Should Trinity have cancelled the Nick Griffin talk?

Prop Joe

Nick Griffin is a victim of the press,Im no fan of the BNP or NF but his views are not racist.
Griffin has spoke very well of the sheikh and Black community in Britain.His views are anti-Illegal Immigrant.Which there is nothing wrong with..

TheyKnowMyIP

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

If I refused to allow him speak in my home I would not see it as an attack on free speech. Trinity is not much different.

However, it was rather rude to invite him then withdraw the invitation

He has no implicit "right" to speak at Trinity imo. Just like I have no god given "right" to speak here, such is the case in Trinity. Last time I checked, the Constitution didn't mention speaking in Trinity as a right. I could be wrong though.

St.Spodo

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

If I refused to allow him speak in my home I would not see it as an attack on free speech. Trinity is not much different.

However, it was rather rude to invite him then withdraw the invitation

Exactly, he wasn't censored and it wasn't an attack on free speech, he was just uninvited because of the security risk. Plain and simple.

Also, the anti-fascists were within their right to protest against the visit of a man with horrible views. It was essentially an objection to fascism and in this case, his invitation to speak was the casualty.

Fratton Fred

people like Nick Griffin should be allowed to speak and enter into public debate.

That is the best way to show their views to be little more than nasty racist bile.

Nodin

Prop Joe wrote: »

Nick Griffin is a victim of the press,Im no fan of the BNP or NF but his views are not racist.
........

Then why does he want to give grants to "those of foriegn descent" to leave Britain?

Maglight

It's ironic that Nick Griffin's anti-immigration stance will find resonance with a significant number of Irish people who feel the same way. Yet, Britian is the first port of call for many Irish people who move abroad and we always expect to receive a warm welcome from our British cousins. Yet, the anti immigration and Keep Britain British stance of Nick Griffin's party extends to the Irish.

In short, emigration is ok, but immigration is bad. The capacity for hypocrisy on this subject in Ireland constantly amazes me.

Eric Cartman

St.Spodo wrote: »

Exactly, he wasn't censored and it wasn't an attack on free speech, he was just uninvited because of the security risk. Plain and simple.

Also, the anti-fascists were within their right to protest against the visit of a man with horrible views. It was essentially an objection to fascism and in this case, his invitation to speak was the casualty.

the security risk was from the group students against facism who wanted to interrupt (censor) nick griffin and blockade trinity to control access , theyve said a lot of things for nick griffin but none of them that he said himself (propoganda) so basically students Against facism using propoganda, censorship and control..........seems a bit facist to me

TheyKnowMyIP

Isn't this guy a well known Holocaust denier? I just can't take guys like this seriously. He might be taken more seriously if he at least wasn't such a bloodly tool. I mean come on, how can you "deny" a well known historical event? Something fishy imo.

AhSureTisGrand

Elliemental wrote: »

He's a Fascist, not a Socialist.

But fascism overlaps with socialism in many areas. They didn't call it National Socialism for nothing.

Not to mention that the BNP is rather left-wing, economically

laoch na mona

Fratton Fred wrote: »

people like Nick Griffin should be allowed to speak and enter into public debate.

That is the best way to show their views to be little more than nasty racist bile.

exactly censor him and you make him a victim

biko

Merged with recent "Griffin in Trinity" thread.

Galtee

Prop Joe wrote: »

Nick Griffin is a victim of the press,Im no fan of the BNP or NF but his views are not racist.
Griffin has spoke very well of the sheikh and Black community in Britain.His views are anti-Illegal Immigrant.Which there is nothing wrong with..

Not a racist??? Being a member of the national front makes him racist by association considering it's a whites only party which was founded in part by the Racial Preservation Party.

willmunny1990

Just because he has a view of putting Brits first in there own country does'nt make him wrong or a Racist. His views on immigration are logical and just IMO. Hes also anti Islam. These views are not P.C and he gets a lot of unfair criticism for these views and beliefs.

TheyKnowMyIP

willmunny1990 wrote: »

Just because he has a view of putting Brits first in there own country does'nt make him wrong or a Racist. His views on immigration are logical and just IMO. Hes also anti Islam. These views are not P.C and he gets a lot of unfair criticism for these views and beliefs.

This guy has more going agaisnt him than the above. Would you take anybody who denies the Holocaust as a historical event seriously?

MungBean

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

But fascism overlaps with socialism in many areas. They didn't call it National Socialism for nothing.

Not to mention that the BNP is rather left-wing, economically

Oh well much be a socialist then. :rolleyes:

St.Spodo

MungBean wrote: »

Oh well much be a socialist then. :rolleyes:

Economically, the BNP are quite socialist.

willmunny1990

TheyKnowMyIP wrote: »

This guy has more going agaisnt him than the above. Would you take anybody who denies the Holocaust as a historical event seriously?

I understand this and i take your point. But he has some good points on Islam and Immigration, The holocaust thing was ridiculous and a lot of his talk and opinions are but his views on Islam and immigration are worth listening to.

Prop Joe

Galtee wrote: »

Not a racist??? Being a member of the national front makes him racist by association considering it's a whites only party which was founded in part by the Racial Preservation Party.

Griffin has not been a member of the NF since the 80's.
As i have stated im no fan of the BNP but some of there polices i agree with others i dont i like...

deportation of foreign criminals to serve their sentences abroad in their home countries.

make criminals serve their full sentences.

Use electronically tagged “chain gangs” to provide labour for projects such as coastal defences

Introduce automatic prison sentences for all repeat offenders

Make joint custody of children the norm in divorce cases

The removal of unsightly overhead power lines from beauty spots and their burial underground

The banning of the ritual slaughter of animals without pre-stunning, and the sale of such meat

The elimination of the unhealthy, energy intensive and cruel factory farming of livestock

Revitalise the healthcare system by boosting staff and bed numbers

We will see to it that no money is given in foreign aid while our own hospitals are short of beds and the staff to run them.

more emphasis must be placed on healthy living with greater understanding of sickness prevention through physical exercise, a healthier environment and improved diets.

Deport all those who commit crimes and whose original nationality was not British

Workfare, not welfare,

a system of workfare for those in unemployment benefit for more than six months with compulsory work and training in return for decent payment.

laoch na mona

willmunny1990 wrote: »

he has some good points on Islam and Immigration, .

no he doesn't he is a racist ****e

MungBean

St.Spodo wrote: »

Economically, the BNP are quite socialist.

So fascism can be called socialism if a party can be seen to have "socialist" economic policies ?

The BNP is a far right political party, the ideals they hold are far right ideals. Any party can have policies that may resemble that of another political tendency, but thats not what define the party.

Socialism is a broad term that encapsulates a lot but it doesnt encapsulate fascism.

Galtee

Prop Joe wrote: »

Griffin has not been a member of the NF since the 80's.
As i have stated im no fan of the BNP but some of there polices i agree with others i dont i like...

deportation of foreign criminals to serve their sentences abroad in their home countries.

make criminals serve their full sentences.

Use electronically tagged “chain gangs” to provide labour for projects such as coastal defences

Introduce automatic prison sentences for all repeat offenders

Make joint custody of children the norm in divorce cases

The removal of unsightly overhead power lines from beauty spots and their burial underground

The banning of the ritual slaughter of animals without pre-stunning, and the sale of such meat

The elimination of the unhealthy, energy intensive and cruel factory farming of livestock

Revitalise the healthcare system by boosting staff and bed numbers

We will see to it that no money is given in foreign aid while our own hospitals are short of beds and the staff to run them.

more emphasis must be placed on healthy living with greater understanding of sickness prevention through physical exercise, a healthier environment and improved diets.

Deport all those who commit crimes and whose original nationality was not British

Workfare, not welfare,

a system of workfare for those in unemployment benefit for more than six months with compulsory work and training in return for decent payment.

Well, in my opinion, given he has been a member of the NF up until late 80s and is now a member of the BNP (a splinter group of the NF) he's a rascist. Just because someone is rascist doesn't mean they won't have some policies that no one else will relate to/agree with. ie Most political groups will have SOME mainstream policies that appeal to the mass regardless of their core beliefs.

willmunny1990

laoch na mona wrote: »

no he doesn't he is a racist ****e

Really? Just because he speaks out about the dangers of radical islam doesn't make him a racist. If Nick didn't talk about it someone else would and they to would be branded a Racist. Its the same old chestnut from the P.C brigade.

Radical islamists pose a real threat. Its not racist to say so.

laoch na mona

willmunny1990 wrote: »

Really? Just because he speaks out about the dangers of radical islam doesn't make him a racist. If Nick didn't talk about it someone else would and they to would be branded a Racist. Its the same old chestnut from the P.C brigade.

Radical islamists pose a real threat. Its not racist to say so.

but it is racist to kick all foreigners out of the country

Prop Joe

Galtee wrote: »

Well, in my opinion, given he has been a member of the NF up until late 80s and is now a member of the BNP (a splinter group of the NF) he's a rascist.

Incorrect...How can you claim he is a Racist because he was once a member of a Right wing group in his youth??

Joseph Ratzinger was a member of Hitler youth in his teens,Does that make him a racist?? I think Not !!!

I'm sure most people had different political views in there youth than they do nowadays

Prop Joe

laoch na mona wrote: »

but it is racist to kick all foreigners out of the country

Wrong !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is the Illegal Immigrants he wants out,And after all they are there illegally !

Elliemental

OutlawPete wrote: »

Let the man talk I say.

I agree. Let the man talk, and watch as he makes an utter fool of himself. It happens every time; (anyone else remember the Question Time edition he appeared on?).

I support free speech, so voted accordingly.

Eric Cartman

Elliemental wrote: »

I agree. Let the man talk, and watch as he makes an utter fool of himself. It happens every time; (anyone else remember the Question Time edition he appeared on?).

I support free speech, so voted accordingly.

He didnt get a word in on question time, he was set up to be trapped there while he was shouted at and abused by everybody else and left without saying anything of substance and the smug brigade at the show could all sit there feeling like they accomplished something

Elliemental

AhSureTisGrand wrote: »

But fascism overlaps with socialism in many areas. They didn't call it National Socialism for nothing.

Not to mention that the BNP is rather left-wing, economically

I would agree with you that Communism overlaps Fascism in many areas, but Communism (the extreme left), is not Socialism. Socialism is moderate left. I should state, that has always been the way in which the different ideologies were taught to me.

Eric Cartman

Elliemental wrote: »

I agree with you that Communism overlaps Fascism in many areas, but Communism (the extreme left), is not Socialism. Socialism is moderate left. I should state, that has always been the way in which the different ideologies were taught to me.

that may have been the case in the 40s, but with rise in number of small hardline left wing groups like the SWP though socialism in its present form is almost as left wing as communism

Elliemental

Eric Cartman wrote: »

He didnt get a word in on question time, he was set up to be trapped there while he was shouted at and abused by everybody else and left without saying anything of substance and the smug brigade at the show could all sit there feeling like they accomplished something

He spoke often, and frequently. However, he was so flustered, worked up, whatever, that he could barely speak a word. That is not a set up, it is incompetence, and defeat at the hands of much more accomplished opponent.

Eric Cartman

Elliemental wrote: »

He spoke often, and frequently. However, he was so flustered, worked up, whatever, that he could barely speak a word. That is not a set up, it is incompetence, and defeat at the hands of much more accomplished opponent.

you cant in all honesty expect anyone to perform well with that level of abuse, no question time guest has ever been given so much abuse in studio as nick griffin, from the audience and other guests

MungBean

Eric Cartman wrote: »

that may have been the case in the 40s, but with rise in number of small hardline left wing groups like the SWP though socialism in its present form is almost as left wing as communism

Your basing the definition of socialism on the views of small groups like SWP ??

The far left in Ireland is minute. ULA, SF make up the socialist majority in Ireland and they are by no means hardline left wing.

Elliemental

Eric Cartman wrote: »

that may have been the case in the 40s, but with rise in number of small hardline left wing groups like the SWP though socialism in its present form is almost as left wing as communism

Then there has been a swell in the number of Communist splinter groups. That doesn't necessarily lead to a blurring in the boundaries of distinction. For instance, the old Labour Party (UK), would have been "Socialist", but they were certainly no friends of Marx et al.

All parties, in general, seem to be shifting towards the centre. That is a very modern development, too (in the last 15 years, max). But, I fail to see how that affects the classification of a party.

MungBean

Actually if anything socialism has move towards the centre rather than further left. Most socialist now would be or be moving towards being social democrats.

AngeGal

Prop Joe wrote: »

Wrong !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is the Illegal Immigrants he wants out,And after all they are there illegally !

He's a bigot. "There's no such thing as a black Welshman" he claimed a couple of years ago. Anyone who can't see this guy for the racist slimeball he is either hasn't done enough research or has some racist inclinations themselves.

TheyKnowMyIP

Even if he makes some good points, his credibility is eroded by believing the Holocaust was a "Holohoax". David Irving was given a ****ing sentance for misrepresenting historical documents, not to mention being barred entry from a large number of countries for his fraud. This belief throws my opinion of Griffin from "might have a point" to "criminally intolerant". This guy is dangerous.

Prop Joe

AngeGal wrote: »

He's a bigot. "There's no such thing as a black Welshman" he claimed a couple of years ago.

That comment was tongue in cheek i believe after he was rigorously attacked by a journalist who asked him why there were no black members of the BNP from Wales.Maybe not in taste but certainly not racist

Galtee

Prop Joe wrote: »

Incorrect...How can you claim he is a Racist because he was once a member of a Right wing group in his youth??

Joseph Ratzinger was a member of Hitler youth in his teens,Does that make him a racist?? I think Not !!!

I'm sure most people had different political views in there youth than they do nowadays

Because he was a member of a right wing group known to be founded by racist parties and is now a member of another right wing group which happens to be a splinter group of the original right wing group he was a member of.

AngeGal

Prop Joe wrote: »

That comment was tongue in cheek i believe after he was rigorously attacked by a journalist who asked him why there were no black members of the BNP from Wales.Maybe not in taste but certainly not racist

It was not tongue in cheek at all!!!

Kindly explain the following video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLiwSsrN6Sw

Also please explain his reaction when a former member of his party bombed a gay pub,

"The TV footage of dozens of 'gay' demonstrators flaunting their perversion in front of the world's journalists showed just why so many ordinary people find these creatures so repulsive."

The guy is disgusting and his outdated backwards mind should have no place in the 21st century.

Prop Joe

AngeGal wrote: »

It was not tongue in cheek at all!!!

Kindly explain the following video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLiwSsrN6Sw

Also please explain his reaction when a former member of his party bombed a gay pub,

"The TV footage of dozens of 'gay' demonstrators flaunting their perversion in front of the world's journalists showed just why so many ordinary people find these creatures so repulsive."

The guy is disgusting and his outdated backwards mind should have no place in the 21st century.

For the record i am NOT a fan of Nick Griffin or the BNP but i can see in a few years a serious political party once they shed the likes of Griffin..I am not a fan of Griffin but i do find him interesting,His has some great views on certain points but then lets himself down with "Monkey" & Anti-Queer slurs

Nodin

Prop Joe wrote: »

Wrong !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is the Illegal Immigrants he wants out,And after all they are there illegally !

I think not. From the 'indigenous' horses mouth -

To ensure that this does not happen, and that the British people retain their homeland and identity, we call for an immediate halt to all further immigration, the immediate deportation of criminal and illegal immigrants, and the introduction of a system of voluntary resettlement whereby those immigrants who are legally here will be afforded the opportunity to return to their lands of ethnic origin assisted by a generous financial incentives both for individuals and for the countries in question.

http://www.bnp.org.uk/policies/immigration

The above is a policy based on race.

AngeGal

Prop Joe wrote: »

For the record i am NOT a fan of Nick Griffin or the BNP but i can see in a few years a serious political party once they shed the likes of Griffin..I am not a fan of Griffin but i do find him interesting,His has some great views on certain points but then lets himself down with "Monkey" & Anti-Queer slurs

Parties with leaders like Griffin attract young Griffins not sensible and mature people capable of actually contributing. If the BNP is ever in a position of real power then the UK will be in serious trouble. But they won't be so it'll be grand I'd say!

Prop Joe

[B]the introduction of a system of voluntary resettlement whereby those immigrants who are legally here will be afforded the opportunity to return to their lands of ethnic origin assisted by a generous financial incentives both for individuals and for the countries in question.[/B]

So if i was living in England for so long the government would offer me money to move back to Ireland if i wished..Sounds nice

Each nation has the right to maintain its own identity. The right of India to remain Indian, the right of China to remain Chinese, the right of Pakistan to remain Pakistani and the right of Saudi Arabia to remain Saudi does not mean that any of these nations “hate” anybody else.

Prop Joe

AngeGal wrote: »

Parties with leaders like Griffin attract young Griffins not sensible and mature people capable of actually contributing. If the BNP is ever in a position of real power then the UK will be in serious trouble. But they won't be so it'll be grand I'd say!

we thought that about SF

St.Spodo

Racist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04QolIvfQEw

Nodin

Prop Joe wrote: »

[B]the introduction of a system of voluntary resettlement whereby those immigrants who are legally here will be afforded the opportunity to return to their lands of ethnic origin assisted by a generous financial incentives both for individuals and for the countries in question.[/B]

So if i was living in England for so long the government would offer me money to move back to Ireland if i wished..Sounds nice

.

Is that or is that not a policy based on race?

Prop Joe

Nodin wrote: »

Is that or is that not a policy based on race?

No.Its based on ethnic Origin !!

If there was a family of black,Hindu or Muslim's that were Irish they would be classified as ethnically Irish,They wouldn't be defined by there race

Nodin

Prop Joe wrote: »

No.Its based on ethnic Origin !!

If there was a family of black,Hindu or Muslim's that were Irish they would be classified as ethnically Irish,They wouldn't be defined by there race

.....no. That's the exact opposite of what he's saying, ie he states 'British' is defined by ethnicity. I'd suggest re-reading that whole section on the BNP site.

AngeGal

Prop Joe wrote: »

No.Its based on ethnic Origin !!

If there was a family of black,Hindu or Muslim's that were Irish they would be classified as ethnically Irish,They wouldn't be defined by there race

Why are you so intent on defending a guy and a party you claim not to be a fan of? Especially after seeing conclusive proof that the party leader is a racist homophobe.

marcsignal

dlofnep wrote: »

That's precisely why he should be allowed to speak - So we have an opportunity to challenge him. Watch any debate he talks place in - his argument is always systematically torn apart. We had nothing to lose by letting him speak.

What's the chances of him turning up on The Frontline now ?



It worked for David Irving