Dr Ferrari's Camper Van (off-topic discussion)

Chips Lovell · 07-12-2011 12:31pm

CramCycle wrote: »

Does a club competition license cover you for Hill Climb challenges or do you have to get a Full Competition license?

You mean the National Hill Climb Championships?

CramCycle · 07-12-2011 12:46pm

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

You mean the National Hill Climb Championships?

That and if a club was organising a hill climb challenge as well (but I presume that would fall under club race). I looked at the entry forms for this year of the Usher CC and there is no mention of CI license, just what group you are in eg Senior, Ladies etc.

Chips Lovell · 07-12-2011 12:56pm

CramCycle wrote: »

That and if a club was organising a hill climb challenge as well (but I presume that would fall under club race). I looked at the entry forms for this year of the Usher CC and there is no mention of CI license, just what group you are in eg Senior, Ladies etc.

Several club leagues have a Hill Climb TT in them and those would fall under the club competition licence, like the rest of the league races.

The National Hill Climb Champs are an open race and you need at least an A3 open competition licence to enter. This year, Usher ran a parallel open race at the Hill Climb Champs that was open to A4s, but that isn't guaranteed to happen every year.

I had heard that day licences were being abolished next year, but they are listed in the 2012 schedule of fees, so it looks like they aren't. I don't think you can do a National Championship event on a day licence though, but that's worth checking.

Hermy · 07-12-2011 1:00pm

Vinokourov denies he bought 2010 Liège-Bastogne-Liège win

Chips Lovell · 07-12-2011 1:03pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQAydiz3inA

ROK ON · 07-12-2011 1:11pm

Hermy wrote: »

Vinokourov denies he bought 2010 Liège-Bastogne-Liège win

Who knows whether or this this is true - but even if it is, then it is within the spirit of pro cycling. Buying off rivals has long been part of the tradition in the sport. Not only has buying off rivals been part of the history, doing deals with rivals is also part and parcel of the sport even in large races. Kelly and Fignon are said to have had a deal in the MSR that Fignon won (reported in Fignons autobiog). ISTR, that when Deignan won the stage in the Veulta, that Kreuziger offered him money to let him win - to which Deignan refused. http://worldwidecyclesblog.com/2009/09/21/the-art-of-the-deal/

Is it cheating - yeah it is. But thats just part of the sport. DOubt it will change.

Chips Lovell · 07-12-2011 1:15pm

Agreed. Doing deals is part and parcel of the sport. I did find Vino's explanation hilarious though. He just happened to lend Kolobnev €100K the day after LBL.

Lumen · 07-12-2011 1:16pm

ROK ON wrote: »

Who knows whether or this this is true - but even if it is, then it is within the spirit of pro cycling. Buying off rivals has long been part of the tradition in the sport. Not only has buying off rivals been part of the jistory, doing deals with rivals is also part and parcel of the sport even in large races. Kelly and Fignon are said to have had a deal in the MSR that Fignon won (reported in Fignons autobiog). ISTR, that when Deignan won the stage in the Veulta, that Kreuziger offered him money to win - to which Deignan refused. http://worldwidecyclesblog.com/2009/09/21/the-art-of-the-deal/

Is it cheating - yeah it is. But thats just part of the sport. DOubt it will change.

You can apply the same broken logic to any immoral behaviour that isn't novel.

Murder? People have been killing each other in fits of rage since time immemorial. Move on.

Rape? Ah sure, look at the Vikings, nothing new there. Why get worked up about it?

ROK ON · 07-12-2011 1:51pm

Lumen wrote: »

You can apply the same broken logic to any immoral behaviour that isn't novel.

Murder? People have been killing each other in fits of rage since time immemorial. Move on.

Rape? Ah sure, look at the Vikings, nothing new there. Why get worked up about it?

Yes if you want to be hysterical then you can draw that anaology. I think one uses a moral compass to draw a (somewhat arbitrary) line on the level of immorality.
There is no harm to the individual or to broader society done when someone wants to do a deal that will impact the outcome of a sporting fixture. Rape and murder are different in that a person (and society) suffers as a result.
Paying bribes to impact the outcome of a public policy matter is more serious than say sporting bribes, but maybe dificult to measure versus murder/rape - however society is impacted.
On the same topic, typical morality views prostitution and drug taking as bad things. I view them as stuff that has and will always happen. I would like to see both decriminalised and regulated for the sake of society and safety. But that does not mean that I want murder decriminalised or sporting bribery criminalised.

We are given a small modicum of intelligence by God/nature/life (whatever is appropriate) to try and discern what is more and less acceptable. Sometimes we are on the right track, sometimes less so. But your analogy smacks a little of Godwinsim.

ROK ON · 07-12-2011 1:52pm

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Agreed. Doing deals is part and parcel of the sport. I did find Vino's explanation hilarious though. He just happened to lend Kolobnev €100K the day after LBL.

LOL. The similarities between Bertie Aherne and Vino are scary.

Lumen · 07-12-2011 2:27pm

ROK ON wrote: »

Yes if you want to be hysterical then you can draw that anaology. I think one uses a moral compass to draw a (somewhat arbitrary) line on the level of immorality.

There is no harm to the individual or to broader society done when someone wants to do a deal that will impact the outcome of a sporting fixture. Rape and murder are different in that a person (and society) suffers as a result.
Paying bribes to impact the outcome of a public policy matter is more serious than say sporting bribes, but maybe dificult to measure versus murder/rape - however society is impacted.

On the same topic, typical morality views prostitution and drug taking as bad things. I view them as stuff that has and will always happen. I would like to see both decriminalised and regulated for the sake of society and safety. But that does not mean that I want murder decriminalised or sporting bribery criminalised.

We are given a small modicum of intelligence by God/nature/life (whatever is appropriate) to try and discern what is more and less acceptable. Sometimes we are on the right track, sometimes less so. But your analogy smacks a little of Godwinsim.

Don't be throwing around accusations of Godwinning. I'll invoke the Nazis when it pleases me, which is not now.

Anyway, you can't draw a line with a compass, Mr Small Modicum Of Intelligence.

Just so I'm clear on where the ROK ON line lies....

Sporting bribery
Coke & hookers
--- ^ FTW --- \/ FAIL ---
Political bribery
Rape & murder

tomasrojo · 07-12-2011 2:29pm

ROK ON wrote: »

Not only has buying off rivals been part of the jistory, doing deals with rivals is also part and parcel of the sport even in large races.

I don't know anything about the question in hand, but I do like this neologism. The combination of "jist" and "history" suggests a very approximate understanding of how something came to be.

Of course, it might be because 'h' and 'j' are beside each other on the keyboard.

ROK ON · 07-12-2011 2:40pm

Lumen wrote: »

Don't be throwing around accusations of Godwinning. I'll invoke the Nazis when it pleases me, which is not now.

Anyway, you can't draw a line with a compass, Mr Small Modicum Of Intelligence.

Just so I'm clear on where the ROK ON line lies....

Sporting bribery
Coke & hookers
--- ^ FTW --- \/ FAIL ---
Political bribery
Rape & murder

Sort of. Its not black and white, its not even grey. Morality is complex.

Dermot Illogical · 07-12-2011 2:44pm

Do modicums come in any size other than small?

Hermy · 07-12-2011 3:08pm

ROK ON wrote: »

...then it is within the spirit of pro cycling...

Then cycling isn't a sport.

ROK ON · 07-12-2011 3:12pm

Hermy wrote: »

Then cycling isn't a sport.

I dont believe that it is. But I think most pro sports are outside of what is actually understood by sport. The extreme is pro wrestling, and many others are just diluted variants of it.
Sport at its purest has nothing other than tribal rivalry and petty hatred at stake - like a junior 3rds rugby/soccer/GAA match between two neighbouring teams.

Nothing at stake only bragging rights.

It drives me mad that in amateur sports (like cycling and triathlons that the prizes are sometimes monetary). What a joke - as if it wasnt expensive enough to put on an event, without having to give €100 notes to some mamil.

Dermot Illogical · 07-12-2011 3:22pm

http://www.thejournal.ie/seamus-oconnells-ivory-tower-in-cork-closed-by-food-safety-unit-299177-Dec2011/

ROK ON wrote: »

I had a most wonderful meal this evening in The Ivory Tower. Blown away by tasting menu.
Ceviche of fish
Razor clams
Pate
Wood pigeon
Lambs Tongue
Lambs Kidneys
Swordfish satay
Duck in jalapeño sauce
Venison in Mexican chocolate sauce

Best meal in years. Most inventive meal ever.
Chef is a one man band cooking and serving and hosting.

This place deserves your business.

manwithaplan · 07-12-2011 3:32pm

Deals are certainly a part of cycling. Examples might include:

"I'll give you the win if you work hard with me to put time into my GC rivals".

or

"I'll give you the win today if your lot work for our team leader tomorrow in the mountains".

I'm not sure whether

"I'll give you the win if you lodge €100,000 into my swiss bank account"

is entirely in the same space. Of course

"Let me win and we'll split the pot"

might seem more acceptable!

ROK ON · 07-12-2011 3:38pm

RT66 wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/seamus-oconnells-ivory-tower-in-cork-closed-by-food-safety-unit-299177-Dec2011/

The night I was there, he (O'Connell) advised us that this was going to happen. He was completely above board with us. There was a sign oj his dorr saying that he was involved in a high court action against the HAACP or HSE (I cant recall). Some muppet from the HSE was walking around in what appeared to be a biohazard suit. I saw a deer carcass come into the kitchen, and venison appeared on my plate an hour later - truly fantatsic.

Despite that, it was a trenmendous meal. The man is a visionary and is being closed odwn by the a bunch of bureaucrats in health and safety - they wouldnt know good foood, if they were force fed it.
A sad day.

Lumen · 07-12-2011 3:39pm

manwithaplan wrote: »

Deals are certainly a part of cycling

Sure, however there's a bit of a difference between trading favours for a stage win and chucking a classic for a hundred big ones.

A reasonable rule of thumb, along the lines of ROK ON's "no harm no foul, it's only sport" idea, ought to be "don't fix anything which is bet on", or conversely "don't bet on anything which is fixed". Not sure where that puts greyhound racing.

ROK ON · 07-12-2011 3:41pm

Lumen wrote: »

Sure, however there's a bit of a difference between trading favours for a stage win and chucking a classic for a hundred big ones.

A reasonable rule of thumb, along the lines of ROK ON's "no harm no foul, it's only sport" idea, ought to be "don't fix anything which is bet on", or conversely "don't bet on anything which is fixed". Not sure where that puts greyhound racing.

I know a few people involved in grehound racing. I think that it is possibly one of the dirtiest 'sports' out there. By dirty I am not referring to doggy poo.

blorg · 07-12-2011 3:55pm

Has this been posted yet?

manwithaplan · 07-12-2011 4:12pm

Lumen wrote: »

Sure, however there's a bit of a difference between trading favours for a stage win and chucking a classic for a hundred big ones.

Was that not the point of my post?

Lumen · 07-12-2011 4:17pm

manwithaplan wrote: »

Was that not the point of my post?

Yes.

RobFowl · 07-12-2011 4:31pm

Lumen vs manwithaplan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_-5M7G3NgA

Jawgap · 07-12-2011 4:37pm

Hermy wrote: »

Then cycling isn't a sport.

you can't really judge one sport by reference to another.

In rugby throwing a punch (in certain circumstances) is acceptable, even required - but try the same thing during rhythmic gymnastics and everyone calls you a lout

Hermy · 07-12-2011 5:07pm

Jawgap wrote: »

you can't really judge one sport by reference to another.

I didn't think I had.

Jawgap · 07-12-2011 5:14pm

Hermy wrote: »

I didn't think I had.

Sincerest apologies - I thought you had in an unspoken, kind of implied way:)

Hermy · 07-12-2011 5:17pm

Jawgap wrote: »

Sincerest apologies - I thought you had in an unspoken, kind of implied way:)

I could never be that cunning.:o

petethedrummer · 07-12-2011 5:17pm

ROK ON wrote: »

I know a few people involved in grehound racing. I think that it is possibly one of the dirtiest 'sports' out there. By dirty I am not referring to doggy poo.

So do I, they say horse racing is easier to corrupt. You can't instruct a dog not to run fast, you can instruct a jockey to pull up. You can of course give the dog lemonade before he goes out so he can't run too fast.

ROK ON · 07-12-2011 6:28pm

Cycling is history. Private equity group, Bridgepoint, has acquired Wiggle for what is a reasonably hefty valuation (12-13 x operating profit). Fair play to Wiggle shareholders.

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/de1d02dc-20d6-11e1-816d-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1fs2Zr87u

If this valuation is correct, it would value Wiggle at a similar multiple to online clothes retailer ASOS plc.

An excellent price to be selling a business at, given that Wiggle already operate in 88 countries. Private Equity groups do not have a great track record on acquiring businesses. As a group they acquired many retailers and infrastructure groups between 2004 and 2007. That may not have been astute.

kumate_champ07 · 07-12-2011 8:42pm

chancer
http://www.adverts.ie/search/user-387699/status_active/type_all

Beasty · 07-12-2011 10:37pm

Bring on Bucharest

... does clash with the Swords League though:(

ROK ON · 07-12-2011 11:13pm

Query. What type of maximum power should a 90kg cyclist be capable of putting out in repeated 10-15 sec efforts punctuated by recovery of up to 1 minute.
The cyclist in question is your average mamil.

Power people - can you give a quick untechnical answer.
If it helps the test is some on a turbo after a good warm up.

Beasty · 07-12-2011 11:26pm

ROK ON wrote: »

Query. What type of maximum power should a 90kg cyclist be capable of putting out in repeated 10-15 sec efforts punctuated by recovery of up to 1 minute.
The cyclist in question is your average mamil.

Power people - can you give a quick untechnical answer.
If it helps the test is some on a turbo after a good warm up.

On the Wattbike I put out 773w over 12s the other night. On the road bike my maximum over 15s is 900w

I admit to being middle aged and just under 90kg

Doing repeats will clearly reduce the average peak power output, but you are still probably talking around 500-600w I would guess

ROK ON · 08-12-2011 12:20am

Thanks Beasty. Lower end of that range (500-600).
Now the interval was effectively from a very low cadence (20/30) start.
That is start in max gear (53/12 for me). Seated effort. So start max gear in very low cadence/low HR (55-60% max). Then ramp up to max possible cadence in 10 s.
Very low effort to max effort in 10 s then 1 m off. Then 12 s etc. 7 efforts in total.
In that circumstance what wattage should the 90k mamil be trying to achieve.

Beasty · 08-12-2011 1:10am

ROK ON wrote: »

Thanks Beasty. Lower end of that range (500-600).
Now the interval was effectively from a very low cadence (20/30) start.
That is start in max gear (53/12 for me). Seated effort. So start max gear in very low cadence/low HR (55-60% max). Then ramp up to max possible cadence in 10 s.
Very low effort to max effort in 10 s then 1 m off. Then 12 s etc. 7 efforts in total.
In that circumstance what wattage should the 90k mamil be trying to achieve.

TBH it's all relative. You see what you can do now, and try to improve it. My peak power (1 second) now is about 400w (50%) higher than it was when I got the powermeter a couple of years ago. I reckon perhaps 30-40% of that improvement is down to physical improvement with the rest down to technique and specific training

The wattage I was putting out the other day was in a "flying 200" where I went into it with momentum. On the road I always find I can put out my best power from a slight decline allowing me to get the momentum with minimum effort, turning to a slight incline when I can put the power down in a high gear for a few seconds.

I was actually doing some short efforts on the Wattbike the other night also (it was part of my warm-up) - basically 2 minutes spinning, followed by 6 seconds as hard as I could go. I hit peak power on the 3rd effort (1,065w peak, about 1,000w over the full 6s), with just a bit less on the 4th. It deteriorated significantly the next time and I finished with a 5 min recovery before trying the 200.

chakattack · 08-12-2011 1:40am

ROK ON wrote: »

Thanks Beasty. Lower end of that range (500-600).
Now the interval was effectively from a very low cadence (20/30) start.
That is start in max gear (53/12 for me). Seated effort. So start max gear in very low cadence/low HR (55-60% max). Then ramp up to max possible cadence in 10 s.
Very low effort to max effort in 10 s then 1 m off. Then 12 s etc. 7 efforts in total.
In that circumstance what wattage should the 90k mamil be trying to achieve.

That type of "interval" is not really targetting power but is designed to generate "strength" by maximising the force needed to get the pedals moving from low cadence in a high gear. I've been doing these recently and generally stop around 500-700W or 60rpm as the intention is force not speed or power. You're legs and core muscles are the limiting factor here and you can definitely get much higher max power in a proper sprint using a gear you can get on top of.

A proper sprint is high gear, high cadence. Look at Mark Cavendish....

For a 90kg Cat V rider (entry level in the states) this should be 1060 to 1280W for 5secs according to the power table in "Training and Racing with a Power Meter"

ednwireland · 08-12-2011 9:10am

no way would i cycle in that (even if my back wasnt wrecked)

Beasty · 08-12-2011 9:29am

chakattack wrote: »

For a 90kg Cat V rider (entry level in the states) this should be 1060 to 1280W for 5secs according to the power table in "Training and Racing with a Power Meter"

Lower for MAMILs;)

Interestingly the book doesn't try and quantify the impact of age. IIRC it simply says that there will be some reduction as you get older. I know that I'm at the bottom end of the scale at the 5s interval, but head up to around Cat 3 or 4 at FT (which explains my relatively strong TT'ing performances)

Having said that, ROK ON's a spring chicken really (compared to some of us anyway)

Sr. Assumpta · 08-12-2011 10:37am

RT66 wrote: »

Do modicums come in any size other than small?

modicum, n.

Pronunciation: Brit. /ˈmɒdᵻkəm/ , U.S. /ˈmɑdəkəm/
Etymology: < classical Latin modicum a small or modest amount (especially of money), use as noun of neuter of modicus moderate < modus mode n. + -icus -ic suffix....
1. A small quantity or portion; a moderate or limited amount. (Often modified by little, small, tiny.)

Godwinism, n.

1. William Godwin (1756–1836) was the founder of philosophical anarchism. In his An Enquiry Concerning Political Justice (1793) he argued that government is a corrupting force in society, perpetuating dependence and ignorance, but that it will be rendered increasingly unnecessary and powerless by the gradual spread of knowledge.
One of Godwin's lasting contributions to moral philosophy is ‘the famous fire clause’, in which we are asked to consider whom I should save from a burning room if I can only save one person and if the choice is between Archbishop Fénelon ROK ON and a common chambermaid Lumen......

2. A term that originated on Usenet, Godwin's Law states that as an online argument grows longer and more heated, it becomes increasingly likely that somebody will bring up Adolf Hitler or the Nazis. When such an event occurs, the person guilty of invoking Godwin's Law has effectively forfieted the argument.

lumen, n.

Pronunciation: /ˈl(j)uːmɛn/
Forms: Pl. lumina /ˈl(j)uːmɪnə/ .
Etymology: Latin = light; an opening.
1. An opening, passage, or canal.
a.Anatomy and Zoology

roko, n.

Pronunciation: Brit. /ˈrəʊkəʊ/ , U.S. /ˈroʊkoʊ/
Etymology: Shortened < rasta roko n.
...In India: a protest in which road or rail traffic is disrupted by a large group of demonstrators. With modifying word indicating the type of transportation targeted.

Ref. OED.

RobFowl · 08-12-2011 12:06pm

Sr. Assumpta wrote: »

1. A small quantity or portion; a moderate or limited amount. (Often modified by little, small, tiny.)

As in a modicum of goals or even a modicum of European cups?

Beasty · 08-12-2011 12:24pm

... first time ever we've qualified for the Europa Cup

I do believe Bucharest is nicer than Munich anyway ...

... and Thursday nights means more time on the track ...

Darkglasses · 08-12-2011 3:59pm

Had the enormously satisfying feeling of confirming that i've successfully fixed the rear derailleur on my commuter bike. Winning.

ROK ON · 08-12-2011 8:15pm

chakattack wrote: »

That type of "interval" is not really targetting power but is designed to generate "strength" by maximising the force needed to get the pedals moving from low cadence in a high gear. I've been doing these recently and generally stop around 500-700W or 60rpm as the intention is force not speed or power. You're legs and core muscles are the limiting factor here and you can definitely get much higher max power in a proper sprint using a gear you can get on top of.

"

Beasty wrote: »

Lower for MAMILs;)

Interestingly the book doesn't try and quantify the impact of age. IIRC it simply says that there will be some reduction as you get older. I know that I'm at the bottom end of the scale at the 5s interval, but head up to around Cat 3 or 4 at FT (which explains my relatively strong TT'ing performances)

Having said that, ROK ON's a spring chicken really (compared to some of us anyway)

Thanks for that guys. More work to do so. I was at a spinning class that had a wattage readout - no idea as to how it was calculated (may have been an estimate). However, I found that it was slightly addictive trying to beat the wattage max of the previous interval. I may just have to get one. I could see how it turns cycling into a great game, of beating your previous score.