it will get you banned.
Insulting other members will get you banned.
Straying off topic will get you banned.
Stupid jokes will get you banned.
Calling the occupy members names (crusties, hippies, losers) or trying to belittle them will get you banned.

MadYaker

muppetkiller wrote: »

You're a movement of opinion (an opinion I agree with in some cases) but ultimately as none of your "Leaders" are in government or Industry then you'll have no impact on changing anything. If anything The Occupy movement should become a Political party and try and change things from within...other than sitting in a tent and do nothing but moan.

This is it exactly. The movement in its current form can't and won't achieve anything. You can demand change all you want but at the end of the day the powers that be have nothing to lose by letting this movement continue as it is entirely uneffective and has no leverage over government or anyone else to bring about change.

If you really want to change this country and you have as much support for the community as you are claiming then all the different groups from Ireland need to come together and form a political party and start fundraising and campaigning for the next general election. Although you may disagree Irealnd is more democratic than most democracies and positions in government are more easily achievable here than in any other country I know of. Our taoiseach started out as a teacher in Mayo.

That is the only way you will achieve anything.

death1234567

MadYaker wrote: »

If you really want to change this country and you have as much support for the community as you are claiming then all the different groups from Ireland need to come together and form a political party and start fundraising and campaigning for the next general election.

That is the only way you will achieve anything.

Well said. Setup a "Reform" political party and run for election, then if you get the support in an election you can legimately say that you have a mandate from the people for your ideas/proposals/policies etc. Sitting in a tent in Eyre square will get you about as far as Richardsons off licence (and back).

Shakti

MadYaker wrote: »

This is it exactly. The movement in its current form can't and won't achieve anything. You can demand change all you want but at the end of the day the powers that be have nothing to lose by letting this movement continue as it is entirely uneffective and has no leverage over government or anyone else to bring about change.

If you really want to change this country and you have as much support for the community as you are claiming then all the different groups from Ireland need to come together and form a political party and start fundraising and campaigning for the next general election. Although you may disagree Irealnd is more democratic than most democracies and positions in government are more easily achievable here than in any other country I know of. Our taoiseach started out as a teacher in Mayo.

That is the only way you will achieve anything.

I disagree and political leaders/parties have proven ineffective and impotent at implementing change with the financial speculators/banks/system/civil service etc. as has been demonstrated here in this country time and again. Notably quite recently E.Kenny tried and failed repeatedly to get the banks to pass on an interest rate cut from the ECB to the consumer the only one to finally begrudgingly acquiesce to his(the ECB) requests has been AIB which as you are no doubt aware the state is the majority shareholder. Whereas a demonstration of thousands of elderly people again relatively recently who were about to have their medical cards withdrawn saw the policy reversed in the face of their outrage solidarity and demonstration.

MadYaker

Shakti wrote: »

I disagree and political leaders/parties have proven ineffective and impotent at implementing change with the financial speculators/banks/system/civil service etc. as has been demonstrated here in this country time and again. Notably quite recently E.Kenny tried and failed repeatedly to get the banks to pass on an interest rate cut from the ECB to the consumer the only one to finally begrudgingly acquiesce to his(the ECB) requests has been AIB which as you are no doubt aware the state is the majority shareholder.

What exactly do you disagree with??? This isn't about the current government and their actions/abilities. What I suggested is that the occupy movement set up their own political party and attempt to bring about change by political means rather than long term protest which wont achieve anything. Are you trying to suggest that as soon as anyone enters the Dail they lose the ability to be a competent public servant?

Shakti wrote: »

Whereas a demonstration of thousands of elderly people again relatively recently who were about to have their medical cards withdrawn saw the policy reversed in the face of their outrage solidarity and demonstration.

Their protest got far more media attention than this occupy movement and at the end of the day thats what matters. Its true that protest was successful but what they were asking for was a minor policy change. As far as I can determine the occupy group wants fundamental and widespread change to our political and social landscape. That will never be achieved by small scale peaceful protest, or even large scale peaceful protest.

For the record I seriously doubt that anyone from the Irish part of this movement will ever get anywhere near Leinster house (unless they camp outside it) and in reality that is the only way, apart from revolution, that the changes they seek can be achieved.

When was the last time a small scale occupation/idealistic protest receiving virtually no mainstream media coverage changed a country?

squonk

Shakti wrote: »

I disagree and political leaders/parties have proven ineffective and impotent at implementing change with the financial speculators/banks/system/civil service etc. as has been demonstrated here in this country time and again. Notably quite recently E.Kenny tried and failed repeatedly to get the banks to pass on an interest rate cut from the ECB to the consumer the only one to finally begrudgingly acquiesce to his(the ECB) requests has been AIB which as you are no doubt aware the state is the majority shareholder.

How do the Occupy movement propose to get the decreases passed on?
At least Enda & Co. tried. Admittedly they need to be stronger with the banks but I don't see how some people in tents in Eyre Square or Dame St. would have gotten even AIB to pass on the decrease.

Whereas a demonstration of thousands of elderly people again relatively recently who were about to have their medical cards withdrawn saw the policy reversed in the face of their outrage solidarity and demonstration.

They were quite vocal and, while it was a peaceful protest, they raised hell. It was also a short, sharp campaign with a clear goal. It was pretty much the case that all the government had to do was roll back on the medical card issue, 1 issue, and the senior citizens went away. Heck, I don't even know what would appease the Occupy movement if I was leader and wanted them to go away. As is, they're prepared to wait indefinitely so, as a leader, I'd be prepared to let them wait and get on with day to day business.

One other aspect of the senior citizens protest is that a lot of them were supporters of the 3 main parties, i.e. FF, FG & Labour. En mass they would have represented a sizeable representation and that gave them some clout. I don't want to generalise but I would take it as true that a majority of the occupy movement would not be supporters of right-wing or centerist parties. It may also be true that some might decide to not vote at all. Given this hypothesis, I would assume then that a few hundred 'occupy' protestors would not be seen as a threat to the votes of the major parties. In that case, what's happening with these movements here barely registers with the political parties or the government. Like it or not, politicians generally care about getting elected next time round. That's why, as was said earlier, forming a political movement would be far more effective.

I don't see the point in camping out in Eyre Square indefinitely with no guarantee of attaining your goals and when people going about their daily lives can't even grasp what those goals are beyond broad concepts. There is potential for a political vacuum come the next election as people may be fed up with the necessary austerity offered up by the current government, unwilling to go back to FF and unsure of the competence of SF & the Socialists. That's where the opportunity for change lies and it could be achieved by forming a 'Reform Party'. If this isn't done then really, it just characterises the Occupy movement in Ireland as a bunch of disparate individuals banding together around vague notions, protesting at what is but yet failing to identify and drive for what could be.

Shakti

squonk wrote: »

How do the Occupy movement propose to get the decreases passed on?

Is that their aim? I don't speak for them so you'll have to ask them yourself.

At least Enda & Co. tried.

Not good enough by a really long chalk, I tried going to the gym three times a week I failed I left nobody cried. 'Enda & Co.' try and fail and people lose there homes, prolong and add misery and hardship, so saying 'at least they tried' is simply not good enough. Failure to pay your mortgage results in you losing your home whats the penalty for failing the Irish People?.

Admittedly they need to be stronger with the banks

The banks are telling government what to do not the other way round, this has to change and I suspect thats what the 'OG' and other 'Occupy' groups are protesting/campaigning about at least that is my understanding but again I do not speak for them

but I don't see how some people in tents in Eyre Square or Dame St. would have gotten even AIB to pass on the decrease.

Perhaps, but I suspect markedly more than you or I will posting about it on the Internet.

They were quite vocal and, while it was a peaceful protest, they raised hell. It was also a short, sharp campaign with a clear goal. It was pretty much the case that all the government had to do was roll back on the medical card issue, 1 issue, and the senior citizens went away

Heck, I don't even know what would appease the Occupy movement if I was leader and wanted them to go away. As is, they're prepared to wait indefinitely so, as a leader, I'd be prepared to let them wait and get on with day to day business.

One other aspect of the senior citizens protest is that a lot of them were supporters of the 3 main parties, i.e. FF, FG & Labour. En mass they would have represented a sizeable representation and that gave them some clout. I don't want to generalise but I would take it as true that a majority of the occupy movement would not be supporters of right-wing or centerist parties. It may also be true that some might decide to not vote at all. Given this hypothesis, I would assume then that a few hundred 'occupy' protestors would not be seen as a threat to the votes of the major parties. In that case, what's happening with these movements here barely registers with the political parties or the government. Like it or not, politicians generally care about getting elected next time round. That's why, as was said earlier, forming a political movement would be far more effective.

I don't see the point in camping out in Eyre Square indefinitely with no guarantee of attaining your goals and when people going about their daily lives can't even grasp what those goals are beyond broad concepts. There is potential for a political vacuum come the next election as people may be fed up with the necessary austerity offered up by the current government, unwilling to go back to FF and unsure of the competence of SF & the Socialists. That's where the opportunity for change lies and it could be achieved by forming a 'Reform Party'. If this isn't done then really, it just characterises the Occupy movement in Ireland as a bunch of disparate individuals banding together around vague notions, protesting at what is but yet failing to identify and drive for what could be.

Banks are unelected and they are running this country/europe and as we have recently seen bankers have now been installed in both Greece and Italy as unelected heads of state, how long before the bundesbank et al. install similar here. If you want some financial advise you should buy some shares in 'Millets' or 'River Deep Mountain High'.

Storm 10

Well I am working hard to look after my family and pay my bills, yet I see these loungers in Eyre Square doing nothing all day and we the taxpayers are paying for them to arse about. The square is a shambles where they are, time to move on.

Shakti

MadYaker wrote: »

What exactly do you disagree with??

Your entire post and just about everything else that you have posted on this thread that I have read.

ben.schlomo

Shakti wrote: »

Is that their aim? I don't speak for them so you'll have to ask them yourself.



Not good enough by a really long chalk, I tried going to the gym three times a week I failed I left nobody cried. 'Enda & Co.' try and fail and people lose there homes, prolong and add misery and hardship, so saying 'at least they tried' is simply not good enough. Failure to pay your mortgage results in you losing your home whats the penalty for failing the Irish People?.



The banks are telling government what to do not the other way round, this has to change and I suspect thats what the 'OG' and other 'Occupy' groups are protesting/campaigning about at least that is my understanding but again I do not speak for them



Perhaps, but I suspect markedly more than you or I will posting about it on the Internet.



Banks are unelected and they are running this country/europe and as we have recently seen bankers have now been installed in both Greece and Italy as unelected heads of state, how long before the bundesbank et al. install similar here. If you want some financial advise you should buy some shares in 'Millets' or 'River Deep Mountain High'.

Both are economists actually and i for one would feel a lot better about an economist running an economy in meltdown rather than a person or persons with no basic knowledge of qualification in this area.
To your point on what happens if 'they fail the Irish people' well simply they wont be elected again like the last bunch, everyone had their right to cast their vote, the people did. I again would add to the chorus of people saying that OG and these groups should form some political entity and clearly state their aims, goals and the means to achieve these, until then, like i said before the average man in the street will simply ignore them and this so called 99% talk, they dont represent me so you can take my % out of it.
Not you personally Shakti as you say you dont speak for them simply support their ideas if im not misunderstanding you.

Shakti

ben.schlomo wrote: »

Both are economists actually

semantics the point is they were not elected

and i for one would feel a lot better about an economist running an economy in meltdown rather than a person or persons with no basic knowledge of qualification in this area.

Doesn't really matter how you or I feel about it its what the Greek people feel about it they don't support/like/or want to lose the right to elect their own leaders hence the massive protests both peaceful and violent on the streets there which have been largely ignored by both the domestic and foreign media in favor of soundbites of "its for their own good" from their suited and booted 'partners in europe'.

To your point on what happens if 'they fail the Irish people' well simply they wont be elected again like the last bunch, everyone had their right to cast their vote, the people did. I again would add to the chorus of people saying that OG and these groups should form some political entity and clearly state their aims, goals and the means to achieve these, until then, like i said before the average man in the street will simply ignore them and this so called 99% talk, they dont represent me so you can take my % out of it.

Since when did you have to form a political party, be a financial expert or somehow be considered part of some oblique and reductive percentage to simply want or have a chance of a Country,Home, Job, Healthcare, Education for you and our children and have to justify why you feel it is something worth fighting/protesting for?

Not you personally Shakti as you say you dont speak for them simply support their ideas if im not misunderstanding you.

I appreciate it but I have and state my own views they may or may not coincide with the 'OG' or indeed other groups but they are my own and as such I will only take responsibility for them.

antoobrien

Shakti wrote: »

semantics the point is they were not elected

Hello, Kenny wasn't elected Taoiseach - he was just elected TD for Mayo. His party nominated him for the position supported by labour - they didn't have to.

I wonder, constitutionally speaking, does the Taoiseach have to be a member of the daíl, similar to the way that ministers don't have to be.

If it is the case that the taosieach does not have to be a member of the dail, it would the be possible for say Mick O'Leary to be nominated for Taoiseach - if he got the support of enough members of the dail & seanad (pretty much what has happened in italy).

Shakti

antoobrien wrote: »

Hello, Kenny wasn't elected Taoiseach - he was just elected TD for Mayo. His party nominated him for the position supported by labour - they didn't have to.

I wonder, constitutionally speaking, does the Taoiseach have to be a member of the daíl, similar to the way that ministers don't have to be.

If it is the case that the taosieach does not have to be a member of the dail, it would the be possible for say Mick O'Leary to be nominated for Taoiseach - if he got the support of enough members of the dail & seanad (pretty much what has happened in italy).

quite and thanks for nightmare

ciotog

antoobrien wrote: »

Hello, Kenny wasn't elected Taoiseach - he was just elected TD for Mayo. His party nominated him for the position supported by labour - they didn't have to.

I wonder, constitutionally speaking, does the Taoiseach have to be a member of the daíl, similar to the way that ministers don't have to be.

If it is the case that the taosieach does not have to be a member of the dail, it would the be possible for say Mick O'Leary to be nominated for Taoiseach - if he got the support of enough members of the dail & seanad (pretty much what has happened in italy).

Article 28
7. 1° The Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and the member of the
Government who is in charge of the Department of Finance
must be members of Dáil Éireann.
2° The other members of the Government must be
members of Dáil Éireann or Seanad Éireann, but not
more than two may be members of Seanad Éireann.

Danakin

ben.schlomo wrote: »

Both are economists actually and i for one would feel a lot better about an economist running an economy in meltdown rather than a person or persons with no basic knowledge of qualification in this area.
To your point on what happens if 'they fail the Irish people' well simply they wont be elected again like the last bunch, everyone had their right to cast their vote, the people did. I again would add to the chorus of people saying that OG and these groups should form some political entity and clearly state their aims, goals and the means to achieve these, until then, like i said before the average man in the street will simply ignore them and this so called 99% talk, they dont represent me so you can take my % out of it.
Not you personally Shakti as you say you dont speak for them simply support their ideas if im not misunderstanding you.

I understand your point about having economists in control in periods of meltdown. I don't agree with it as I think it's essentially anti-democratic but that's only part of the problem.

The interesting question is why these economists?

The answer is that they come from a school of economic thought that agrees with the models and policy of expansionary austerity which many other, equally capable and qualified economists, do not.

Those economists have not been put in place however. If it proves (as many other economists believe it will) that the model these two support does not work then the countries involved will be as damaged as they would have been with politicians in charge.

Economists (especially neoclassical ones) may not be ideological but they are modelological.

ben.schlomo

Danakin wrote: »

I understand your point about having economists in control in periods of meltdown. I don't agree with it as I think it's essentially anti-democratic but that's only part of the problem.

The interesting question is why these economists?

The answer is that they come from a school of economic thought that agrees with the models and policy of expansionary austerity which many other, equally capable and qualified economists, do not.

Those economists have not been put in place however. If it proves (as many other economists believe it will) that the model these two support does not work then the countries involved will be as damaged as they would have been with politicians in charge.

Economists (especially neoclassical ones) may not be ideological but they are modelological.

Pretty sure you made that word up???
As for being as screwed as much with or without them that may be but the fact is every country in Europe is under pressure of some sort now and nobody has tried the economist route, cant hurt anymore than has already. There will always be differences between neoclassicals and institutionalists and Marxists but neoclassics is the current trend so its hard to turn that tide. There needs to be austerity in the likes of Greece, Spain and Italy as their debts are simply too huge for there not to be, but austerity alone is obviously no the answer.

Danakin

ben.schlomo wrote: »

Pretty sure you made that word up???
As for being as screwed as much with or without them that may be but the fact is every country in Europe is under pressure of some sort now and nobody has tried the economist route, cant hurt anymore than has already. There will always be differences between neoclassicals and institutionalists and Marxists but neoclassics is the current trend so its hard to turn that tide. There needs to be austerity in the likes of Greece, Spain and Italy as their debts are simply too huge for there not to be, but austerity alone is obviously no the answer.

Heard a professor using it at a guest lecture the last day and I think it sums up this fundamentalist, quasi-religious belief that neoclassic economists have in bizarre ideas like expansionary austerity.

Probably the only school that can take on neoclassicism in the mainstream is Keynesianism which points out clearly that this austerity-focused idea will not work.

I think Occupy and others would find it easier to deal with the current situation if this austerity was not being piled on during a period of severe unemployment and tiny demand levels.

Phase in the austerity, preferably with some short term stimulus and make sure the wealthy pay their fair share and the middle and working classes don't take the brunt of it.

Also some justice being brought to bear on bankers and traders who got us into this mess would soften the austerity blow.

That should probably include making them bear at least most, if not all, of the losses the state has absorbed for them.

K-9

If an economist doesn't have to engage in politics it could be a good thing.

What tends to happen is, they get involved in politics and think too much balancing 2 opposing social sciences like Garret, or just look at things economically ignoring politics and the social cost, McWilliams advising Lenihan on the guarantee a perfect example.

ben.schlomo

Danakin wrote: »

Heard a professor using it at a guest lecture the last day and I think it sums up this fundamentalist, quasi-religious belief that neoclassic economists have in bizarre ideas like expansionary austerity.

Probably the only school that can take on neoclassicism in the mainstream is Keynesianism which points out clearly that this austerity-focused idea will not work.

I think Occupy and others would find it easier to deal with the current situation if this austerity was not being piled on during a period of severe unemployment and tiny demand levels.

Phase in the austerity, preferably with some short term stimulus and make sure the wealthy pay their fair share and the middle and working classes don't take the brunt of it.

Also some justice being brought to bear on bankers and traders who got us into this mess would soften the austerity blow.

That should probably include making them bear at least most, if not all, of the losses the state has absorbed for them.

Agree completely with most of that.

eire.man

Storm 10 wrote: »

Well I am working hard to look after my family and pay my bills, yet I see these loungers in Eyre Square doing nothing all day and we the taxpayers are paying for them to arse about. The square is a shambles where they are, time to move on.

ah that old chestnut eh

so were we until we all lost jobs!

eire.man

ben.schlomo wrote: »

Shakti wrote: »

Is that their aim? I don't speak for them so you'll have to ask them yourself.



Not good enough by a really long chalk, I tried going to the gym three times a week I failed I left nobody cried. 'Enda & Co.' try and fail and people lose there homes, prolong and add misery and hardship, so saying 'at least they tried' is simply not good enough. Failure to pay your mortgage results in you losing your home whats the penalty for failing the Irish People?.



The banks are telling government what to do not the other way round, this has to change and I suspect thats what the 'OG' and other 'Occupy' groups are protesting/campaigning about at least that is my understanding but again I do not speak for them



Perhaps, but I suspect markedly more than you or I will posting about it on the Internet.



Banks are unelected and they are running this country/europe and as we have recently seen bankers have now been installed in both Greece and Italy as unelected heads of state, how long before the bundesbank et al. install similar here. If you want some financial advise you should buy some shares in 'Millets' or 'River Deep Mountain High'.

Both are economists actually and i for one would feel a lot better about an economist running an economy in meltdown rather than a person or persons with no basic knowledge of qualification in this area.
To your point on what happens if 'they fail the Irish people' well simply they wont be elected again like the last bunch, everyone had their right to cast their vote, the people did. I again would add to the chorus of people saying that OG and these groups should form some political entity and clearly state their aims, goals and the means to achieve these, until then, like i said before the average man in the street will simply ignore them and this so called 99% talk, they dont represent me so you can take my % out of it.
Not you personally Shakti as you say you dont speak for them simply support their ideas if im not misunderstanding you.

to be quite honest it's mainly keyboard warriors and ignorance that has people making claims such as the average man on the street ignoring us,

this is so not true as we are talking to the average Joe soaps on the street day in, day out and we have the support of 99% of them! some will never believe things can change and good luck to them.

ben.schlomo

eire.man wrote: »

to be quite honest it's mainly keyboard warriors and ignorance that has people making claims such as the average man on the street ignoring us,

this is so not true as we are talking to the average Joe soaps on the street day in, day out and we have the support of 99% of them! some will never believe things can change and good luck to them.

99% of the general public is it?

zarquon

ben.schlomo wrote: »

99% of the general public is it?

Careful, only a keyboard warrior would disagree with the stance that they have 99% percent of public support.

muppetkiller

eire.man wrote: »

ah that old chestnut eh

so were we until we all lost jobs!

So are you/your OG Galway buddies actively seeking to find work while in the Camp ?
I saw no less than 12 jobs advertised on my way up town this morning. I'm sure if you left the camp you might actually find work and not get the rest of us to pay for your little camping holiday.