Martin McGuinness Dev and The big fella

dickwod1

I'm wondering why Martin McGuinness is being witch hunted by the media over his I.R.A past (and it is the PAST) ... He as we all know is now totally for peace.
Eamon de Valera was leader of the 1916 rising and The big fella Michael Collins was his right hand man who carried out lots of murders and got the Brits out, Dev became president and Michael Collins had a barracks named after him after his untimely death ...Not to mention the seven towers in Ballymun named after those executed in Kilmainham / Pearse St. Etc. Etc. If you could have voted for The big fella Michael Collins in 1940 for president (had he not died) I'm sure he would have got 100% of the vote ... Martin McGuinness a modern day hero in my opinion is exactly the same as Dev and The big fella but of our time.

Pat D. Almighty

The Fianna Fail and Fine Gael revisionists have muddied the waters between the 'good old IRA' and the modern 'scum bag IRA'.
When the former started out their campaign, civil rights were fine, voting right were fine, sectarianism was pretty much non existent.
I'm not an IRA apologist and I don't support violence, but the OIRA/PIRA/INLA had much more of a reason for starting an armed struggle than their historical counterparts.

The Scientician

Pat D. Almighty wrote: »

The Fianna Fail and Fine Gael revisionists have muddied the waters between the 'good old IRA' and the modern 'scum bag IRA'.
When the former started out their campaign, civil rights were fine, voting right were fine, sectarianism was pretty much non existent.
I'm not an IRA apologist and I don't support violence, but the OIRA/PIRA/INLA had much more of a reason for starting an armed struggle than their historical counterparts.

Regardless of reason though the Old IRA enjoyed much more widespread support amongst the populace than the modern physical force republicans ever have. The Old IRA actually managed to achieve something too, whereas what exactly has been the benefit of the OIRA/PIRA/INLA campaigns?

I'm sure there are some people in this country who think of McGuinness as a hero and they're welcome to vote for him. Many people think of him as a murderer though, and so won't be voting for him. You can draw historical parralels if you want, but times are different. I think the Unionist élite in the north started the Troubles but republican paramilitaries continued the bloodshed for many years including various attacks on civilians that were nakedly sectarian and callous and did less than zero to advance the cause of Irish unity.

I've no doubt there are elements of the media that have a distinct anti-SF bias (looking at you Sindo!), but the emphasis on Martin is largely because he's the only one of the candidates who was ever actually a leading member of a terrorist organisation.

dickwod1

what exactly has been the benefit of the OIRA/PIRA/INLA campaigns?
To allow catholics have the same human rights and opportunitys as the protestant population

largely because he's the only one of the candidates who was ever actually a leading member of a terrorist organisation.
I'd say freedom fighter, remember bloody sunday? Were those people who marched allowed to freely express themselves in a peaceful demonstration?

The Scientician

dickwod1 wrote: »

what exactly has been the benefit of the OIRA/PIRA/INLA campaigns?
To allow catholics have the same human rights and opportunitys as the protestant population

Massive bomb placed in shopping area

---

> human rights for Catholics.

Explain to me what goes in between the two. How did destruction, murder, mayhem, further the cause of Catholic parity of rights and opportunities in the North?
Why didn't Republicans get involved in Sunningdale?


In the initial phase of the Troubles...

The Provisional IRA's strategy was to use force to cause the collapse of the Northern Ireland administration and to inflict casualties on the British forces such that the British government be forced by public opinion to withdraw from Ireland.

What has any of this got to do with human rights?

dickwod1

[QUOTE=In the initial phase of the Troubles...

Quote:
The Provisional IRA's strategy was to use force to cause the collapse of the Northern Ireland administration and to inflict casualties on the British forces such that the British government be forced by public opinion to withdraw from Ireland.
What has any of this got to do with human rights?[/QUOTE]

This aint from my thread

lugha

dickwod1 wrote: »

He as we all know is now totally for peace.

Er, no boss, we don't know that. We can only be certain that an individual, who previously held democracy in contempt, is now a democrat when constitutional politics fail them, and they accept their fate. If and when it becomes evident that the GFA won't deliver a united Ireland and MMG and his crew accept that, can we know that he is "now totally for peace".

In the meantime we can only hope that this is the case despite some evidence to the contrary.

The Scientician

dickwod1 wrote: »

This aint from my thread

Sorry it's a quote from Wikipedia. I'm just pointing out that securing human rights for Catholics wasn't the aim of the IRA, at least not directly.

dickwod1

lugha wrote: »

Er, no boss, we don't know that.

In the meantime we can only hope that this is the case despite some evidence to the contrary.

Where have you been for the past 13 peaceful years?

pablomakaveli

The voters of the early 20th century had very different opinions to what they were willing to accept about their leaders.

This is 21st century Ireland and a man with a violent and criminal past isnt' as acceptable for a leader as it was 60/70 years ago.

alastair

As far as I'm aware, Dev or Collins didn't preside over a campaign of strapping innocent people to car bombs and forcing them to drive to border points and their death. Maybe that might have impacted on their vote, if they had?

dickwod1

I'm just pointing out that securing human rights for Catholics wasn't the aim of the IRA, at least not directly.

I understand that, but they were oppressed and it was the British government allowing/causing this to happen (no jobs for catholics 2nd class citizens etc.), So by the provos trying to get the Brits out it actually changed things for the better in the 6 counties ... I know thats hard for you to understand but the evidence is there to prove it

alastair

dickwod1 wrote: »

Where have you been for the past 13 peaceful years?

And where is Paul Quinn?

lugha

dickwod1 wrote: »

Where have you been for the past 13 peaceful years?

For much of the time in the last 13 years, 17 years, in fact Sinn Fein have been progressively improving their lot (with the exception of a couple of years in the mid-late 90s when things didn't go so smoothly and they abandoned their ceasefire).

The test of a credentials of a democrat is not what the can achieve through democracy, rather their willingness to accept their fate then they fail to achieve or make progress through democracy. On the only occasions in the last 17 years that Sinn Fein / IRA had to deal with the latter prospect, they reverted to violence. We can only wait and see what they will do if and when their current surge falters. Of course and no doubt, some accept that Sinn Fein are now democrats because the say so. Some of us older folk have this cynical view that you shouldn't just accept as gospel what a politician tells you.

Sunnyisland

lugha wrote: »

Er, no boss, we don't know that. We can only be certain that an individual, who previously held democracy in contempt, is now a democrat when constitutional politics fail them, and they accept their fate. If and when it becomes evident that the GFA won't deliver a united Ireland and MMG and his crew accept that, can we know that he is "now totally for peace".

In the meantime we can only hope that this is the case despite some evidence to the contrary.

IMO we have a lot more to fear from loyalist/unionist violence when the majority of people in a referendum vote for a united Ireland as under the GFA, As there past behaviors and history has shown.

dickwod1

alastair wrote: »

As far as I'm aware, Dev or Collins didn't preside over a campaign of strapping innocent people to car bombs and forcing them to drive to border points and their death. Maybe that might have impacted on their vote, if they had?

Car bombs were not invented then, cars barely were. But they were involved in a campaign of murder and not by traditional warfare but by guerilla means and they had young volunteers doing it for them and many of them were killed.

foggy_lad

Yet another sinn fein Hail Mary thread

lugha

realies wrote: »

IMO we have a lot more to fear from loyalist/unionist violence when the majority of people in a referendum vote for a united Ireland as under the GFA, As there past behaviors and history has shown.

I think that is a real possibility, if Northern nationalists, when a referendum comes, do vote for a united Ireland. But I don't think they will.

And Sinn Fein / PIRA supporters have no authority to be lecturing anyone on their shortcomings with respect to democracy.

Sunnyisland

foggy_lad wrote: »

Yet another sinn fein Hail Mary thread

If you don't like the threads don't post in them, its not as if someone has a gun to your head

Peep O'Day

alastair wrote: »

As far as I'm aware, Dev or Collins didn't preside over a campaign of strapping innocent people to car bombs and forcing them to drive to border points and their death. Maybe that might have impacted on their vote, if they had?

No what Collins did was order the murder of 2 Catholic girls due to their romantic involvement with british soldiers.... freedom fighter or terrorist you say? :rolleyes:

Revisionism truly is a great evil

The Scientician

dickwod1 wrote: »

Car bombs were not invented then, cars barely were. But they were involved in a campaign of murder and not by traditional warfare but by guerilla means and they had young volunteers doing it for them and many of them were killed.

He's talking about the Provos: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_bomb

Sunnyisland

lugha wrote: »

I think that is a real possibility, if Northern nationalists, when a referendum comes, do vote for a united Ireland. But I don't think they will.

And Sinn Fein / PIRA supporters have no authority to be lecturing anyone on their shortcomings with respect to democracy.

I have not lectured anybody on anything.

dickwod1

alastair wrote: »

And where is Paul Quinn?

Hey things that the IRA done make me sick too ... Paul Quinn ,The Guilford bomings and alot of other things I dont agree with I'm not trying to say everything they done was right and its been totally peaceful ever since the peace deal

What im trying to do is compare Martin McGuinness with Dev and the big fella
things they done were nasty too but in everybodys eyes there heros

Sunnyisland

alastair wrote: »

As far as I'm aware, Dev or Collins didn't preside over a campaign of strapping innocent people to car bombs and forcing them to drive to border points and their death. Maybe that might have impacted on their vote, if they had?

Why don't you check out the innocents killed in the civil war & the war of independence and of course not forgetting 1916.While your there check out the ethnic cleansing of protestant people from the the new free state,makes very interesting reading .

KELTICKNIGHTT

foggy_lad wrote: »

Yet another sinn fein Hail Mary thread

sure is
not a surprise
probably see more as they desperate to get votes for poor marty
funny how it is that other canidates don't have there supporters on forum looking for votes but then again,,,,,Maybe not

anyone follow rugby

dickwod1

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

sure is
not a surprise
probably see more as they desperate to get votes for poor marty
funny how it is that other canidates don't have there supporters on forum looking for votes but then again,,,,,Maybe not

anyone follow rugby

lol
I am 35 from dublin been to newry a few times last year shopping NEVER been a member of any political party or been inside any partys office or meeting
I have voted everytime i had the oppertunity to do so
I did watch the news when i was growing up
There is a presidental race on at the mo

Paparazzo

foggy_lad wrote: »

Yet another sinn fein Hail Mary thread

Although, made the cardinal sin of leaving out "Mandela" somewhere in the post.

KELTICKNIGHTT

dickwod1 wrote: »

lol
I am 35 from dublin been to newry a few times last year shopping NEVER been a member of any political party or been inside any partys office or meeting
I have voted everytime i had the oppertunity to do so
I did watch the news when i was growing up
There is a presidental race on at the mo

and so you decided too vote for a ex-terrorist ,who is toxic ,who would damage the country ,, hmm
to each there own
there's 2 people for sure I'M not voting for
marty mcguinness
and
dana

The referendum 2011 Ireland is more important than the candidates

Einhard

dickwod1 wrote: »

Car bombs were not invented then, cars barely were. But they were involved in a campaign of murder and not by traditional warfare but by guerilla means and they had young volunteers doing it for them and many of them were killed.

Oh for God's sake, this is getting tedious. Either SF supporters are woefully uninformed about their own history, or they are masters at distraction and obfuscation. The difference between MMG et al and Collins et al, is that the latter didn't deliberately target civilians. The young lads you refer to in the above post were given a choice. They didn;t have to accept it. The young lads murdered by the IRA in Warrington didn't get a choice. Ok? Is that clear enough for you? Can we let this be the end of it? Because it's tiresome responding to the same predictable talking points day in and day out.

dickwod1

KELTICKNIGHTT wrote: »

and so you decided too vote for a ex-terrorist ,who is toxic ,who would damage the country ,, hmm
to each there own
there's 2 people for sure I'M not voting for
marty mcguinness
and
dana

Ex terrorist to you freedom fighter to me
Dana defo on the same level

KELTICKNIGHTT

dickwod1 wrote: »

Ex terrorist to you freedom fighter to me
Dana defo on the same level

so your not connected to sinn fein

sure
that comment suggest otherwise
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