Why don't we have free healthcare?

JuliusCaesar

pbowenroe wrote: »

because once the average punter on the street finds out that 'free healthcare' means a tax increase, he'll say ''no fukin way"

On the contrary. I worked in the NHS during the Thatcher years and there were massive demonstrations of people saying, we'd rather have the NHS and pay more in tax, than a tax reduction and a lessening of free healthcare.

Perhaps those who are against 'socialised' health are also against 'socialised' education?

LordSutch

Hank_Jones wrote: »

Why don't we have free healthcare?

Because we left the UK in 1922, simples )

Nodin

UsernameInUse wrote: »

Provide one example where socialised/government medicine has worked?

Ronnie...Thou Hast Returned!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

coonecb1

There's a simple reason why the market cannot provide healthcare cheaply and efficiently.

It's because the primary objective for a healthcare company is to make money. Taking care of patients is a means of making money.

However, there is a conflict of interest where, for instance a patient doesn't need a millions treatments when a simple one will do. In that instance, the company is torn between trying to make money, and trying to do right by the patient.

RichieC

It galls certain sections of society that they should have to fund squalid hospitals and ****ty GP's when they still have to go out and spend a fortune on top of the line health insurance.

Oh and foreigners...

At least you wont be left on the streets to die like you would in the states.

mise_me_fein3

Nothing is "FREE". The money to pay from this is not a magic treasure chest. It's taxpayers money If you're working do you want to pay for other people, if not, be happy you're in a society that gives you a far too high dole payment when the country is broke. If anyone really really felt that strongly about changing the Health situation...run for election and convince others.

PaulKK

Evaex wrote: »

Should the GP have paid for your loss of earnings too ? Or are you just being a miserable old cnut like the rest of the people who bltch and moan about paying for healthcare, yet think nothing of dropping €100 euro on a night out.

That's a pretty ignorant post.

How do you know how much the OP spends on a night out? I personally don't know anyone spending that kind of money on a night out these days.

Do you think its fair that the care doc charged 60e for 10 mins work and referred the patient to her GP the following day for another 50e?

I think its ridiculous that it can easily cost a days wages just to go to the doctor and pick up a couple items on a prescription when you are ill.

westendgirlie

mise_me_fein3 wrote: »

Nothing is "FREE". The money to pay from this is not a magic treasure chest. It's taxpayers money If you're working do you want to pay for other people, if not, be happy you're in a society that gives you a far too high dole payment when the country is broke. If anyone really really felt that strongly about changing the Health situation...run for election and convince others.

I'm a taxpayer and yes, I want to pay into a health system that benefits all.

I can't afford private healthcare. I can't afford to visit the doctor or dentist unless it's a dire emergency. One visit costs at least half of my family grocery bill. But I could afford a reasonable increase in PRSI to cover my medical needs.

mise_me_fein3

westendgirlie wrote: »

I'm a taxpayer and yes, I want to pay into a health system that benefits all.

I can't afford private healthcare. I can't afford to visit the doctor or dentist unless it's a dire emergency. One visit costs at least half of my family grocery bill. But I could afford a reasonable increase in PRSI to cover my medical needs.

So what's wrong here then? The government have inflated the price of visiting the doctor so all those on the medical cards get it for free...and who is paying for that? Probably you.

We can't afford free health. The price would come down for the ordinary guy not on the medical card who avoids the doctor if the government stopped using taxpayers money for people on the medical card who seem to visit the doctor even if they've got a sore thumb.

If everyone is happy to pay as much tax as they do in Denmark, then we can have it but no doubt you all would be whinging about tax increases then.

TheyKnowMyIP

Just to be clear. ER departments operate on the basis of Triage. As should be the case. No amount of money will take you further up the queue. Fair.

opinion guy

sheesh wrote: »

Its cheap for the tax payer obviously!!!!

Not really given that he has to pay his health insurance. Money comes out of his pocket one way or another. Its just that with private systems a cut of it goes to pay wages of insurance people who add nothing to his care and to keep shareholders who also add nothing to his care.

UsernameInUse wrote: »

Provide one example where socialised/government medicine has worked?

Sweden, France, UK, Cuba, Canada.
Still waiting for your examples of private healthcare working

mise_me_fein3

opinion guy wrote: »

Not really given that he has to pay his health insurance. Money comes out of his pocket one way or another. Its just that with private systems a cut of it goes to pay wages of insurance people who add nothing to his care and to keep shareholders who also add nothing to his care.



Sweden, France, UK, Cuba, Canada.
Still waiting for your examples of private healthcare working

None of this is rocket science. Are we happy to pay more tax...a lot more tax just to get the government to sort out the health service?

I do not think they are managing it well, so I would prefer they go out of the whole health thing completely.

Would you give more money to someone who was managing the money you were giving them badly?

UsernameInUse

opinion guy wrote: »

Not really given that he has to pay his health insurance. Money comes out of his pocket one way or another. Its just that with private systems a cut of it goes to pay wages of insurance people who add nothing to his care and to keep shareholders who also add nothing to his care.



Sweden, France, UK, Cuba, Canada.
Still waiting for your examples of private healthcare working

No, I'm still waiting for your examples.

Have you ever thought that perhaps people don't want to pay those massive sums for those systems you've mentioned? For crying out loud, having a French healthcare system may be your wet socialist dream, but it certainly isn't the rest of the countries. Thanks for mentioning Cuba though - now we all know you're a loony lefty, totally discredited. :rolleyes:

Reamer Fanny

I blame Fianna Fail rabble rabble rabble

opinion guy

UsernameInUse wrote: »

No, I'm still waiting for your examples.

Have you ever thought that perhaps people don't want to pay those massive sums for those systems you've mentioned? For crying out loud, having a French healthcare system may be your wet socialist dream, but it certainly isn't the rest of the countries. Thanks for mentioning Cuba though - now we all know you're a loony lefty, totally discredited. :rolleyes:

So you dismiss my examples then acknowledge them in other regards ? Are you a troll or simply a strawman artist ? And still no example from you. One of us has been totally discredited here alright but it ain't me. I'm done with this. Good day to you.

westendgirlie

westendgirlie wrote: »

I'm a taxpayer and yes, I want to pay into a health system that benefits all.

I can't afford private healthcare. I can't afford to visit the doctor or dentist unless it's a dire emergency. One visit costs at least half of my family grocery bill. But I could afford a reasonable increase in PRSI to cover my medical needs.

Same here. I have severe ADHD which requires regular GP/consultant visits, tests and prescriptions. These are not cheap and my health insurance covers almost none of it.

UsernameInUse wrote:

Have you ever thought that perhaps people don't want to pay those massive sums for those systems you've mentioned? For crying out loud, having a French healthcare system may be your wet socialist dream, but it certainly isn't the rest of the countries. Thanks for mentioning Cuba though - now we all know you're a loony lefty, totally discredited.

Well done with the logical fallacy. I'm not aware of any successful and sustainable private health system.

hooradiation

UsernameInUse wrote: »

I say abolish all license of practitioners. Allow the market to work. The poor and sick will be greatly benefited. It's sick what these people are engaged in.

hahahaha
get out.

Scanlas The 2nd

For those demanding free healthcare how about you train as a doctor for 7 years and then give your services for free to whoever wants them.

mise_me_fein3

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

For those demanding free healthcare how about you train as a doctor for 7 years and then give your services for free to whoever wants them.

They are demanding it from taxpayers not the doctors.

I'm pretty sure the doctors get sorted for their 7 years with regard to their salary.

DublinWriter

Hank_Jones wrote: »

I look at the UK and how they introduced free healthcare after the second World War, when they had almost nothing,
and it leaves me wondering why Ireland, with all the resources we had during the celtic tiger era, didn't manage to fix the health care in this country.

We used to have free healthcare in this country until the late 80's/early 90's when A&E and GP visits in the public healthcare sector started to be billed directly.

I think public GP visits started to be billed at either £5 or £10, many thought it would be the thin end of the wedge at the time, which it was.

OP - also google the 'Mother and Child Bill' - interesting reading.

Scanlas The 2nd

mise_me_fein3 wrote: »

They are demanding it from taxpayers not the doctors.

I'm pretty sure the doctors get sorted for their 7 years with regard to their salary.

If these people want free healthcare so much get qualified and provide it for free to show they are serious about it.

psychward

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

If these people want free healthcare so much get qualified and provide it for free to show they are serious about it.

or we could just cut doctors salaries until everybody can afford them.

stovelid

Because the right of people to have cushy publicly-funded jobs is more important than efficiency or public service.

mise_me_fein3

stovelid wrote: »

Because the right of people to have cushy publicly-funded jobs is more important than efficiency or public service.

Public servants are always less efficient than their private counterparts. These days it is unrealistic to pull completely out of health for the government but they seem to be merely going through the motions.

They actually stop the regular person from going because the prices are so high, meanwhile medical card users.....

When people say "Free", do they mean other people paying for their healthcare through tax while they stay on the dole?

opinion guy

mise_me_fein3 wrote: »

Public servants are always less efficient than their private counterparts.

Based on what ?
Prove this.
I'm getting sick of this being repeated as nausea without any quantification behind it. And in this thread at least, its completely obvious that the people saying this have not got one clue about healthcare not the implications of privatizing it. Its always just spouted out as a mantra without any shred of scrutiny in its application to healthcare.

psychward

opinion guy wrote: »

Based on what ?
Prove this.
I'm getting sick of this being repeated as nausea without any quantification behind it. And in this thread at least, its completely obvious that the people saying this have not got one clue about healthcare not the implications of privatizing it. Its always just spouted out as a mantra without any shred of scrutiny in its application to healthcare.

Employees of the state get more than their fair share due to the weakness and lack of principle in politicians. One example is the Banks. In a normal private company which is insolvent and bankrupt when you are laid off you count yourself lucky to get statutory redundancy. Not so in the banks apparently.
Everything the State touches gets hijacked and ruined by ''special interests'' with their snouts in the trough.

mise_me_fein3

opinion guy wrote: »

Based on what ?
Prove this.
I'm getting sick of this being repeated as nausea without any quantification behind it. And in this thread at least, its completely obvious that the people saying this have not got one clue about healthcare not the implications of privatizing it. Its always just spouted out as a mantra without any shred of scrutiny in its application to healthcare.

Based on this:

If you're a private operator and you fail...you lose your job/business/go bust...if you're public, you don't lose your job.

Public sector inflated wages are one of the major reason Europe's economies are messed up. Where do you think we will get the money for the FREE health in 20 years? Will we keep borrowing to mess things up for the next generation?

opinion guy

psychward wrote: »

Employees of the state get more than their fair share due to the weakness and lack of principle in politicians. One example is the Banks. In a normal private company which is insolvent and bankrupt when you are laid off you count yourself lucky to get statutory redundancy. Not so in the banks apparently.
Everything the State touches gets hijacked and ruined by ''special interests'' with their snouts in the trough.

Banks employees are private employees not public.

mise_me_fein3 wrote: »

Based on this:

If you're a private operator and you fail...you lose your job/business/go bust...if you're public, you don't lose your job.

Public sector inflated wages are one of the major reason Europe's economies are messed up. Where do you think we will get the money for the FREE health in 20 years? Will we keep borrowing to mess things up for the next generation?

See what people like you fail to comprehend is that being a private operator and "failing" does not relate to the quality of healthcare delivered. IF anything, by your own definition being a private operator and being successful = delivering poor all round healthcare. This is because failing as you have put it = going broke. Healthcare IS a loss making enterprise whatever way you put it. Elements of healthcare are profit-making, but as a whole it is lossmaking - by defintion. Competition ONLY breeds financial efficiency - it does not breed overall healthcare efficiency. Therefore private healthcare may be a financial success, but that does not equal a healthcare success. And vice-versa. The provision of health care needs to be divorced from the generation of profit. End of.

silverharp

i want a free car, free flights and lollipops, its a right, shouldnt have to pay for em

Penny Dreadful

stovelid wrote: »

Because the right of people to have cushy publicly-funded jobs is more important than efficiency or public service.

Being a doctor is not a cushy job.

Scanlas The 2nd

psychward wrote: »

or we could just cut doctors salaries until everybody can afford them.

Then we won't have any doctors, why train for years when you could earn the same salary in some other job.

You're living in fantasy land that is quite common amongst socialists. You need to think about the consequences and effects that take place in reality not some idea of eutopia that is impossible to create. A society needs to be built efficiently and wisely around human nature. People are generally selfish and seek to advance their own interests. Cutting what doctors are allowed to charge would reduce the incentice for potential doctors to put the effort in to becoming qualified.

Chuck Stone

opinion guy wrote: »

Competition ONLY breeds financial efficiency - it does not breed overall healthcare efficiency. Therefore private healthcare may be a financial success, but that does not equal a healthcare success.

Competition creates financial efficiency but not financial efficiency alone. If a health manager could let go 10 bureaucrats whose wages amounted to say €1m PA total they could then divert that €1 million to heart surgery so that queues would shorten and lives would be saved.

No?

Chuck Stone

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Then we won't have any doctors, why train for years when you could earn the same salary in some other job.

Is that not a bit alarmist?

Don't we have some the highest paid health workers in the world?

Why don't we qualify more doctors and create new routes for people already working in healthcare to become doctors?

texidub

If wages fell we would still have doctors. Not everyone is motivated by greed.

In fact, we would be better off getting rid of those who are in medicine to make money (--they're more likely to cock up an operation thinking about their investments whereas other surgeons will be focused on the job at hand ).

That doesn't mean underpay medical staff, but it certainly means stop paying inflated wages out of the public purse.

Seems to crop up again and again and again in every aspect of Irish life: if you are totally unhelpful and contribute nothing to society... you'll be looked after very, very well.

If you are inefficient, middle-management in the public sector, you'll be looked after very, very well.

If you are a criminal banker or developer, you won't suffer any consequence for dragging the country to its knees. If you;re a NAMA developer the government will PAY you for your crimes.

The entire Irish economy is inflated and unrealistic and the sense of entitlement is UNREAL from every portion of society. And yes, I include private sector wages in all this.

It's like effin' la-la-land. We don't reward excellence!!

(I exclude people who can't work from the above. Without question we should take care of people with physical and intellectual disabilities to the *highest* level possible.)

BOHtox

I'm not bothered reading through this thread but it's because there's no such thing are "free healthcare". Someone has to pay for it. Rather than paying for it when you use it you pay for it through your tax.

texidub

BOHtox, you (not just you, mind) seem to be taking the question very literally. Obviously it means why isn't healthcare free to those who need it when they need it. We all know somebody has to pay.

It's not free because there are too many vested interests in keeping it the way it is. It's also because the country is so small that those who could change things overnight (the politicians) don't want to offend the representatives of professional interest groups who drink in the same bars, live in the same neighbourhoods, and have the same low standards (in terms of performance and social conscience) that characterize Irish public life. (Too busy being respectable to achieve excellence, might be another way of looking at this malaise.)

seanmc1980

Kevin Duffy wrote: »

If I ever get sick, I'm gonna be the first person ever to defect by getting onto a plane at Shannon to go here .

very interesting, you've been watching biased michael moore films again, have a look at what the local cubans have to endure and tell me Cuban has the best health care system in the world

http://www.therealcuba.com/Page10.htm

BOHtox

texidub wrote: »

BOHtox, you (not just you, mind) seem to be taking the question very literally. Obviously it means why isn't healthcare free to those who need it when they need it. We all know somebody has to pay.

It's not free because there are too many vested interests in keeping it the way it is. It's also because the country is so small that those who could change things overnight (the politicians) don't want to offend the representatives of professional interest groups who drink in the same bars, live in the same neighbourhoods, and have the same low standards (in terms of performance and social conscience) that characterize Irish public life. (Too busy being respectable to achieve excellence, might be another way of looking at this malaise.)

You may not pay for it when you need it but you will pay for it when you don't. Someone like me who's probably only been in a hospital once or twice in his life, apart from birth, should not be paying for the healthcare of someone who would abuse that system by going whenever they have indigestion

psychward

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

You're living in fantasy land that is quite common amongst socialists.

A sign of a persecution complex to accuse those who think doctors are overpaid of being delusional commies. It would just be as reasonable by your leap of faith standards to accuse me of being a ''selfish capitalist pig'' since I want doctors to enjoy some austerity, become more efficient and give the consumer more value for money just like everyone else has to in non protected sectors

Mazeire

Look, bottom line is that if I get appendicitis tonight and have to go to James, I will get seen and attended to regardless of wheather I have VHI noy. Yes fine I will get billed €2000 in a months time but generally you cam work a payment plan out with them.

If I was in the states and didn't have health insurance with an approved insurer they would leave me to die outside the front door.

I'll take option A thanks.

Suryavarman

Mazeire wrote: »

Look, bottom line is that if I get appendicitis tonight and have to go to James, I will get seen and attended to regardless of wheather I have VHI noy. Yes fine I will get billed €2000 in a months time but generally you cam work a payment plan out with them.

If I was in the states and didn't have health insurance with an approved insurer they would leave me to die outside the front door.

I'll take option A thanks.

In the US hospitals have to treat emergencies. So not only would you get treated but you receive the best quality of care on the planet.

psychward

Suryavarman wrote: »

In the US hospitals have to treat emergencies. So not only would you get treated but you receive the best quality of care on the planet.

I was thinking that too. So you can get the best treatment then when the huge bill arrives you can perhaps apply for bankruptcy and be debt free in a year or so ?

Paddy Samurai

Because there is too much money to be made out of private healthcare.
If the public healthcare worked no one would pay for private .
One example.........consultants in the Public system also work in the private,and its not really in their interest that the public system works.

galwayrush

How on earth could we be expected to have money for free health care when there are roads in N.I. that need our money.:rolleyes:

minidazzler

tempura wrote: »

Had a discussion with my doctor recently while handing over my 50 quid for birth control prescripition. :eek:

Asked him why i had to pay so much to just get a prescripition.

Apparently he only gets about 5 euro per medical card patient therefore he has to make his money somewhere hence the huge charges to non medical card holders.

Don't know how much truth is in that though.

Also just to add, this is not a slur against med card holders.

Your doctor lied to you, they don't only get 5 euro per medical card patient. And he doesn't HAVE to charge you that much to get a prescription filled out, just think, if 10 girls go in that day for a script to be written that's 500 euro, he might declare 350.

southsiderosie

Mazeire wrote: »

Look, bottom line is that if I get appendicitis tonight and have to go to James, I will get seen and attended to regardless of wheather I have VHI noy. Yes fine I will get billed €2000 in a months time but generally you cam work a payment plan out with them.

If I was in the states and didn't have health insurance with an approved insurer they would leave me to die outside the front door.

I'll take option A thanks.

If you don't have insurance, Option A is what would happen in the US, except your bill would be something like $45,000.

tightropetom

minidazzler wrote: »

Your doctor lied to you, they don't only get 5 euro per medical card patient. And he doesn't HAVE to charge you that much to get a prescription filled out

So how much DO they get per patient? You can't just make a bold statement like that without qualifying it. Give us a figure and a source for it.

And anyway, you're not just getting a prescription for birth control, they have to look into risk factors associated with the pill and make sure you are suitable for it. Are we not paying for the expertise too?

Just sayin like... Surely there's more to it than just signing a bit of paper.

mise_me_fein3

opinion guy wrote: »

Banks employees are private employees not public.



See what people like you fail to comprehend is that being a private operator and "failing" does not relate to the quality of healthcare delivered. IF anything, by your own definition being a private operator and being successful = delivering poor all round healthcare. This is because failing as you have put it = going broke. Healthcare IS a loss making enterprise whatever way you put it. Elements of healthcare are profit-making, but as a whole it is lossmaking - by defintion. Competition ONLY breeds financial efficiency - it does not breed overall healthcare efficiency. Therefore private healthcare may be a financial success, but that does not equal a healthcare success. And vice-versa. The provision of health care needs to be divorced from the generation of profit. End of.

Ah that's good, tell it to the rest of us who can't afford to go to the doctor because government involvement has meant medical card users have jacked up the price.

I have managed not to need any help from the government so far and I've seen neighbours visiting the doctor on an almost weekly basis just because they get it free. If it's gonna be free cut the dole payment and use the money so everyone gets the same treatment.

Anyway we're broke at the moment.....find me the doctors that will work for free in the future cause Ireland won't be able to keep decent ones.

opinion guy

mise_me_fein3 wrote: »

Ah that's good, tell it to the rest of us who can't afford to go to the doctor because government involvement has meant medical card users have jacked up the price.

I have managed not to need any help from the government so far and I've seen neighbours visiting the doctor on an almost weekly basis just because they get it free. If it's gonna be free cut the dole payment and use the money so everyone gets the same treatment.

Anyway we're broke at the moment.....find me the doctors that will work for free in the future cause Ireland won't be able to keep decent ones.

People abusing the system is a separate issue. Personally I dont;' believe there should be totally free health care. I think that along with a universal health care type dealy there should be some nominal charge to visit the GP - be it 10-20 euro or whatever. Just enough to stop people abusing the system.


You won't find doctors (or anyone else for that matter) willing to work for free. And if you did - would you want that doctor treating you ? If you want the decent ones to stay in this ****e system that abuses them you ahve two choices -fix the system, stop abusing your staff or pay them a **** load to compensate them for the abuse. Only way you get them to stay. Personally i think fixing the system and stop abusing your staff might be the way to go, but do you think anyone ever listens to me ?

UsernameInUse

You people have been told to think this is the only way. It's not.

Why must all the doctors be on one side of the room to the rest of us? If you got rid of the licensing laws and regulations, you'd have Free Market healthcare - meaning, one doctor from across the room yells out that he'll treat you for €1000, then another yells out that he'll do it for €500. Then the two look at each other and start beating the **** outta each other for your money. Meanwhile, another group of doctors step forward and tell you that they'll do it for €100 which includes a comfortable financial plan where you pay back €1 a week if you so wish.

Christ....some people are propping up this scam we can healthcare.