Household Charge Public Meeting Roanmore Club

Mach Lei

As Many people are aware by now of The €100 household charge announced by the government comes into effect on 1st January 2012.
It will be the first step in the government’s plans to implement a fully fledged property and water tax by 2014 that could cost over €1,000 per household according to one government economic advisor.
This community organising meeting of the Campaign Against Household & Water Tax is intended to equip people with the arguments against these unjust taxes and the information and resources for organising a campaign of non payment in your community.
This meeting is open to everyone who wants to play a part in stopping these taxes. COME ALONG AND SPREAD THE WORD
Kicking off in Roanmore GAA club and more meetings around waterford city over next weeks. the meeting will be at Thursday, October 20 · 8:00pm - 9:30pm

200motels

When is the meeting on?

Smiley Burnett

i presume this meeting is going to be about getting votes for either;

1-dick roche
2-john halligan
3-sinn fein

????????????????????

Mach Lei

The meeting will be Thursday, October 20 · 8:00pm - 9:30pm, will be the first meeting with many more meetings to follow in the next few weeks.

wellboytoo

Mach Lei wrote: »

As Many people are aware by now of The €100 household charge announced by the government comes into effect on 1st January 2012.
It will be the first step in the government’s plans to implement a fully fledged property and water tax by 2014 that could cost over €1,000 per household according to one government economic advisor.This community organising meeting of the Campaign Against Household & Water Tax is intended to equip people with the arguments against these unjust taxes and the information and resources for organising a campaign of non payment in your community.
This meeting is open to everyone who wants to play a part in stopping these taxes. COME ALONG AND SPREAD THE WORD
Kicking off in Roanmore GAA club and more meetings around waterford city over next weeks. the meeting will be at Thursday, October 20 · 8:00pm - 9:30pm

Could I have the source for this figure, or are you just pulling it out of the air?

deeks

Mach Lei wrote: »

As Many people are aware by now of The €100 household charge announced by the government comes into effect on 1st January 2012.
It will be the first step in the government’s plans to implement a fully fledged property and water tax by 2014 that could cost over €1,000 per household according to one government economic advisor.
This community organising meeting of the Campaign Against Household & Water Tax is intended to equip people with the arguments against these unjust taxes and the information and resources for organising a campaign of non payment in your community.
This meeting is open to everyone who wants to play a part in stopping these taxes. COME ALONG AND SPREAD THE WORD
Kicking off in Roanmore GAA club and more meetings around waterford city over next weeks. the meeting will be at Thursday, October 20 · 8:00pm - 9:30pm

Who's organising the meeting?

average_runner

And can you also tell me why this is unjust?

Most other countries have this tax also.

Sosa

average_runner wrote: »

And can you also tell me why this is unjust?

Most other countries have this tax also.

If i jumped into the Quay River...would you follow me ?

Hoffmans

so whos organising this meeting swp or sf?

average_runner

Sosa wrote: »

If i jumped into the Quay River...would you follow me ?

Thats a childish and pathetic answer that doesnt answer why its unjust.

A property tax is common sense, the problem is will it be spent correctly?

The idea behind is great, but what people of local areas got do is ensure that they dont now elect muppets to the council who havent got clue how to run a local council.

About time this tax was brought in. It should and hopefully in the future will be given to local authorites to control this tax, ie raising or lowering of it.

average_runner

Hoffmans wrote: »

so whos organising this meeting swp or sf?

Probably parties that never had to make a financial decision for this country in their history!!

Sully

Doubt there is any movement on this as its a requirement from the EU/IMF IIRC. A water charge at the very least is a welcomed charge if its ring fenced into water only and is very common in other countries.

lewisdhead

average_runner wrote: »

And can you also tell me why this is unjust?

So I buy a site, pay a builder to build my house, pay to be connected to electricity and pay bi-monthly for the electricity I use, pay my refuse collection charges, pay to have a well dropped and maintained for water, take out a mortgage that I pay monthly. Pay stamp duty and any other taxes owed. Work hard to maintain and pay for my house, and now I have to pay a tax for that privilege.

Maybe I'm naive and ill-informed, but that seems unjust to me. Now, although I admire the people who organise and drive these protests, I am also of the opinion that such protests are futile, and as a result I will probably end up paying these charges begrudgingly should they be implemented.

Kracken

I am curious are any of the posters here politically affliated with any party or have cuase for gain if this tax goes through.

There seems to be an awful lot of political / clandestine swinging of opinions going on boards at the moment.

Sully

Kracken wrote: »

I am curious are any of the posters here politically affliated with any party or have cuase for gain if this tax goes through.

There seems to be an awful lot of political / clandestine swinging of opinions going on boards at the moment.

I'm not sure how being a supporter or member of a political party would be grounds for "gain" for such people tbh.

The only charge im unsure about is the household charge, bar maybe a temp charge to raise funds.

Kracken

Hi Sully, What I meant to say is that, I have seen on other forums, posts which have been made from employees of government staff, trying to offset the impact of social media on debate and questions of other such taxes.

Some of the post earlier seemed to be have the same feel of diversion to them.

wellboytoo

Hoffmans wrote: »

so whos organising this meeting swp or sf?

A very good question, I would not go to a meeting unless I knew who was behind it, lest I be used as a pawn by someone unknown. and a poster who obviously joined boards just to advertise this event, I would be very wary turning up.

Sully

Kracken wrote: »

Hi Sully, What I meant to say is that, I have seen on other forums, posts which have been made from employees of government staff, trying to offset the impact of social media on debate and questions of other such taxes.

Some of the post earlier seemed to be have the same feel of diversion to them.

Actually, what you see isn't the government but supporters of political parties or candidates. Right now the Politics Forum is full of Sinn Fein supporters as is the internet tbh. A lot of news sites with the comment feature is jammed with Sinn Fein stuff.

200motels

average_runner wrote: »

Thats a childish and pathetic answer that doesnt answer why its unjust.

A property tax is common sense, the problem is will it be spent correctly?

The idea behind is great, but what people of local areas got do is ensure that they dont now elect muppets to the council who havent got clue how to run a local council.

About time this tax was brought in. It should and hopefully in the future will be given to local authorites to control this tax, ie raising or lowering of it.

Most other countries pay more tax than us but they also get a much much better public service for it, we on the other hand have probably the worst public service in the western world, I will not pay any house hold or water charges, why should we pay for the banks and corrupt politicians who had a huge hand in bringing this country to it's knees.

Mach Lei

Could I have the source for this figure, or are you just pulling it out of the air?

It will be advertised in the local papers,radio over next few days, there,s posters around the hillview area to advertise the meeting.

Who's organising the meeting?

The Waterford Campaign against Household and Water Tax is part of a National Campaign and is open to all those prepared to oppose the new Charge/Tax through a mass National boycott of the charges. Although public representatives will play an important role, it will not be affiliated to any political party or organisation.

http://www.waterford-today.ie/waterford-today-news/14222-waterford-campaign-against-household-charges-and-water-tax-14222.html

IM personally not a member of any political party, but I am taking part in this campaign as Im opposed to any property taxes and water charges.

For those opposed to both charges come along to thursdays meeting for information and resources for organising a campaign of non payment in your community-Mach lei,)

Sully

Mach Lei; Is it not ill advised to get people not to pay the tax? Isn't it going to be an offense with jail time and fines levied on people who don't pay?

Also, I take it that unless your opposed to both charges you shouldn't bother turning up? A lot of people don't mind paying a water charge like our fellow neighbours do.

Mach Lei

Is it not ill advised to get people not to pay the tax

No its not, like the previous anti water charges campaigns, non payment was the only way to win and to get the charges dropped.

Isn't it going to be an offense with jail time and fines levied on people who don't pay?

Like the previous anti water charges campaigns, If the majority prepare to resist these charges. If nobody pays, they will be impossible to collect."there,s already being succesful public meetings in Galway and Kilkenny in opposition to these charges with the majority who attented have agreed to engage in non payment,

Also, I take it that unless your opposed to both charges you shouldn't bother turning up?

Regardles if someone agrees with one charges and disagrees with another charge,the fact is this is the only campaign that,s organising public meetings on the basis of non payment, so if someone wants to engage in non payment come along thursday, and lets organise -Mach Lei,)

Sully

Think there is a group in Roscommon that are doing the whole non-payment thing as well.

Whats attendance been like at these meetings so far? How many people attend and agree to non-payment?

Also, seeing as your organising/part of organising it -- why are you so against a water tax that would be ring fenced so it would be poured into the system to replace, upgrade and fix pipes that are damaged and thus costing us millions (us as in you, me and anybody else who pays taxes) as it stands plus wastage.

The country is broke. We are spending a fortune on a broken water system that should be fixed to save us millions going forward. The only way to pay for this, is your tax. You don't get your electricity for free - you pay for the privilege. Likewise with oil and gas for heating/cooking - you pay for the privilege. Your household rubbish is collected and sorted for you - you pay for the privilege.

Why exactly should water be any different?

Mach Lei

Think there is a group in Roscommon that are doing the whole non-payment thing as well

To the best of my knowledge, there hasn,t been any public meetings or groups set up in roscommon yet to date.

Whats attendance been like at these meetings so far? How many people attend and agree to non-payment?

There has been good turnouts in Galway and Kilkenny.

Upwards of seventy people came together to vent their anger and voice their concerns about the household charge. It was generally agreed at the meeting that the only method of defeating the charge was through a concerted campaign of mass non-payment.

http://glykosymoritis.blogspot.com/2011/10/galway-more-anti-household-charge.html#!/2011/10/galway-more-anti-household-charge.html

A group of angry Kilkenny people have voiced their opposition to the intended household charges

A lively discussion took place with general agreement that non-payment was the way to defeat this tax

http://www.advertiser.ie/kilkenny/article/45257/public-stand-together-against-household-taxes?fb_ref=.TpeeC0DdQ4c.like&fb_source=profile_oneline

why are you so against a water tax

If successful in imposing a domestic water tax, the next step will undoubtedly be the privatisation of the service. As has been demonstrated with the bin tax, once the charge was introduced, it opened up the waste collection service to private investors who now operate the service in three of the four local authorities in Dublin. It seems only a matter of time that Dublin City Council will follow the same route as Fingal, South Dublin and Dún Laoghaire/Rathdown in privatising its waste collection service.
Legislation already allows for private sector involvement in the supply of domestic water. The Water Services Act, 2007 states:
‘A water services authority may provide water services or supervise the provision of water services by other persons, in accordance with any prescribed standards, for domestic and non-domestic requirements in its functional area’.
Put simply local authorities or the soon to be established Water Authority has the power to sell off the domestic water supply to private investors. The introduction of water metering and charges are the first steps along that road.-Mach Lei,)

Sully

Mach Lei wrote: »

If successful in imposing a domestic water tax, the next step will undoubtedly be the privatisation of the service. As has been demonstrated with the bin tax, once the charge was introduced, it opened up the waste collection service to private investors who now operate the service in three of the four local authorities in Dublin. It seems only a matter of time that Dublin City Council will follow the same route as Fingal, South Dublin and Dún Laoghaire/Rathdown in privatising its waste collection service.
Legislation already allows for private sector involvement in the supply of domestic water. The Water Services Act, 2007 states:
‘A water services authority may provide water services or supervise the provision of water services by other persons, in accordance with any prescribed standards, for domestic and non-domestic requirements in its functional area’.
Put simply local authorities or the soon to be established Water Authority has the power to sell off the domestic water supply to private investors. The introduction of water metering and charges are the first steps along that road.-Mach Lei,)

We have a private bin service here in Waterford. Some of them are cheaper and better than what the council provided. Plenty of competition. Whats the big deal?

Yes Boss

Mach Lei wrote: »

To the best of my knowledge, there hasn,t been any public meetings or groups set up in roscommon yet to date.



There has been good turnouts in Galway and Kilkenny.




http://glykosymoritis.blogspot.com/2011/10/galway-more-anti-household-charge.html#!/2011/10/galway-more-anti-household-charge.html






http://www.advertiser.ie/kilkenny/article/45257/public-stand-together-against-household-taxes?fb_ref=.TpeeC0DdQ4c.like&fb_source=profile_oneline



If successful in imposing a domestic water tax, the next step will undoubtedly be the privatisation of the service. As has been demonstrated with the bin tax, once the charge was introduced, it opened up the waste collection service to private investors who now operate the service in three of the four local authorities in Dublin. It seems only a matter of time that Dublin City Council will follow the same route as Fingal, South Dublin and Dún Laoghaire/Rathdown in privatising its waste collection service.
Legislation already allows for private sector involvement in the supply of domestic water. The Water Services Act, 2007 states:
‘A water services authority may provide water services or supervise the provision of water services by other persons, in accordance with any prescribed standards, for domestic and non-domestic requirements in its functional area’.
Put simply local authorities or the soon to be established Water Authority has the power to sell off the domestic water supply to private investors. The introduction of water metering and charges are the first steps along that road.-Mach Lei,)

That's a good enough reason to support it. I would like to see the majority of the services privatised which would lead to a huge gain in efficiency (better service and reduced costs). Win-Win....

dayshah

Sully wrote: »

Actually, what you see isn't the government but supporters of political parties or candidates. Right now the Politics Forum is full of Sinn Fein supporters as is the internet tbh. A lot of news sites with the comment feature is jammed with Sinn Fein stuff.

In fairness, SF are probably the main opposition party, given that FF wrote the general current plan.

Mach Lei

We have a private bin service here in Waterford. Some of them are cheaper and better than what the council provided. Plenty of competition. Whats the big deal?

In regards to privatisation of water and why IM opposed to water charges, Opposition to the introduction of water and household taxes is therefore part of a wider struggle to defend public services. One of the many disastrous legacies of the Thatcher era in Britain was the privatisation of the domestic water supply. In the late 1980s the Tory government in Britain privatised the ten local water authorities in England and Wales. What transpired was a massive profit boon for private investors while domestic users were faced with huge bills and a poorer service. Between 1989 and 1995 domestic water rates increased in excess of 100 per cent. With little investment in the water infrastructure, some parts of England lost over one third of treated water through leaking pipes. Not surprisingly, company profits and CEO salaries soared dramatically.
Domestic water supply is now a major global business, for example the French water company Suez is in the top 100 of Fortune magazine’s global corporations. Privatization of domestic water supplies is promoted both by multinational corporations, keenly aware of the enormous profits to be made, and global institutions such as the IMF who attach such conditions to loan repayments and so called debt relief.
The accumulation of private profit is the driving motive of water privatisation, and not, as the political establishment would have us believe, the conservation of water. Across the globe water privatisation has resulted in price hikes for domestic users, an increasing number of disconnections and ultimately a poorer service. From South America to South Africa water privatisation has resulted in some of the world’s poorest communities being cut off from this most vital of natural resources..-Mach Lei,)

dayshah

Privatising a network is rarely successful. Networks are natural monopolies, and private monopolies are worse than public monopolies.

wellboytoo

Yawn wake me up when it's all over, Back to the seventies....... jesus

Mach Lei

average_runner wrote: »

And can you also tell me why this is unjust?

Most other countries have this tax also.

I meant to address this earlier,If you research how property taxes work in the states, if someone refuses to pay, or cannot afford to pay when property tax Increases the local goverment, local council Intervenes and sells the persons OWN PROPERTY off in an auction, which it does raise an interesting point - can one really "own" anything when ownership is conditional? You buy a house, you don't pay your annual property taxes, the government takes it away from you. . Can you truly "own" something if you are forced to pay an uninvolved third party to retain your right to it, especially when this third party owns exclusive rights to legal use of force to collect what it is owed? -Mach Lei,)

seanybiker

Mach Lei wrote: »

I meant to address this earlier,If you research how property taxes work in the states, if someone refuses to pay, or cannot afford to pay when property tax Increases the local goverment, local council Intervenes and sells the persons OWN PROPERTY off in an auction, which it does raise an interesting point - can one really "own" anything when ownership is conditional? You buy a house, you don't pay your annual property taxes, the government takes it away from you. . Can you truly "own" something if you are forced to pay an uninvolved third party to retain your right to it, especially when this third party owns exclusive rights to legal use of force to collect what it is owed? -Mach Lei,)

Sure that's America. They're all mad there. Is a crazy thing though getting turfed out of your own gaff.

honeybadger

i wont be supporting it any way wipe and flush tax t bag tax wash ur hand tax ect et its just tax tax tax ,,the goverment can just fook of in the direction its heading and its not us joe soaps fault either, we spend yer supposed to mend but ye managed to fook that up too pricks ,,,,:mad:

Sully

honeybadger wrote: »

i wont be supporting it any way wipe and flush tax t bag tax wash ur hand tax ect et its just tax tax tax ,,the goverment can just fook of in the direction its heading and its not us joe soaps fault either, we spend yer supposed to mend but ye managed to fook that up too pricks ,,,,:mad:

Sorry, what?!

honeybadger

ur well able to read into it sully,

wellboytoo

Comparing prperty tax in the states and here is not apples and oranges, you can pay up to $50,000.00 per year in a desireable area in certain areas in the states, this pays for your schools, cops, water etc, 50 k per year, the problem with this is the less tax you pay in an area the lesser the quality of education cops etc.
The bottom line is we are under taxed big time in this country, I know people will scream about that, but its true, we pay less tax both direct and indirect than almost everyone, (except the Italians and Greeks).
The argument that we get poor value for what we for pay has validity but maybe we should be getting exercised about that.

average_runner

lewisdhead wrote: »

So I buy a site, pay a builder to build my house, pay to be connected to electricity and pay bi-monthly for the electricity I use, pay my refuse collection charges, pay to have a well dropped and maintained for water, take out a mortgage that I pay monthly. Pay stamp duty and any other taxes owed. Work hard to maintain and pay for my house, and now I have to pay a tax for that privilege.

Maybe I'm naive and ill-informed, but that seems unjust to me. Now, although I admire the people who organise and drive these protests, I am also of the opinion that such protests are futile, and as a result I will probably end up paying these charges begrudgingly should they be implemented.

Who pays for the maintenace out side your house property?

average_runner

200motels wrote: »

Most other countries pay more tax than us but they also get a much much better public service for it, we on the other hand have probably the worst public service in the western world, I will not pay any house hold or water charges, why should we pay for the banks and corrupt politicians who had a huge hand in bringing this country to it's knees.

Wasnt just banks and politicans that brought the country to its knees.
It was us greedy general Irish people that did that. We all kept looking for stupid pay rises saying it was just when it wasnt.

We all used credit cards like it was free cash but we had the common sense to know it wasnt.

Alot of idiots bought houses they couldnt afford, instead of using common sense and saying we actually cant afford that much, lets buy 3 miles further out and afford the house.

Alot of idiots bought houses not thinking they could have kids or one person could lose their job. Feel sorry for where 2 people lost their job in the one house.(different story)

Alot of idiots bought stupid apartments in the middle of no where thinking we make money out of this.

Seriously why banks are at fault so is the stupid Irish people that over spent carelessly.

Its the ones with common sense thats bailing the country and the idiots out.

lewisdhead

average_runner wrote: »

Who pays for the maintenace out side your house property?

I don't understand your question, but to answer it as best I can, outside my property is a road, I pay my motor tax, so I do. http://www.vrt.ie/roadtax.php

Now if you saw the state of the road outside my house you would wonder where the money is going.

Now maybe we should get back on topic as this thread is about household and water tax.

lewisdhead

average_runner wrote: »

Wasnt just banks and politicans that brought the country to its knees.
It was us greedy general Irish people that did that. We all kept looking for stupid pay rises saying it was just when it wasnt.

We all used credit cards like it was free cash but we had the common sense to know it wasnt.

Alot of idiots bought houses they couldnt afford, instead of using common sense and saying we actually cant afford that much, lets buy 3 miles further out and afford the house.

Alot of idiots bought houses not thinking they could have kids or one person could lose their job. Feel sorry for where 2 people lost their job in the one house.(different story)

Alot of idiots bought stupid apartments in the middle of no where thinking we make money out of this.

Seriously why banks are at fault so is the stupid Irish people that over spent carelessly.

Its the ones with common sense thats bailing the country and the idiots out.

Some of this statement I do concur with.

average_runner

lewisdhead wrote: »

I don't understand your question, but to answer it as best I can, outside my property is a road, I pay my motor tax, so I do. http://www.vrt.ie/roadtax.php

Now if you saw the state of the road outside my house you would wonder where the money is going.

Now maybe we should get back on topic as this thread is about household and water tax.

I agree with you on the well issue for the water but the property tax was what i was talking about.

That tax is MENT to be going to the area outside your house, maintaining that area etc and services, ie parks, road cleaning etc. The money you pay for bin collection does not cover the cost of running a dump!!

lewisdhead

average_runner wrote: »

I agree with you on the well issue for the water but the property tax was what i was talking about.

That tax is MENT to be going to the area outside your house, maintaining that area etc and services, ie parks, road cleaning etc. The money you pay for bin collection does not cover the cost of running a dump!!

Well as I said in my first post, maybe I'm not informed enough and I need to do some research. But my circumstances are this, I live in the countryside, house built on my own site. I maintain outside my house within the boundaries of the site. However I have paid most years for the ditch to be cut back outside my house,although the ditch is probably considered part of my boundary. And if you saw the potholes on the road that leads to and past my house, you would be disgusted. So I do have issues with this household tax, but I have already stated that I will end up paying it if implemented.

Anyway, we all have our opinions, it's good that we can discuss them here civilly.

average_runner

Aye, and once you pay that tax you chase then for those potholes!!

200motels

average_runner wrote: »

Wasnt just banks and politicans that brought the country to its knees.
It was us greedy general Irish people that did that. We all kept looking for stupid pay rises saying it was just when it wasnt.

We all used credit cards like it was free cash but we had the common sense to know it wasnt.

Alot of idiots bought houses they couldnt afford, instead of using common sense and saying we actually cant afford that much, lets buy 3 miles further out and afford the house.

Alot of idiots bought houses not thinking they could have kids or one person could lose their job. Feel sorry for where 2 people lost their job in the one house.(different story)

Alot of idiots bought stupid apartments in the middle of no where thinking we make money out of this.

Seriously why banks are at fault so is the stupid Irish people that over spent carelessly.

Its the ones with common sense thats bailing the country and the idiots out.

I don't like your use of the word idiot.
Yes well most of us did go mad but we're all human with faults and when people were offered money left right and centre they took it.

kkdela6

Maybe if these water charges came in our landlord would finally come to fix the leak in our sink!

wellboytoo

lewisdhead wrote: »

Well as I said in my first post, maybe I'm not informed enough and I need to do some research. But my circumstances are this, I live in the countryside, house built on my own site. I maintain outside my house within the boundaries of the site. However I have paid most years for the ditch to be cut back outside my house,although the ditch is probably considered part of my boundary. And if you saw the potholes on the road that leads to and past my house, you would be disgusted. So I do have issues with this household tax, but I have already stated that I will end up paying it if implemented.

Anyway, we all have our opinions, it's good that we can discuss them here civilly.

If you check your folio you will find you own to the centre of the road most probably.

lewisdhead

wellboytoo wrote: »

If you check your folio you will find you own to the centre of the road most probably.

I very much doubt that is the case, but I'll check.

gman2k

wellboytoo wrote: »

If you check your folio you will find you own to the centre of the road most probably.

That hasn't happened in Donkey's years! (and it doesn't actually give you legal ownership or responsibility to the centre of the road.)

Mach Lei

That tax is MENT to be going to the area outside your house, maintaining that area etc and services, ie parks, road cleaning etc

It is another form of double taxation as we already pay for local services through taxes and levies,

wellboytoo

gman2k wrote: »

That hasn't happened in Donkey's years! (and it doesn't actually give you legal ownership or responsibility to the centre of the road.)

It does not happen in suburbia, but does still happen in rural areas still to this day, you have no responsibility over the area but it is on your folio, the op was talking talking about him living in the countryside, maybe you should read the thread before jumping in next time.

gman2k

wellboytoo wrote: »

maybe you should read the thread before jumping in next time.

Thanks, I've been following the thread since the very first post:D

By the way - I hope to be there tomorrow, thanks OP