Occupy Galway Group (mod note added)

Hello world

eire.man wrote: »

well ya see down at the camp we'll fight against everything and anything that will further invade peoples already fragile lives, if you want to remain in the matrix thinking everything is rosey then by all means do that but please dont jump on a bandwagon against us when we are fighting against all the ways the man is attacking the 99% so as to keep him and his 1% buddies in the lifestyle they do not deserve!!

Oh please don't try win we over with the 1% argument because as far as I'm concerned having 1% of super rich people just gives people more drive to achieve and get a good job or try make them super rich could u imagine a world where everyone has the exact same amount of money it would make everything boring

antoobrien

eire.man wrote: »

when we are fighting against all the ways the man is attacking the 99% so as to keep him and his 1% buddies in the lifestyle they do not deserve!!

Funny thing that, the top 1% of earners pay about 20% of the income tax take. Whereas those on or below the average wage (78% of the tax net were at or under 40k, the average wage was about 38k at the time - I fall into this bracket btw) pay a cumulative 1.003 billion in income tax.

To put that into context, in 2009, the total tax take was €33 billion, the cumulative income of the 78% was 22 billion. Vat (10.7b) was 21% so the most they could pay was about 2.5 billion (which is not possible because food is vat exempt). Excise, they probably paid about 1/3 (it is 1/3 of the population we're talking about), but or arguments sake we'll say they paid 80% - 3.75 billion.

So I make it about 1 b in income tax, 2.5 b in vat and 3.7 b in excise - totaling about 7.25 billion (out of these three areas totaling 27 billion) paid for by 78% of the workforce.

Yeah we should be sticking to those people that are subsidizing our water, roads, sewage, education, health & social welfare bills.

God know we the people that use these services, shouldn't have to pay for any of them.:rolleyes:

sgthighway

Just my 2 cents.

The issue is not unique to Galway City. Similar threads in other Sub-Forums such as Cork City went through the same crap as here -> your right - your wrong. That ended up been locked.
Most of the Country is upset with the actions of the last and/or current government.
I believe this thread is more suitable in another forum.

Hello world

eire.man wrote: »

yes i did a year in music technology, spent me €6,500 maintenance grant on brand new music production equipment and studied what i wanted after the year, i learned all about binaural effects that can move people through their shakras so as to increase the effect you get from the music, subtractive synthesis which is creating any sound with it's relative wave forms, running them through correct filtering and basically creating my own kick drums, snares, cymbal sounds etc, im glad i learned at my own intense pace at home in year 2 as my mate who went onto Tralee it still hasnt touched on most of what i learned 8/10 hours a day 6/7 days a week.

in the one year course i did i learned i love the science of sound and the time spent since college has blown my mind

Oh sweet Jesus! Please stop telling me about your life I really really really dot care. I did not ask about how your college experience was I just said I might poke fun at it! However I don't think I need to

Irishgoatman

antoobrien wrote: »

Stopped listening when he tried to justify it as a comparison to drinking water.

I've a few problems with this comparison:
1) drinking water is not free (and isn't in many European countries) - it does cost money
2) a lot of it is wasted unnecessarily
3) motorists (motor tax) & industry subsidize it.
4) anyone in a group water scheme is already paying for it

It's a bit much to want all these services but not want to pay for them.

For certain things like water & rubbish I've been in favour of a polluter pays scheme. I see the household charge/property tax as a mechanism of doing this.

For the record I'm renting, it'll probably come out of my rent anyways (whether or it my rent goes up because of this remains to be seen) - so I will be paying for this one way or another.

For once we are almost in agreement!.

The only problem is that I live in the country, like thousands of other people, about 12 km from a town. I have a septic tank and water from a private well. The local road is always in a bad condition, I have no nice pavements to walk on and no street lighting etc, and yet I will be paying the same amount as people who have these services provided for them.

I do make use of these things when I go into town and the town library etc and feel that I should pay SOMETHING towards them but not the same amount as people who use these services all the time.
If, as I heard a minister say, part of this 100 euro is towards the water supply, this means that I am paying for something that I will never have. That is not right or fair.

antoobrien

Irishgoatman wrote: »

For once we are almost in agreement!.

The only problem is that I live in the country, like thousands of other people, about 12 km from a town. I have a septic tank and water from a private well. The local road is always in a bad condition, I have no nice pavements to walk on and no street lighting etc, and yet I will be paying the same amount as people who have these services provided for them.

I do make use of these things when I go into town and the town library etc and feel that I should pay SOMETHING towards them but not the same amount as people who use these services all the time.
If, as I heard a minister say, part of this 100 euro is towards the water supply, this means that I am paying for something that I will never have. That is not right or fair.

You'll (hopefully) only be paying the same this year. Next year they're supposed to be moving to a value based system (tough luck if you're on 4 acres btw).

A flat fee combined with consumer/polluter pays is probably the best way to go on a number of things - water, sewage, waste, motor etc. Unfortunately that both makes sense and is fair and equitable so it's under fire from everyone on the principle that a tax is only fair if somebody else pays for it.

Irishgoatman

antoobrien wrote: »

You'll (hopefully) only be paying the same this year. Next year they're supposed to be moving to a value based system (tough luck if you're on 4 acres btw).

A flat fee combined with consumer/polluter pays is probably the best way to go on a number of things - water, sewage, waste, motor etc. Unfortunately that both makes sense and is fair and equitable so it's under fire from everyone on the principle that a tax is only fair if somebody else pays for it.

I am not advocating that "somebody else pays for it" as you said.
Just that I see no reason why I should pay for water and sewage, for example, when I have access to neither as supplied by any local authority.
For me to have to do that is grossly unfair!.
I pay my road tax and am quite happy to contribute, as I thought I made clear, towards the other local amenities that I either use or have access to.

Robbo

Let the bears pay the bear tax, I pay the Homer tax.

Doc Ruby

antoobrien wrote: »

Yeah we should be sticking to those people that are subsidizing our water, roads, sewage, education, health & social welfare bills.

There's be a lot less hue and cry if people thought they were getting value for money rather than supplementing lard though.

Water, half it leaks out before it ever reaches the taps, thats processed water, and crypto sewage leaks in, roads, there seems to be toll booths popping up everywhere, health we have a redundant HSE and health boards and we STILL need private insurance to get the basics of minimum care, and when was the last time the social welfare people actually answered a phone. Then we get to quangos, politicial judicial appointments, upwards only rent reviews, and so on.

There's a lot of codology still going on this country, and anyone with their eyes half open knows about it.

Its got to stop.

antoobrien

Irishgoatman wrote: »

I am not advocating that "somebody else pays for it" as you said.

Sorry I didn't mean to infer that, I was attempting to explain why the suggested plan was doomed to failure.

Irishgoatman wrote: »

Just that I see no reason why I should pay for water and sewage, for example, when I have access to neither as supplied by any local authority.
For me to have to do that is grossly unfair!.
I pay my road tax and am quite happy to contribute, as I thought I made clear, towards the other local amenities that I either use or have access to.

Agree with all this btw - why is it fair that you are subsidising my water (seeing as I live in a free water area)?

Besides your household fee will be going to Galway County council.

antoobrien

Doc Ruby wrote: »

There's be a lot less hue and cry if people thought they were getting value for money rather than supplementing lard though.

Water, half it leaks out before it ever reaches the taps, thats processed water, and crypto sewage leaks in, roads, there seems to be toll booths popping up everywhere, health we have a redundant HSE and health boards and we STILL need private insurance to get the basics of minimum care, and when was the last time the social welfare people actually answered a phone. Then we get to quangos, politicial judicial appointments, upwards only rent reviews, and so on.

There's a lot of codology still going on this country, and anyone with their eyes half open knows about it.

Its got to stop.

Wanna put somebody in charge who take them on?

Vote for me!

Doc Ruby

antoobrien wrote: »

Wanna put somebody in charge who take them on?

Vote for me!

Details details, I like me some details. Who are you and whats your policy base? I've a nice shiny vote right here which has a strong preference for anything not FG/FF/SF/ULA any group currently in the dail really.

padraig47

eire.man wrote: »

well ya see down at the camp we'll fight against everything and anything that will further invade peoples already fragile lives, if you want to remain in the matrix thinking everything is rosey then by all means do that but please dont jump on a bandwagon against us when we are fighting against all the ways the man is attacking the 99% so as to keep him and his 1% buddies in the lifestyle they do not deserve!!

I am a taxpayer and have been for many years. I object to the occupy group taking up space in Eyre Square claiming to act on my behalf. I do not support developers or banks but am aware that this country is living beyond its means and has to borrow to keep the show on the road. Out of every euro that people on welfare get, we are borrowing 30 cent. The same is true for all public expenditure.

antoobrien

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Details details, I like me some details. Who are you and whats your policy base? I've a nice shiny vote right here which has a strong preference for anything not FG/FF/SF/ULA any group currently in the dail really.

I probably should go back and out in a sarcastic wink after that, I'm not a politician - I'm too busy doing the real work of keeping the economy on its feet.

Besides I don't think many of my policies would be too popular:

• Property tax
• water charges based on usage
• reform PAYE PRSI & USC into a single tax
• real PS pay cuts (not the fudges we've seen)
• PS redundancies
• ps pension reform (this would cost us money)
• convert the PS to contract jobs
• complete the motorway/DC network
• stop subsidizing technologies that aren't viable (or green) e.g. electric cars - we still burn fuel to get the majority of our energy
• nuclear energy - it's time for this country to grow up about technology and i would advocate building a reactor in Galway (wouldn't build a waste incinerator or coal/oil plant)
• social welfare reform (all levels)
• reform to JLC/REA & minimum wage systems
• ban monthly payment of salary (that's a real pain in the ass)
• No investment in Dublin for 50 years besides NX & DU (both of which are needed for national infrastructure)
• bring back the groceries order to stop below cost selling
• Shoot anybody that mentions imposing a wealth tax but doesn't want a property tax (it's for their own good, really it is).
• Send the rangers after drug dealers
• institute a D4 tax - just because they annoy me

bildo

So you are neo-liberal fascist then. Surprised you're not in FG. Would they not have you or something?

factual lies

Vote no.1 Antoobrien.

you got my number 1 thats for sure. I especially love this shoot anybody proposal and am willing to send in my CV for any available positions.

antoobrien

factual lies wrote: »

Vote no.1 Antoobrien.

you got my number 1 thats for sure. I especially love this shoot anybody proposal and am willing to send in my CV for any available positions.

What and give up all the fun.;)

lobes

antoobrien wrote: »

Stopped listening when he tried to justify it as a comparison to drinking water.

Before you stopped listening - if you were listening - you would have heard the speaker say that:
"A property tax isnt necessarily a bad thing..."
http://soundcloud.com/occupygalway/h...ax-charge-talk

“The question is not whether there should be a property tax but whether it will be fair and whether it will lead, as it should, to a revolution in local democracy.”
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0110/1224310052193.html

lobes

antoobrien wrote: »

Besides your household fee will be going to Galway County council.

“...we don’t have local democracy. We barely even have local government. In most developed countries, about half of all tax revenue is spent at local level. In Ireland, just 6 per cent is. So the demand should be clear: give us real democratic local control over the revenue and we’ll pay a fair property tax.”
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0110/1224310052193.html


On the related topic of “a revolution in local democracy” heres another talk recorded recently at Occupy Galway, Eyre Square:
http://soundcloud.com/occupygalway/second-republic-talk-occupy

antoobrien

lobes wrote: »

Before you stopped listening - if you were listening - you would have heard the speaker say that:
"A property tax isnt necessarily a bad thing..."
http://soundcloud.com/occupygalway/h...ax-charge-talk

“The question is not whether there should be a property tax but whether it will be fair and whether it will lead, as it should, to a revolution in local democracy.”
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0110/1224310052193.html

If you'd read my "manifesto" the first two items there are property tax & water charges.

I stopped listening because of the water argument, which I find flawed. It costs money to generate (and does pollute, though that's not part of the argument), think of all the chemicals that have to be added to water to make it potable. So it's not unreasonable to expect payment for obtaining such a service.

So no thanks, I'm not going to listen to any more to save myself the aggravation of having to listen to more flawed argument.

In response to o'twit's article - why would you give any of either GCC or GCoC more power?

skelliser

antoobrien wrote: »

Besides your household fee will be going to Galway County council.

It wont.

It will go to the local gov. fund where the minister for the enviroment will decide where its spent in the form of grants.

So once again we are back to gombeenomics where a minister constituency will get alot more then places that need it.

If this tax is brought in at least bring in some accountability.

so, 60-70 people turned up at the protest. Hardly like 99% representation there hippygran and eireman.

In terms of Galway population thats not even 1% let alone 99%

More people support Galway United than your urban camping ground and thats really saying something

If this doesnt show you how little the level of support for your urban camping ground then i dont know what will

Hello world

^^So the protestors are the 1%!

eire.man

DaCor wrote: »

so, 60-70 people turned up at the protest. Hardly like 99% representation there hippygran and eireman.

In terms of Galway population thats not even 1% let alone 99%

More people support Galway United than your urban camping ground and thats really saying something

If this doesnt show you how little the level of support for your urban camping ground then i dont know what will

the levels of ignorance in some people never ceases to amaze me, go you!!

eire.man

Hello world wrote: »

^^So the protestors are the 1%!

yes, yes we are

eire.man

some of the ****e i've heard the past 3/4 years ; oh its all our fault, its half our fault, its more like 1% than 99%, if you dont like it leave,

if i had the money i'd be out of here so fast!! At the same time though, why should i leave?!? maybe we should run the "elite" (more like chancing b4$tards!!) out of here??

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/gene-kerrigan/gene-kerrigan-top-people-milk-system-while-we-suffer-2982492.html

There's a row going on, we're told, within the Government. On the one side, Michael Noonan, Fine Gael Minister for Austerity. And on the other side, Brendan Howlin, Labour Party Minister for Austerity.
I love a good row, but I suspect this one is conducted in discreet terms, over glasses of very fine sherry.
The Government has been closing hospital beds, kicking teachers on to the dole, destroying the educational prospects of countless kids, cutting wages, jobs and services. They've had the Revenue sniffing through hundreds of thousands of files, and writing scary letters to pensioners, telling them they might have been unwittingly under-paying their pension tax by €8 a week.
And don't forget the "bladder report charts". If you're caring for an incontinent relative, you have to measure the liquids he or she takes in. And measure the amount of urine that comes out. This will ensure that the Government doesn't waste money by distributing too many incontinence pads.
It all adds up. A guidance counsellor here, a hospital bed there, a special needs teacher here, an incontinence pad there -- we must make "tough decisions" to get that god-damn deficit down. It's that or tell the bankers and their vulture bondholders to bugger off, we're not paying their gambling debts. And I think we all know where Enda and Eamon stand on that one.
So, "tensions are mounting", the Irish Independent tells us, between Slasher Noonan and Chopper Howlin. Why? Well, remember Kevin Cardiff, the Top Person in the Department of Finance? The lad they shuffled off to a top job in the EU? He's got to be replaced. (You may have noticed, the country hasn't been the same since Kevin left).
Trouble is, there's a salary cap for top jobs. In order to convince us to accept the cuts and to save the country by measuring the urine output of the chronically ill, they had to tone down the Top People's extravagance.
However, the Indo says, Mr Noonan wants to breach the €200,000 salary cap. To attract a better class of person to apply for the Finance job. And Mr Howlin thinks that's not appropriate (given the incontinence pads and so forth).
Mind you, the Government's been quietly breaching pay caps all over the place. Bankers, ministerial advisers -- you can't get anyone worth having for a miserly wage like two hundred grand.
The Irish Independent, which has been quite good on the people who breach salary caps, last week took the Top People's side in the row. "If we want the best, we need to break the rules," said an editorial. A suitable candidate might require €400,000, it concluded. An Irish high flyer, coming from abroad, moving house, said the editorial, faces "substantial possessions to be transported, children to be placed in fee-paying schools" -- ugh, I tell you, it's no fun being a Top Person. Moving into a €200,000 job, the Indo concluded, would be "a strain on patriotism if ever there was one".
A new definition of patriotism. Agreeing to stoop to a €200,000 salary.
And what of our Dear Leader, the noble Enda? The noble Enda is on €200,000 a year, a mere €28,000 more than British PM David Cameron (who earns the equivalent of €172,000). Now, there's patriotism for you.
Mr Noonan and Mr Howlin have taken patriotic cuts, bringing them down to a mere €169,000 each. I bet you're wondering what US Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner, earns? Tim's the American equivalent of Mr Noonan. And Tim, since you ask, is on $191,300. Which is €150,400.
The head of our Central Bank, that nice Professor Patrick Honohan, took a patriotic pay cut to €276,000. His US equivalent, Ben Bernanke, chairman of the Federal Reserve, is on $199,700, which is €157,000.
Perhaps, here, I should quote former Taoiseach John Bruton. Last August, John warned against people having "a living standard they had not earned". He called for austerity and decried "restrictive practices and padded costs". Because, "none of us can solve our problems on the back of someone else's sacrifice". He warned that "prosperity is not a birthright".
Strong words. Last week, John told the Irish Independent that he's happy to hold on to his €138,000 pension (even though he has a well-paying job as PR chap for the IFSC, and before that was on big bucks from the EU).
What patriotic duties did John perform to earn a pension greater than two or three people earn in a full-time job? John was Taoiseach for two-and-a-half years, for which he was well paid. He was an unimpressive minister for finance for a total of 19 months. He also did something in industry and trade. No disrespect to John, but I can't see future generations naming streets after him.
Since leaving office, John's held top-paying positions, yet he's entitled to that big pension. For years, we've been paying secretarial services for him, and until recently he was entitled to a State car to ferry him about. His mobile phone bill was small compared with Bertie's, but we pay it.
It can't be easy to go back to being an ordinary mortal, after a total of six-and-a-half years as a minister. But, as John told us last August, we must abandon our "culture of entitlement".
Christ, I'm tired of this nonsense. The austerity policies aren't working, they're killing the real economy. We're throwing away billions, rewarding speculators for their failed gambles on idiot bankers -- gambles we had nothing to do with. Austerity has become a fetish, the political classes and the media drooling over every kick delivered to the most vulnerable.
And the people who lecture us most loudly about the necessity of all this are coasting along on salaries and pensions that remain ridiculously high by any sane standards, even if there wasn't a crisis. People are starving at the stern of the lifeboat, and at the bow the elite are being served double portions with extra gravy.
Behind it all is the claim that there are Top People with special skills, without whom we'll flounder. And these people may be patriots, but we must not put a strain on that patriotism, we must reward them with fantastic riches -- because these riches are themselves a mark of their quality.
This is claimed, despite the evidence. There are studies (for example, 'Large Stakes and Big Mistakes', Federal Reserve Bank of Boston, 2005) that question the effects of financial incentives for executives. Our own experience shows that no one in our history was ever paid more than the idiots who ran the country into the ground.
This isn't about greed. It's politics. Here, along with their comrades in the EU, the Top People intend coming through this crisis with most of their entitlements intact. They have the support of a solid body of academic and media stalwarts, none of whom are sucking crusts.
For the elite, the preservation of privilege was always a non-negotiable condition. So, tired old political solutions ("it worked in the Eighties") have guided us through a whole new crisis -- right to the edge of an economic cliff.

eire.man

eire.man wrote: »

DaCor wrote: »

so, 60-70 people turned up at the protest. Hardly like 99% representation there hippygran and eireman.

In terms of Galway population thats not even 1% let alone 99%

More people support Galway United than your urban camping ground and thats really saying something

If this doesnt show you how little the level of support for your urban camping ground then i dont know what will

the levels of ignorance in some people never ceases to amaze me, go you!!

and the analogy you used above included a bust football club who had Nick Leeson (Barings bank dodgy dealer!!) controlling finances!!

oh the ironing

ben.schlomo

eire.man wrote: »

and the analogy you used above included a bust football club who had Nick Leeson (Barings bank dodgy dealer!!) controlling finances!!

oh the ironing

Dodging the uncomfortable truth as always i see. Cant say ye arent predictable anyway.

eire.man

ben.schlomo wrote: »

eire.man wrote: »

and the analogy you used above included a bust football club who had Nick Leeson (Barings bank dodgy dealer!!) controlling finances!!

oh the ironing

Dodging the uncomfortable truth as always i see. Cant say ye arent predictable anyway.

look just because a chunk of country is suffering from accute stockholm syndrome/were busy/feel helpless it doest take from the "60/70" (it was more like 100+ to be fair) people that are willing to protest!!

ben.schlomo

eire.man wrote: »

look just because a chunk of country is suffering from accute stockholm syndrome/were busy/feel helpless it doest take from the "60/70" (it was more like 100+ to be fair) people that are willing to protest!!

Not much point name calling or making derogatory comments towards the 99% you claim to represent is there? Hardly a good promotion tool.
Anyway im not getting back into it with ye as ye never answer anything thats asked or challenged, all ye do is come back and put up your propaganda BS and then whine and use offensive language when challenged. Pointless trying to converse with ye.