Occupy Galway Group (mod note added)

ben.schlomo

Irishgoatman wrote: »

Bearing in mind my post, is it possible for you to explain how I sat back and enjoyed the boom?
What questions should I have been asking? and of whom?

As I clearly stated, I borrowed nothing and did not spend wildly.
So how did I enjoy the boom?

To say that I am confused by your post is an understatement.

I meant in general you, me and everyone else who was comfortable and not borrowing wildly etc just sat back. We didnt ask why the banks were overextending themselves, why people were borrowing heavily etc etc etc.

Gingko

ben.schlomo wrote: »

I meant in general you, me and everyone else who was comfortable and not borrowing wildly etc just sat back. We didnt ask why the banks were overextending themselves, why people were borrowing heavily etc etc etc.

No Ben! Your wrong? Many people don't understand the in's and out's of banking. They are just living their lives. We all hope that our public representatives and people who control and dictate society do so democratically and in the best interests of all the people. (obviously not the case)

My brother is a highly qualified Financial Controller and even he does not know all the in's and out's of the banking system. Their a bunch of bloody loan sharks and make no doubt about that! The sooner people unite and do it for themselves the better for all of us. Barter, permaculture, sustainability, community and real democracy. The power is in the hands of a tiny minority that are completely separated from the realities out there. The sad thing is we have all the knowledge and technology to change this system already. But people from certain quarters scoff at the ideas before really educating themselves. The benefits are endless..

ben.schlomo

Gingko wrote: »

No Ben! You're wrong? Many people don't understand the in's and out's of banking. They are just living their lives. We all hope that our public representatives and people who control and dictate society do so democratically and in the best interests of all the people. (obviously not the case)

My brother is a highly qualified Financial Controller and even he does not know all the in's and out's of the banking system. Their a bunch of bloody loan sharks and make no doubt about that! The sooner people unite and do it for themselves the better for all of us. Barter, permaculture, sustainability, community and real democracy. The power is in the hands of a tiny minority that are completely separated from the realities out there. The sad thing is we have all the knowledge and technology to change this system already. But people from certain quarters scoff at the ideas before really educating themselves. The benefits are endless..

So what exactly is your alternative to the banking system as we know it? And dont give a generic up in the air style rant thing like above, specifics are what people like me who dont support this OG movement are after form ye. Ye are great at lecturing us on how evil etc the banks are but im not hearing solid concrete solutions.
FYP too.;)

Gingko

ben.schlomo wrote: »

So what exactly is your alternative to the banking system as we know it? And dont give a generic up in the air style rant thing like above, specifics are what people like me who dont support this OG movement are after form ye. Ye are great at lecturing us on how evil etc the banks are but im not hearing solid concrete solutions.
FYP too.;)

First of all I'm not a member of OG. I'm not even in Galway any more! But I do support the occupy movement. Change is gradual. For all our sakes it should be anyway! I'm not saying end this system overnight eh? But a change is surely needed. Deal with the corruption within the banks for a start. Wasn't just Ireland either, lets remember many other countries are going through this and indeed the golden ones of Europe Germany even had atrocious corruption in their banks just a few years back. The banking and indeed monetary system is based on unsustainable industry and pawning people off against each other. It is simply immoral. Jailing the likes of Sean Fitzpatrick would be a start in the right direction.

Now bear with me? I worked in Portugal over the Summer months. On a big permaculture farm in the West Algarve. They produce all their own food and energy. Have built there own homes. No loans. They are independent and in this particular instance off the grid. They have a wind turbine and rotary solar panels. There are other similar communities in the area and they meet up and barter with each other for anything that may be needed or to share skills etc. I've never experienced anything like this before. I used to be sceptical about this and indeed slagged a friend of mine off for leaving the system to live like this. But it works! There I met the most educated and enlightened people from all over Europe. They have committees to sort out problems and differences. Very civilised and everyone has worth in the community, young and old! Everyone gets to utilise their specific skills. Nothing wasted and nobody is stressed out. Their healthier, fitter and have more time to spend with each other.

This is where I now see my future after years of meaningless hard slog and for what? And before you knock it like I did? Try it for a week or two? There are communities and farms starting here now thankfully. You will be most welcome.

ben.schlomo

Gingko wrote: »

First of all I'm not a member of OG. I'm not even in Galway any more! But I do support the occupy movement. Change is gradual. For all our sakes it should be anyway! I'm not saying end this system overnight eh? But a change is surely needed. Deal with the corruption within the banks for a start. Wasn't just Ireland either, lets remember many other countries are going through this and indeed the golden ones of Europe Germany even had atrocious corruption in their banks just a few years back. The banking and indeed monetary system is based on unsustainable industry and pawning people off against each other. It is simply immoral. Jailing the likes of Sean Fitzpatrick would be a start in the right direction.

Now bear with me? I worked in Portugal over the Summer months. On a big permaculture farm in the West Algarve. They produce all their own food and energy. Have built there own homes. No loans. They are independent and in this particular instance off the grid. They have a wind turbine and rotary solar panels. There are other similar communities in the area and they meet up and barter with each other for anything that may be needed or to share skills etc. I've never experienced anything like this before. I used to be sceptical about this and indeed slagged a friend of mine off for leaving the system to live like this. But it works! There I met the most educated and enlightened people from all over Europe. They have committees to sort out problems and differences. Very civilised and everyone has worth in the community, young and old! Everyone gets to utilise their specific skills. Nothing wasted and nobody is stressed out. Their healthier, fitter and have more time to spend with each other.

This is where I now see my future after years of meaningless hard slog and for what? And before you knock it like I did? Try it for a week or two? There are communities and farms starting here now thankfully. You will be most welcome.

Sounds great, i also lived in Portugal for 3 months, east Algarve . But it just wouldn't be something which will take hold in modern society, sounds bit regressive to me. It has its merits though nd at least you were able to answer some of what i asked which is a rarity in this thread.

Gingko

ben.schlomo wrote: »

Sounds great, i also lived in Portugal for 3 months, east Algarve . But it just wouldn't be something which will take hold in modern society, sounds bit regressive to me. It has its merits though nd at least you were able to answer some of what i asked which is a rarity in this thread.

I can assure you it is far from regressive. Farms and homes are expertly designed. And they live with all the comforts. These people are more technologically advanced then anyone I've known. I was humbled actually! What it does take is skilled people though.

I will however agree with you that some younger protesters on the occupy protests particularly Galway don't have a clue in general. If they came in to money themselves they would probably party up or buy into all of the materialistic trappings themselves. It can be hard listening to it all in Galway at times. The town seems to attract "lost" people for whatever reasons. Don't tar all of the OG group with one brush though. Yea Portugal is lovely and very under rated! Make it out west next time and up to Lisbon too. Great spots.

Irishgoatman

ben.schlomo wrote: »

I meant in general you, me and everyone else who was comfortable and not borrowing wildly etc just sat back. We didnt ask why the banks were overextending themselves, why people were borrowing heavily etc etc etc.

Sorry but you are, still, not making much sense to me .

When you use the word "comfortable", if you mean well off financially
then that wasn't me. I have enough savings to cover any possible unexpected overhead that may arise.
What I did was I lived within my means. No credit card just a debit card. If the money wasn't there I didn't buy.
Although I often wondered why people where buying/building such large houses or buying big cars I was not in a position to ASK the banks or anyone "WHY", I would have been told to mind my own business.

ben.schlomo

Irishgoatman wrote: »

Sorry but you are, still, not making much sense to me .

When you use the word "comfortable", if you mean well off financially
then that wasn't me. I have enough savings to cover any possible unexpected overhead that may arise.
What I did was I lived within my means. No credit card just a debit card. If the money wasn't there I didn't buy.
Although I often wondered why people where buying/building such large houses or buying big cars I was not in a position to ASK the banks or anyone "WHY", I would have been told to mind my own business.

Thats fair enough but the elected representatives that you and I put in power are there to be asked, if we as a society had been more vigilant then maybe we would not be struggling like we are now. Remember there were economists out there telling us what was happening was unsustainable but people did not want to know unfortunately.

antoobrien

Gingko

Stop asking questions and make a point. Because of the way you're using question marks I've no idea what you're actually trying to say.

Gingko wrote: »

Anto you are consistently saying the people and Irish public etc,

Yes that was the market that in operation.

Gingko wrote: »

Once again a certain percent of the population did spend irresponsibly but the great many did not???

Is that a question or a statement? I think you're trying to say that the majority of people were not irresponsible with their money.

My response to that is that you're talking utter horses**t. How many ordinary people have had to get personal/term loans to pay off credit card debt in the thousands.

I know a great many people who were spending recklessly, the vast majority of the people I know. I don't know that many who actually saved during the boom.

Gingko wrote: »

Many people did not buy houses and new cars

I know, I have neither.

How many is many btw - there were over 70,000 new houses & apartments built in 2007 alone. So even allowing for a large property investments sector (buy to let, letting companies etc) there are tens of thousands of individuals who bought or built their own houses in 2007 alone.

I rent a room in a house in Dublin where I work & bought a 2nd hand car. There are a great many more people who wouldn't have done either before the celtic tiger. I know several people, who's first car was a brand new 4x4 (then they were builders and the like, so they'd actually need one).

I know that my economic actions - buying things to the uninitiated - helped to support prices of various things. This in turn help to pay the wages of the people buying houses. Therefore, despite the fact that I didn't actually buy one, through my other purchases and the renting of property I helped to keep prices at an artificially high level.

I had a choice between buying a house (with someone because I couldn't have gotten a mortgage on my own) or renting. I chose renting because it was the most practical. Other people chose buying for various reasons. Fair play.

One of the most annoying things I've heard over the past 6 or so years is that rent is "dead money". This attitude was one of the biggest drivers of house prices over the past 10 years - why should I rent when I can afford to buy for an extra €200 each week/month?

I wished I was able to wait another year before buying my car because the prices were 10% or more lower than when I bought it. I wasn't able to delay, so it cost me a couple of thousand euro more than it could have. Nothing I can do about it, I had to buy the car for various reasons and I did get the benefit of it for the year so I probably saved part of the "extra" cost in time, money and utility.

I could go about complaining about how the markets were irresponsible for not falling and not supporting the price that I paid for the car - which is what a lot of the guff I've been hearing about the housing market amounts to.

If you bought at a price, the choice to buy was yours. Live with the consequences.

Gingko wrote: »

many people did not see any of the Celtic tiger money anyway??#

The SW classes saw more than I did during the tiger. I was a student during the tiger, so the only "benefit" I saw was the fact that free fees were introduced during it's early days and the increased wages my father got due to being in employment.

However SW went from €96.50/week in 2000 to €204.80 in 2009 (it's currently still above the 2007 government revenue peak amount). In contrast my first job in 1998 paid €127 into my pocket. I was paying more than 20% (I think it was about 25% at the time) PAYE and also PRSI. Now tax wouldn't be paid on the same relative wage (paye now starts at 16,500) - more benefits of the tiger.

Guess what, the celtic tiger did get to everyone - everyones wages went up, even for people that were not in the PS & unions.

Now if you'd said something vaguely accurate like the celtic tiger money wasn't distributed equally I'd give you a grudging point - before laughing at you. No economic system in history has done this. Even the communists had ruling classes where you were rewarded based on your position not your effort.

Gingko wrote: »

I don't think your a people person Anto?

I don't give a rats a**e what people think of me. I will not let people foist the blame off on other people, which is exactly what OG are trying to do.

The concentration on the banks, & property developers is getting tired at this stage. They did facilitate what happened, there's no denying that but something that's being overlooked is the reasons why things got so out of hand. It's easy to say it was all greed from the banks & property developers and those nasty people who have pensions & investments that need a return(oops I fall into the 3rd category, as would a lot of people who have pensions) so they issue bonds (no I really don't want my money back, burn me, burn me!) but that ignores the question of what was really fueling the fire.

The answer is so simple that it's hard to believe. It's also something that many people don't want to believe because it turns out it wasn't everyone else's fault.........We as a society are responsible for what happened here over the past 15 years. Without the demand for their services by the Irish public there would have been a massive housing market bubble or massive credit card & other personal debt.

Who's to blame for that debt? The people who borrowed.

I'm part of the problem. I have a car loan and credit card, helping to fuel things. Or right now, helping things to tick over because I'm still spending the same was I have been all my life - within my means.

I'm going to ask you straight out again - Did the people have a choice to borrow the money they did?

Irishgoatman

ben.schlomo wrote: »

Thats fair enough but the elected representatives that you and I put in power are there to be asked, if we as a society had been more vigilant then maybe we would not be struggling like we are now. Remember there were economists out there telling us what was happening was unsustainable but people did not want to know unfortunately.

At last I understand what you're saying!.

I should have gone to my local TD and asked "Why are those people down the road from me buying/building a big house?" & "Why are those people up the road buying a large 4 x 4 car when there's only 2 of them in the family?". Please get real!!
There was nothing that the likes of me or Ginko's pensioner parents could have said or done that would have done any good. As I said, we would have been asked what business it was of ours.
If anything we did our bit by not buying into the boom in the same way.

Enough is enough. I won't be conversing with you on these particular points again so there is no need for a reply to this. You obviously live in a different world.

celtictiger

antoobrien wrote: »

One of the most annoying things I've heard over the past 6 or so years is that rent is "dead money". This attitude was one of the biggest drivers of house prices over the past 10 years - why should I rent when I can afford to buy for an extra €200 each week/month?

Spot on.

Danakin

antoobrien wrote: »

Gingko

Stop asking questions and make a point. Because of the way you're using question marks I've no idea what you're actually trying to say.



Yes that was the market that in operation.


Is that a question or a statement? I think you're trying to say that the majority of people were not irresponsible with their money.

My response to that is that you're talking utter horses**t. How many ordinary people have had to get personal/term loans to pay off credit card debt in the thousands.

I know a great many people who were spending recklessly, the vast majority of the people I know. I don't know that many who actually saved during the boom.



I know, I have neither.

How many is many btw - there were over 70,000 new houses & apartments built in 2007 alone. So even allowing for a large property investments sector (buy to let, letting companies etc) there are tens of thousands of individuals who bought or built their own houses in 2007 alone.

I rent a room in a house in Dublin where I work & bought a 2nd hand car. There are a great many more people who wouldn't have done either before the celtic tiger. I know several people, who's first car was a brand new 4x4 (then they were builders and the like, so they'd actually need one).

I know that my economic actions - buying things to the uninitiated - helped to support prices of various things. This in turn help to pay the wages of the people buying houses. Therefore, despite the fact that I didn't actually buy one, through my other purchases and the renting of property I helped to keep prices at an artificially high level.

I had a choice between buying a house (with someone because I couldn't have gotten a mortgage on my own) or renting. I chose renting because it was the most practical. Other people chose buying for various reasons. Fair play.

One of the most annoying things I've heard over the past 6 or so years is that rent is "dead money". This attitude was one of the biggest drivers of house prices over the past 10 years - why should I rent when I can afford to buy for an extra €200 each week/month?

I wished I was able to wait another year before buying my car because the prices were 10% or more lower than when I bought it. I wasn't able to delay, so it cost me a couple of thousand euro more than it could have. Nothing I can do about it, I had to buy the car for various reasons and I did get the benefit of it for the year so I probably saved part of the "extra" cost in time, money and utility.

I could go about complaining about how the markets were irresponsible for not falling and not supporting the price that I paid for the car - which is what a lot of the guff I've been hearing about the housing market amounts to.

If you bought at a price, the choice to buy was yours. Live with the consequences.




The SW classes saw more than I did during the tiger. I was a student during the tiger, so the only "benefit" I saw was the fact that free fees were introduced during it's early days and the increased wages my father got due to being in employment.

However SW went from €96.50/week in 2000 to €204.80 in 2009 (it's currently still above the 2007 government revenue peak amount). In contrast my first job in 1998 paid €127 into my pocket. I was paying more than 20% (I think it was about 25% at the time) PAYE and also PRSI. Now tax wouldn't be paid on the same relative wage (paye now starts at 16,500) - more benefits of the tiger.

Guess what, the celtic tiger did get to everyone - everyones wages went up, even for people that were not in the PS & unions.

Now if you'd said something vaguely accurate like the celtic tiger money wasn't distributed equally I'd give you a grudging point - before laughing at you. No economic system in history has done this. Even the communists had ruling classes where you were rewarded based on your position not your effort.





I don't give a rats a**e what people think of me. I will not let people foist the blame off on other people, which is exactly what OG are trying to do.

The concentration on the banks, & property developers is getting tired at this stage. They did facilitate what happened, there's no denying that but something that's being overlooked is the reasons why things got so out of hand. It's easy to say it was all greed from the banks & property developers and those nasty people who have pensions & investments that need a return(oops I fall into the 3rd category, as would a lot of people who have pensions) so they issue bonds (no I really don't want my money back, burn me, burn me!) but that ignores the question of what was really fueling the fire.

The answer is so simple that it's hard to believe. It's also something that many people don't want to believe because it turns out it wasn't everyone else's fault.........We as a society are responsible for what happened here over the past 15 years. Without the demand for their services by the Irish public there would have been a massive housing market bubble or massive credit card & other personal debt.

Who's to blame for that debt? The people who borrowed.

I'm part of the problem. I have a car loan and credit card, helping to fuel things. Or right now, helping things to tick over because I'm still spending the same was I have been all my life - within my means.

I'm going to ask you straight out again - Did the people have a choice to borrow the money they did?

Three quick points:

1. It is the role of government to deflate bubbles in the economy. Those of a very free market persuasion would disagree but in general, it is accepted that through fiscal means the government can and should deflate housing and credit bubbles. They did not do this and instead rode the bubbles to election victories through giveaway budgets.

2. The free-market argument: Those who believe in an unfettered free-market where governments do not step in as outlined above, would certainly not agree with the state bailing out those that have lent recklessly to those who cannot pay back their loans. So if you absolve the government of blame above then you cannot absolve them of blame for bailing out/guaranteeing banks.

3. The inequality argument: It is true that no society has ever achieved a perfectly equal distribution of wealth. That does not mean that we cannot strive to become more equal and get closer to states with lower income inequality such as the Scandinavian countries.

skelliser

events in europe in the past week and over the next 10 days will eclipse this protest.

with no clear mandate or direction its a waste of time.

massiveattack

skelliser wrote: »

events in europe in the past week and over the next 10 days will eclipse this protest.

with no clear mandate or direction its a waste of time.

Indeed, my mate said the pile of stoners are still out there and are an eyesore in the square

inisboffin

massiveattack wrote: »

Indeed, my mate said the pile of stoners are still out there and are an eyesore in the square

Well that's the market workers on their break

How about the Occupy Galway people?


*truthfully I only know one market stoner, so take that as a joke!

massiveattack

inisboffin wrote: »

Well that's the market workers on their break

How about the Occupy Galway people?


*truthfully I only know one market stoner, so take that as a joke!

Only quoting what he said

Irishgoatman

http://galwayindependent.com/stories/item/212/2011-48/Praise-for-the-Occupy-Galway-movement

Worth reading.

Gingko

Irishgoatman wrote: »

http://galwayindependent.com/stories/item/212/2011-48/Praise-for-the-Occupy-Galway-movement

Worth reading.

Thanks for that, worth a read!

Irishgoatman

Thank Hippygran, she sent it to me by text.
She's had to give my Grandson his computer back. Everyone say AHhhh.

WallyGUFC

Sweeping generalisations in that letter, saying all the people who criticise the movement prance around in suits. Typical of the movement tbh. Hostile, resorting to abuse and absolutely no solid plans or ideas. Ironic of the writer to say these people have no solutions, and then go on to ask the movement to start making solutions, 2 months into the protest. 2 months wasted really.

Irishgoatman

WallyGUFC wrote: »

Sweeping generalisations in that letter, saying all the people who criticise the movement prance around in suits. Typical of the movement tbh. Hostile, resorting to abuse and absolutely no solid plans or ideas. Ironic of the writer to say these people have no solutions, and then go on to ask the movement to start making solutions, 2 months into the protest. 2 months wasted really.

I don't think you read the piece properly.
The writer says"... many...prance around in suits" , not ALL. The writer is, of course, referring to the Bankers etc who, mainly, caused the problems. Not ordinary people who choose to wear a suit.
He or she also refers to the people in suits as having no solutions, not the protesters, which your post seems to suggest.
If you're ill, you go to a person who, you hope, will have the answer, your Doctor. YOU are not expected to solve the problem. That's what experts are for. All anyone else can do is point out the symptoms/problems not find the cure

Irishgoatman

Irishgoatman wrote: »

http://galwayindependent.com/stories/item/212/2011-48/Praise-for-the-Occupy-Galway-movement

Worth reading.

Gingko wrote: »

Thanks for that, worth a read!

not really worth a read at all

same generalistions ranging from the famine to guys in expensive suits.

complete twaddle to be honest, similar to the rubbish spouted by the occupy galway group both time I went and spoke to them in person. During the most recent expierence, while trying to get a straight answer on topic A, all I was given was some speil about the Corrib gas fields, then the IMF, the how privatisation is evil.

All the while not answering what I asked in the first place.

d-gal

I'm delighted this group is getting less notice now, seems to be less of them around the square.
I have talked to 2 of the protestors, 1 of whom was genuinely nice but couldn't hold an argument and the other who smelt so vile I nearly puked.
The general consensus around the town seems to be 'ah leave them at it, they think they are making a difference and they'll be gone eventually'. Typical galway really too laid back. It should be torn down by the police, it looks absolutely horrendous and if any normal citizen did it you would be gone within a couple of days

Storm 10

Passed by there on Saturday listened to one of them trying to invite another person to come in and talk about where we are today, Quote: "if you come in and chat about the problems we face today we can do something about it" what the fcuk can they do about it, none of us can do anything about it, we are in this mess and will be for years to come. as another poster has said the place is a real mess there and I am sure it will be a health hazard as time goes on. Time to pack up and go.

By the way not all of the bank employees who wear "suits" are responsible for this, there are a lot of fine decent people working in the banks.

Wompa1

d-gal wrote: »

I have talked to 2 of the protestors, 1 of whom was genuinely nice but couldn't hold an argument and the other who smelt so vile I nearly puked.

Wooohoooo..it wasn't just me that noticed the smell

BhoscaCapall

While I don't really think the Occupy movement is of great benefit, the attitude toward them is disgusting, but no less than what I would expect from this spoilt country.

FlashD

I don't feel it was worth a read.

I kind of got bored once it started going on about the famine. What's the famine got to do with anything happening today? Ridiculous stuff.

Bit of a sweeping generalisation about people and expensive suits too, take care would anyone wear any expensive suit then. Comes across as a piece of snobbery is all.

Regards.

Irishgoatman

Storm 10 wrote: »

Passed by there on Saturday listened to one of them trying to invite another person to come in and talk about where we are today, Quote: "if you come in and chat about the problems we face today we can do something about it" what the fcuk can they do about it, none of us can do anything about it, we are in this mess and will be for years to come. as another poster has said the place is a real mess there and I am sure it will be a health hazard as time goes on. Time to pack up and go.

By the way not all of the bank employees who wear "suits" are responsible for this, there are a lot of fine decent people working in the banks.

If your last paragraph refers to my earlier posting, I think you will find that when ANYBODY refers to The Bankers causing the mess we are in, the vast majority, if not all, of the population understands it to mean the guys at the top who moved the money around and made very large dubious loans. Not the everyday bank workers.
I suspect that you are the one exception.

Fuinseog

just heard a rumour that the occupy Galway were paid to move their camp to another part of the square. if they were to set up camp on shop street would it also be tolerated?

Fuinseog

Wompa1 wrote: »

Wooohoooo..it wasn't just me that noticed the smell

while I presume they use local pubs to take a dump
do they go home for a shower?
do they stay they in shifts or are the same people there 24 7?