Should Trinity have cancelled the Nick Griffin talk?

KeithAFC

billybudd wrote: »

He can speak to his own citizens, last time i looked the BNP did not represent Irish voters.

So why did they invite him then?

super_furry

billybudd wrote: »

He can speak to his own citizens, last time i looked the BNP did not represent Irish voters.

So you wouldn't allow him to speak on the basis of where he comes from?

I think there's a word for that.

Millicent

Morlar wrote: »

So you do accept then that the vast majority of those opposed to permitting Griffith to speak in this instance could reasonably be described as leftist ?

I agree that that's their ideology. I would not agree that their actions were leftist, but would stress that their motivation was purely prejudiced in nature. I know it seems like a semantic difference, but it's an important one.

billybudd

KeithAFC wrote: »

So why did they invite him then?

God only knows. people who inspire hatred should not be welcomed into a place of Education.

Millicent

orourkeda wrote: »

Was this speech stopped as a response to their protests?

Apparently so. That makes no difference to the point I'm trying to make.

listermint

orourkeda wrote: »

Was this speech stopped as a response to their protests?

Does it really matter? Sure he hasnt been allowed speak in any UK university since 2007. No one cares for the ramblings of a nitwit.

Im all for free speech. he can go stand on a soap box on O Connell Street. But why give him and more advertising than is warranted by giving a public stage at one of the leading colleges in the country.

It begs belief !

meditraitor

Who are these protesters what caused the cancellation?

Mike 1972

KeithAFC wrote: »

In your opinion. Some people might not agree with you. Surely he should be allowed to speak?

So Keith if the MP for -say West Belfast were to hold a rally in order to address his constituents in -say the Shankill you would regard it as fine and dandy ?

Millicent

billybudd wrote: »

God only knows. people who inspire hatred should not be welcomed into a place of Education.

I'd disagree. You can't tackle or refute what you don't understand. There was opportunity for Mr. Griffin's ideologies and viewpoints to be rebuked and debated here; that's lost now.

billybudd

super_furry wrote: »

So you wouldn't allow him to speak on the basis of where he comes from?

I think there's a word for that.

No he is the leader of a British political party and he is trying to influence Irish people, for what? If someone wants to set up and INP under the same philosophies then they are more than welcome.

sensibleken

Millicent wrote: »

I agree that that's their ideology. I would not agree that their actions were leftist, but would stress that their motivation was purely prejudiced in nature. I know it seems like a semantic difference, but it's an important one.

How do we know they were generally lefty. The Anti-fascists were planning to hold a protest gig but were shot down by the university because it was 'antagonistic'.

the people who got the invitation withdrawn were a seperate crowd of 30

KeithAFC

Mike 1972 wrote: »

So Keith if the MP for -say West Belfast were to hold a rally in order to address his constituents in -say the Shankill you would regard it as fine and dandy ?

I would. The belfast mayor was recently on the Shankill.

A certain party on this very island is allowed to travel to London and England and hold conferences which many English people would find not for them and a certain armed group associated with it which killed a lot of its own citizens. But due to freedom of speech, they are allowed.

Why is Griffin not allowed to speak?

orourkeda

listermint wrote: »

Does it really matter? Sure he hasnt been allowed speak in any UK university since 2007. No one cares for the ramblings of a nitwit.

Im all for free speech. he can go stand on a soap box on O Connell Street. But why give him and more advertising than is warranted by giving a public stage at one of the leading colleges in the country.

It begs belief !

a) Why ask him to speak?
b) Whats the problem if nobody is going to listen?

Morlar

Originally Posted by Morlar View Post
So you do accept then that the vast majority of those opposed to permitting Griffith Griffin to speak in this instance could reasonably be described as leftist ?

Millicent wrote: »

I agree that that's their ideology.

Of course they were. Glad you can finally acknowledge that simple fact.

Millicent

Morlar wrote: »

Of course they were. Glad you can finally acknowledge that simple fact.

Who disagreed? Hope you enjoyed that little "gotcha" but you totally missed my point. My point was that crushing free speech is not in fitting with a leftist ideology; that wasn't the crux of their motivation. Their prejudice against Nick Griffin was.

billybudd

Millicent wrote: »

I'd disagree. You can't tackle or refute what you don't understand. There was opportunity for Mr. Griffin's ideologies and viewpoints to be rebuked and debated here; that's lost now.

Sorry that shoud have said IMO, as for Griffin, my point still stands, he is leader of a British political party, nothing to do with us, if there is an Irish poliical figure who shares his beliefs and traditions then i would have no problem to his freespeach and would look foward to a debate based on this.

RayM

Eramen wrote: »

I don't think you are being quite honest.. I see it practically everyday.

Often you encounter people with these concerns it in the most unusual places and ways, but it's there.

Well, we must move in different circles then. Honestly, I very, very rarely encounter people moaning about immigration. I'm not suggesting that the Nick Griffins of this world are nowhere to be seen in Ireland - just that there seems to be a disproportionate number of them on internet discussion forums...

billybudd

KeithAFC wrote: »

I would. The belfast mayor was recently on the Shankill.

A certain party on this very island is allowed to travel to London and England and hold conferences which many English people would find not for them and a certain armed group associated with it which killed a lot of its own citizens. But due to freedom of speech, they are allowed.

Why is Griffin not allowed to speak?

Fianna Fail?

Duke Leonal Felmet

Johro wrote: »

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

You just contradicted yourself...

Oh wait, there are no lefite bigots, right?

'Bigots of ...., .... any political leaning'. Says it right there in post.

So I was right then. Lefties have denied freedom of speech. Must I qualify that with bigot as well?

Millicent

sensibleken wrote: »

How do we know they were generally lefty. The Anti-fascists were planning to hold a protest gig but were shot down by the university because it was 'antagonistic'.

the people who got the invitation withdrawn were a seperate crowd of 30

Really? Do you know what the group was or was there one particular group protesting?

listermint

orourkeda wrote: »

a) Why ask him to speak?
b) Whats the problem if nobody is going to listen?

A - Mistaken belief that he has a profile that deserves debate

B - University space is precious so is the cost of running the buildings, should invite any oul tool in to run down the available funds. They are finite you know.

Millicent

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

So I was right then. Lefties have denied freedom of speech. Must I qualify that with bigot as well?

I never said there weren't bigots of a left leaning. So you were wrong.

ETA: Yes, you should. It would be no more fair if someone posting that right wingers were crushing free speech. Neither are overarching ideologies. Both have bigots and zealots in each ideology who do not represent the leaning as a whole.

super_furry

billybudd wrote: »

No he is the leader of a British political party and he is trying to influence Irish people, for what? If someone wants to set up and INP under the same philosophies then they are more than welcome.

So going by that basis, you wouldn't allow someone like Desmond Tutu or Mahmoud Abbas to speak either? They're both political figures who would be influencing Irish people. Or would that be OK because you agree with and support their view points and what they'd have to say?

sensibleken

Millicent wrote: »

Really? Do you know what the group was or was there one particular group protesting?

no, i dont know thats why im asking. people seem to know they were left wing, i just want to know how people know that.

orourkeda

listermint wrote: »

A - Mistaken belief that he has a profile that deserves debate

B - University space is precious so is the cost of running the buildings, should invite any oul tool in to run down the available funds. They are finite you know.

A - If he doesnt have the profile. He shouldnt have been invited.

B - They should have thought of that at the time

Millicent

sensibleken wrote: »

no, i dont know thats why im asking. people seem to know they were left wing, i just want to know how people know that.

Fair point, actually. You've got me curious now.

Morlar

Millicent wrote: »

Who disagreed?

Well you did when you refused to clarify and instead went on a roundabout tour of excuses and equivication.

Millicent wrote: »

Hope you enjoyed that little "gotcha" but you totally missed my point. My point was that crushing free speech is not in fitting with a leftist ideology; that wasn't the crux of their motivation. Their prejudice against Nick Griffin was.

I didn't miss your point - I just don't accept your assertion.

The fact is that suppressing freedom of speech is perfectly in keeping with leftist ideology depending on the opponent. I am not talking about some generic principle of leftism, I am talking about leftism in practice.

KeithAFC

billybudd wrote: »

Fianna Fail?

I think you know. It is that sort of hypocrisy which is staggering. It doesn't seem fair and balanced.

Johro

super_furry wrote: »

Those who took the decision to uninvite him are cowardly idiots.

Banning him lends him an air of mystique and anti-authoritarianism. He can portray himself as the outside they're frightened to let speak and the victim who is being threatened with violence for his beliefs.

Nick Griffin isn't dangerous, he's a fool - just look at his UK Election performance on Question Time. If you let him speak, he'll hang himself with his idiocy.

I said exactly that in another Nick Griffin-related thread a while ago, he didn't exactly come across as a reasonable and intelligent individual, the audience reaction showed that he was definitely in a minority, and the more he protested the more laughable he became. Give him all the airtime he wants and let him and his cronies show themselves for just what they are.

K-9

Morlar wrote: »

How would you characterise the left/right leanings of those opposed to Griffith speaking in this case ? Of course it's leftist in origin.

That does not mean all left leaning people are like this but all the people that are like this are left leaning. imo.

Right wingers can support censorship too, the left seem to get the blame for it though.

DoneDL

Why was this di*khead invited, it`s bad enough that he is the head of a rascist party but talk about inarticulate. Now Enoch Powell there was a proper rascist.

billybudd

super_furry wrote: »

So going by that basis, you wouldn't allow someone like Desmond Tutu or Mahmoud Abbas to speak either? They're both political figures who would be influencing Irish people. Or would that be OK because you agree with and support their view points and what they'd have to say?

No, not if their goal was to set up groups within a land that they hold no political say over, that is happening now, the BNP under they’re many fellowships want Irish people to sing with them under one banner.

steelcityblues

K-9 wrote: »

Right wingers can support censorship too, the left seem to get the blame for it though.

Given the likes of Stalin and Chairman Mao from history, it is also dangerous for left wingers to think fascism is solely a right wing concept.

Duke Leonal Felmet

Millicent wrote: »

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

So I was right then. Lefties have denied freedom of speech. Must I qualify that with bigot as well?

I never said there weren't bigots of a left leaning. So you were wrong.

ETA: Yes, you should. It would be no more fair if someone posting that right wingers were crushing free speech. Neither are overarching ideologies. Both have bigots and zealots in each ideology who do not represent the leaning as a whole.

Nope, I said lefties denied free speech. I didn't qualify that as leftie bigots, but that does not make wrong. You just didn't read the posts properly.

No amount of saying 'you were wrong' will change that, my boy. Hand wave all you want.

buyer95

I dont feel well versed enough on this guy to vote, but I do support freedom of speech so Im leaning towards No they shouldnt of stopped him speaking. I have a vague notion that he is leader of some fascist British party? Im off to wiki to find out!

Morlar

K-9 wrote: »

Right wingers can support censorship too, the left seem to get the blame for it though.

I can not think of any examples of the right wing suppressing freedom of speech in Ireland or the UK for that matter in recent years.

There may have been some islamic hate speech cleric calling for violence or wiping out a race of people or something like that otherwise no examples spring to mind.

Millicent

Morlar wrote: »

Well you did when you refused to clarify and instead went on a roundabout tour of excuses and equivication.

I've clarified my point numerous times already. There has been no excuses or equivocation ( and thanks for being so condescending there), just an urge not to tar all lefties with the one brush. It's lazy, does both sides a disservice and is untrue.

Morlar wrote: »

I didn't miss your point - I just don't accept your assertion.

The fact is that suppressing freedom of speech is perfectly in keeping with leftist ideology depending on the opponent. I am not talking about some generic principle of leftism, I am talking about leftism in practice.

There is no "fact" there. That is your opinion. You seem to think that leftism is some club with one set of principles and people. It's not. How do you explain the lefties on here who said he should have been allowed to speak, given that pretty strong assertion?

sensibleken

steelcityblues wrote: »

Given the likes of Stalin and Chairman Mao from history, it is also dangerous for left wingers to think fascism is solely a right wing concept.

fascism is a soley right wing concept. I think your confusing facism with totalitarianism

orourkeda

Badgermonkey wrote: »

Didn't Richard Boyd Barrett make strenuous efforts to prevent arch-tit David Irving from partaking in a debate some time ago? UCC I seem to recall but could be mistaken on that.

RBB is in the anti nazi league. I believe he was invited to attend the late late show to participate in a debate with David Irving and declined.

steelcityblues

sensibleken wrote: »

fascism is a soley right wing concept. I think your confusing facism with totalitarianism

Fascism is defined as a system characterised by ' state control and extreme nationalism'.

How does that not apply to Stalin or Chairman Mao?

Morlar

Millicent wrote: »

You seem to think that leftism is some club with one set of principles and people. It's not. How do you explain the lefties on here who said he should have been allowed to speak, given that pretty strong assertion?

In a post earlier on this thread which you thanked as a matter of fact :

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74930968&postcount=95

Morlar wrote: »

How would you characterise the left/right leanings of those opposed to Griffith speaking in this case ? Of course it's leftist in origin.

That does not mean all left leaning people are like this but all the people that are like this are left leaning. imo.

marienbad

Of course he should have been allowed to speak. Cancelling that event has now given him all that free publicity without any of the rough and tumble analysis that such an event would have afforded.

Any speaker, provided they abide by the law, has a right to be heard. We either believe in free speech or we don't, it is not a pick and choose menu.

Just as a side note . I can never understand when events like this are scrapped, surely the organisers must have known the level of protest and outrage that would ensue when he was invited ? If you are not going to stick it out why bother ?

Millicent

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

Nope, I said lefties denied free speech. I didn't qualify that as leftie bigots, but that does not make wrong. You just didn't read the posts properly.

No amount of saying 'you were wrong' will change that, my boy. Hand wave all you want.

No, "my boy", people denied the free speech. I've just gone and checked, btw, motivated by Sensibleken's post.

The only people who classified these protesters as "lefties" were the BNP. You'll forgive me if I wait for a more reliable source.

sensibleken

Morlar wrote: »

I can not think of any examples of the right wing suppressing freedom of speech in Ireland or the UK for that matter in recent years.

There may have been some islamic hate speech cleric calling for violence or wiping out a race of people or something like that otherwise no examples spring to mind.

you dont remember the state censorship in ireland then? It was incredibly widespread.

Besides, protesting against him is not suppression. its protest. the philosophical society just gave into it rather than stick to their guns

Millicent

Morlar wrote: »

In a post earlier on this thread which you thanked as a matter of fact :

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74930968&postcount=95

Apologies, you did say that, and I thanked the opinion. You did not tar all lefties and I retract that.

sensibleken

steelcityblues wrote: »

Fascism is defined as a system characterised by ' state control and extreme nationalism'.

How does that not apply to Stalin or Chairman Mao?

no it isnt. that is just one aspect of it. Facism is a complicated political ideology that cannot be defined in one sentence. Neither can communism, capitalism or any other socio-economic system

Stalinism, Maoism, Nazism and Facism were all totalitarian. Stalin was no more a facist than Himmler was a communist.

Johro

orourkeda wrote: »

You tried to use the scammer card. I' suggested that fraud isn't unique to British far right politicians. Surely you are aware that our own political class could teach the british a thing or two about how to pull a stroke.

Besides, the conservatives, lib dem and labour partyies scammed their OWN PEOPLE no so long ago.

So using the scammer card isnt unique to the BNP and using it as a stick to beat the BNP with specifically isnt a runner.

I would agree. I'd say let the BNP be their own stick.

Millicent

Morlar wrote: »

I can not think of any examples of the right wing suppressing freedom of speech in Ireland or the UK for that matter in recent years.

There may have been some islamic hate speech cleric calling for violence or wiping out a race of people or something like that otherwise no examples spring to mind.

Are you kidding? Fianna Fáil banned blasphemy last year.

orourkeda

Johro wrote: »

I would agree. I'd say let the BNP be their own stick.

Indeed. The fraud issue applies to a large number of the political parties in the UK. The BNP cannot be singled out on this issue.

Disagreeing with their ideology is a separate issue entirely.

Mike 1972

Morlar wrote: »

I can not think of any examples of the right wing suppressing freedom of speech in Ireland or the UK for that matter in recent years.

Just as well some of us have rather longer memories then.

Not that one needs to have a particularly long memory mind

KeithAFC wrote: »

He should come up here and talk at the DUP conference coming up. Will be interesting to hear what he has to say.

maygitchell wrote: »

Hed love a bunch of unionists **** passionately over everything he has to say...

maygitchell wrote: »

Much difference between the DUP and BNP anyway?

The same DUP whose MEP refused to take a seat beside BNP MEP's in the European parliament ?