Why don't we have free healthcare?

A Primal Nut

Hank_Jones wrote: »

Healthcare is something that I often think about, generally about how overpriced it is in this country and how,
as I have become older, now consider trips to the doctor to generally be a waste of money.

I look at the UK and how they introduced free healthcare after the second World War, when they had almost nothing,
and it leaves me wondering why Ireland, with all the resources we had during the celtic tiger era, didn't manage to fix the health care in this country.

I think that healthcare should be a right, not something that is properly available to only a select few.

Someday, hopefully, our healthcare system will be able to compare to that of the British healthcare system in 1944...

Healthcare is not free in the UK. It's paid for through their tax which comes out of their salary, vat, etc.

Unless Doctors wake up one day and decide to work for free there will be never be free healthcare anywhere.

Private Healthcare is around 1000/year, it's not a whole lot when you consider how important it is, and will seem very cheap if you or a family member ever does get very sick.

Most people I know easily spend that on cigarettes and alcohol every year and think nothing of it - suddenly they are in poverty when it comes to healthcare for them and their children. And then they are complaining about being on trolleys.

Tiocfaidh Armani

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Private Healthcare is around 1000/year, it's not a whole lot when you consider how important it is, and will seem very cheap if you or a family member ever does get very sick.

I work for a private healthcare company and for you and your family it certainly isn't £1k a year.

The UK NHS system is the best. You pay your tax and then it's free at the point of service. No worry and no hassle and then you get rid of the cirucs that is the HSE and implement a body that can run a health service.

SleepDoc

Ray Palmer wrote: »

We need to restrict the amount of doctor college places available for sale is the first thing. Then we need to increase the number of positions.

Then contractually tie the doctors to the irish health system. Increase the men in medicine adn ultimately break the doctors union

Yeah, if you had a clue about medicine you might know that the dotor's union is not work breaking.

"Contractually tie the doctors to the irish health system".

That would be nice. How about a permanent contract,in the same location, with proper training, support and a guaranteed consultancy at the end of specialist training? Some of us might stay.

DublinWriter

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

I work for a private healthcare company and for you and your family it certainly isn't £1k a year.

Paying about €2,500 for myself and the missus, our one and a half year old son went free on the policy because I was switching insurers and because he was under 2 years of age. I expect to be paying €3K+ on next renewal.

I don't get any tax back from this, we still have to pay for GP visits (€60 a pop) and some of my wife's inhalers cost €70 each and my anti blood-pressure tablets are about a tenner a month.

Needless to say we are getting most of our meds in Newry now, it works out about 50% cheaper.

Tiocfaidh Armani

DublinWriter wrote: »

Paying about €2,500 for myself and the missus, our one and a half year old son went free on the policy because I was switching insurers and because he was under 2 years of age. I expect to be paying €3K+ on next renewal.

I don't get any tax back from this, we still have to pay for GP visits (€60 a pop) and some of my wife's inhalers cost €70 each and my anti blood-pressure tablets are about a tenner a month.

Needless to say we are getting most of our meds in Newry now, it works out about 50% cheaper.

That's Ireland mate, I'm talking about the UK. It certainly is not £1k a year. But that highlights it's the same in Ireland and you're getting a terrible return for your money by the sounds of it. Is it really worth having when it sounds like you're just getting hospital treatment, which you would probably get the same in the regular state health care system?

UsernameInUse

AH is a sympathetic left forum. Not a chance in hell this would have come this far over on the politics board nevermind P.ie - the lefties would be eaten alive. The fact is, when government get involved, prices soar. Take Obamacare for example. Someone said to me recently, "why do Americans not like free healthcare...are they stupid?".

No, they're not stupid - they're a hell of a lot smarter than us. Consider this: one left leaning individual decides that everyone should be given "free" healthcare. Now, they draw up legislation relating to this. So, what happens next? The lobbyists line up to get the big government contract bonanza's. Government, being inherently corrupt, delegates the contracts to corporations, thus securing and protecting absolute monopolies. And all of this, at the expense of the taxpayers. The people going out, earning a wage and getting their money taken away from them to give to corporations. It's immoral and what is even more pathetic is that there are people on here so desperately defending them. Shame on you.

If you really want great quality healthcare at minuscule prices, let the market work. Why are we protecting these doctors and corporations? Let them fight each other.

UsernameInUse

UsernameInUse wrote: »

AH is a sympathetic left forum. Not a chance in hell this would have come this far over on the politics board nevermind P.ie - the lefties would be eaten alive. The fact is, when government get involved, prices soar. Take Obamacare for example. Someone said to me recently, "why do Americans not like free healthcare...are they stupid?".

No, they're not stupid - they're a hell of a lot smarter than us. Consider this: one left leaning individual decides that everyone should be given "free" healthcare. Now, they draw up legislation relating to this. So, what happens next? The lobbyists line up to get the big government contract bonanza's. Government, being inherently corrupt, delegates the contracts to corporations, thus securing and protecting absolute monopolies. And all of this, at the expense of the taxpayers. The people going out, earning a wage and getting their money taken away from them to give to corporations. It's immoral and what is even more pathetic is that there are people on here so desperately defending them. Shame on you.

If you really want great quality healthcare at minuscule prices, let the market work. Why are we protecting these doctors and corporations? Let them fight each other.

What you are describing is not a publicly run health system, but private companies contracted by the government to provide healthcare, so that's a complete strawman.

Privatisation works well for some things, healthcare is not one of them. The perogative of private companies is to maximise their profits. As a result of this they will look for any excuse to avoid treating complex and time consuming cases and focus instead on procedures that have a high throughput of patients (e.g. laporscopic cholecystectomy).

I simply cannot fathom how anyone can hold up the U.S. system as some sort of example. They pay the most per capita in the world and in return recieve very average performance of their health system. All of the best health systems (France, Canada, UK) are 100% publicly owned and operated.

Tiocfaidh Armani

UsernameInUse wrote: »

AH is a sympathetic left forum. Not a chance in hell this would have come this far over on the politics board nevermind P.ie - the lefties would be eaten alive. The fact is, when government get involved, prices soar. Take Obamacare for example. Someone said to me recently, "why do Americans not like free healthcare...are they stupid?".

Obamacare has not been been implemented yet and won't be for some years, so blaming that for already rising prices is laughable. :pac:

Health care costs soar when government gets involved? The USA the only industrialised nation without nationalised health care and more than treble the price of the second most expensive country in the world but this fella is arguing nationalised health care makes it more expensive.

It's not adding up there buddy and bear in mind I work for a private health care company, one of the biggest in the world with a US corporate division so bring it on!

K-9

DublinWriter wrote: »

Paying about €2,500 for myself and the missus, our one and a half year old son went free on the policy because I was switching insurers and because he was under 2 years of age. I expect to be paying €3K+ on next renewal.

I don't get any tax back from this, we still have to pay for GP visits (€60 a pop) and some of my wife's inhalers cost €70 each and my anti blood-pressure tablets are about a tenner a month.

Needless to say we are getting most of our meds in Newry now, it works out about 50% cheaper.

Everybody gets tax back on Health Insurance paid, you get it at source though, i.e. it is paid to the VHI etc. and you pay the Net amount.

There is very little benefit for having Health Insurance for A&E services in smaller regional hospitals, as far as I can see. People are treated on a needs basis and it's very hard to get a private room.

Ray Palmer

Deleted User wrote: »

I know, I was just going to point out the same.

It's rare to see such an extreme combination of strongly held opinion and complete lack of knowledge of the issues at hand.

Don't mind me I only worked with two of the leading health insurance companies in the country and only know what the charges are and how they apply.

DublinWriter

UsernameInUse wrote: »

If you really want great quality healthcare at minuscule prices, let the market work.

Doesn't work - the market will always cherry pick the most profitable part of the overall service (typically elective procedures) and shy away from vital services such as A&E and Oncology.

It's a similar dynamic to public transport.

Going laissez-faire with market forces is an approach best employed for coffee-shops and not vital social infrastructure.

psychward

DublinWriter wrote: »

Going laissez-faire with market forces is an approach best employed for coffee-shops and not vital social infrastructure.

coffee isn't really that cheap either. I think that's another area with a huge markup considering what a bag of coffee beans anecdotally cost to buy from some farmer in the third world.

Ray Palmer

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Don't mind me I only worked with two of the leading health insurance companies in the country and only know what the charges are and how they apply.

You said the doctors' union needs to be broken.

Which union, and why?

Chuck Stone

hooradiation wrote: »

So, in the absence of government intervention sociopathic corporations would pass these 'savings' onto the consumer?
I don't believe that for a second.

In the absence of govt intervention there are no corporations, there is no limited liability, there is no patent protection and there is no copyright protection.

The patents allowed on medicines is pretty evil as it allows pharma corporations to financially rape governments and individuals for the number of years they are allowed to monopolize the market.

Also, free market solutions wouldn't be free-for-all solutions. I don't see why there wouldn't still be qualified doctors and co-ops that would ensure standards.

I guess in a free market there'd be way more universities competing to qualify doctors driving down the cost and increasing the supply.

Deki

as a US citizen all i can say is be careful what you wish for... what seems simple and as warm and loving as a puppy may turn out to be a biting howling overgrown monster in the end.

Tiocfaidh Armani

Deki wrote: »

as a US citizen all i can say is be careful what you wish for... what seems simple and as warm and loving as a puppy may turn out to be a biting howling overgrown monster in the end.

The best health care systems in the world are the nationalised ones. You're the only industrialised country in the world without nationalised health care, who are you to advise us on the perils of nationalised health care, you're the only one WITHOUT it, what would you know?!

Deki

Tiocfaidh Armani wrote: »

The best health care systems in the world are the nationalised ones. You're the only industrialised country in the world without nationalised health care, who are you to advise us on the perils of nationalised health care, you're the only one WITHOUT it, what would you know?!

Didn't mean that as a criticism of nationalized health care - only meant what a disaster our(U.S.) attempt has become. Wouldn't you think we could have done a better job of it?
It stands now that people without health care may be breaking the law for not having health care before long. If you have money enough or a good job that provides affordable healthcare you're ok, and if you are so poor the state has to support you you are provided health care but if you fall between - trying to get by, but have no extra money - you are in trouble.
I am all for Health Care plan - just be sure you're getting what you hoped for. Sorry to have annoyed you but even ignorant idiots like me are entitled to an opinion.:D

44leto

It is an expensive business being sicky poohs.

I caught the mange or distemper last week it has resulted in 2 visits to the doc, 100€, 2 prescriptions, 80€, and about 20€ of over the counter crap. Plus loss earning and I don't want to think of them.

Tiocfaidh Armani

Deki wrote: »

Didn't mean that as a criticism of nationalized health care - only meant what a disaster our(U.S.) attempt has become. Wouldn't you think we could have done a better job of it?
It stands now that people without health care may be breaking the law for not having health care before long. If you have money enough or a good job that provides affordable healthcare you're ok, and if you are so poor the state has to support you you are provided health care but if you fall between - trying to get by, but have no extra money - you are in trouble.
I am all for Health Care plan - just be sure you're getting what you hoped for. Sorry to have annoyed you but even ignorant idiots like me are entitled to an opinion.:D

No I agree your attempt seems a little crazy but I don't think that was Obama's preferred option. I think he wanted an actual public option, not a plan whereby you are instructed to buy private insurance, it's not really nationalised health care that but such was the right wing hysteria over the public option he couldn't get the support from the fiscally conservative Democrats (Blue Dog Dems).

There's a lot of good to his plan such as it being illegal to reject someone cover for pre-existing conditions etc. Sorry was a bit harsh, I thought you were the usual right wing American. Apologies, I have a great time for the US, love visiting the place, friendliest people on the planet bar none:)

Deki

No in the beginning I was all for a national health plan (am still to be honest) but after everyone had a go at it the plan is now a mess. It will probably be repealed just as Obama will probably not be given a second term. Now I've put myself in a bad mood am going to shut up.

Andy!!

maygitchell wrote: »

Becoz stuff costs mooolah lol

Obviously not a tax payer then no? :pac:

Sulmac

Bump:

State aiming for free GP care for all by 2015

MICHELLE McDONAGH

Fri, Nov 18, 2011

THE GOVERNMENT is pushing ahead with plans to introduce free GP care for all by 2015 and universal health insurance the following year, Minister of State with Responsibility for Primary Care Róisín Shortall said yesterday.

She also said GP fees for the 56,000 people registered as having long-term illnesses would be abolished next March at a cost of €15 million. This will be followed in 2013 by the abolition of fees for the 50,000 people on the high-dependency drugs scheme at a further cost of €15 million. Free GP care will then be rolled out to the rest of the population at an estimated cost of €300 million by 2015, according to Ms Shortall.

She made the announcements – promised in the Labour Party’s pre-election health manifesto – at the inaugural national Primary Care Conference in Mitchelstown, Co Cork. Ms Shortall also announced funding of €250 million for the provision and development of primary care teams and centres around the State.

© 2011 The Irish Times