Occupy Cork

Judes

Wonder how many of the "Occupiers" will vote on Friday - as going to their polling station will help get their point across with 2 items on the national agenda!?* I almost feel like camping out to watch them - just so I know how much they really are trying to change things vs a camp out. Of course, I can't waste my time because I will be voting after work.

parsi

Judes wrote: »

Wonder how many of the "Occupiers" will vote on Friday - as going to their polling station will help get their point across with 2 items on the national agenda!?* I almost feel like camping out to watch them - just so I know how much they really are trying to change things vs a camp out. Of course, I can't waste my time because I will be voting after work.

Voting is on Thursday.

Judes

Parsi you are so right - had one of my "senior" moments - so everything I just said - I stand by it - for THURSDAY. Many thanks for pointing out Parsi.:D

mikom

Judes wrote: »

Wonder how many of the "Occupiers" will vote on Friday

You are confused with the possible X-factor voting on Friday

Judes

Mikom I'd be beyond having a "senior" moment if I did that!

JaneHudson

The whole discussion is being dragged down by references to the physical appearance of so-called ‘hippies’ and ‘crusties’ etc. (not everyone who works for a living wears a tie y’know) and pointless nit-picking on what day of the week voting is on.
At the occupy Cork site I would have loved to have seen some positivity instead of vague rants against ‘the government’, ‘the blue collar criminals’ ‘the system’, etc. such as ideas and incentives to establish sustainability and support for local crafts and businesses. I saw and heard a lot of ‘we want’ and ‘we deserve’ but not much in the way of where exactly the cash might come from.
While most of the people there are well-meaning, their time could have been better spent mounting campaigns to have specific laws and taxes amended or demanding investigations or tribunals into all this corruption.

Also if they were better able to convey that the protest is being mounted by actual tax-players it would lend a lot more credibility. In the absence of a clearly defined ‘cause’, the only discussion that is being generated seems to be about the demographic of the protesters.

Bannasidhe

JaneHudson wrote: »

The whole discussion is being dragged down by references to the physical appearance of so-called ‘hippies’ and ‘crusties’ etc. (not everyone who works for a living wears a tie y’know) and pointless nit-picking on what day of the week voting is on.
At the occupy Cork site I would have loved to have seen some positivity instead of vague rants against ‘the government’, ‘the blue collar criminals’ ‘the system’, etc. such as ideas and incentives to establish sustainability and support for local crafts and businesses. I saw and heard a lot of ‘we want’ and ‘we deserve’ but not much in the way of where exactly the cash might come from.
While most of the people there are well-meaning, their time could have been better spent mounting campaigns to have specific laws and taxes amended or demanding investigations or tribunals into all this corruption.

Also if they were better able to convey that the protest is being mounted by actual tax-players it would lend a lot more credibility. In the absence of a clearly defined ‘cause’, the only discussion that is being generated seems to be about the demographic of the protesters.

I agree that commenting on the appearance of people who have been sleeping in tents in horrendous weather in order to dismiss them as hippies and crusties is pointless. I would defy even the most well groomed person in the world to spend even 24 hours camping without shower facilities in cold wet weather to not end up looking 'crusty'.

As for the 'demands' - there is no instant fix, nor are there easy answers. The Occupy movement is attempting to create something which allows ordinary people a voice in how they are governed. And yes, 'something' is the best term to apply at this point - because it is an unformed aspirational idea (in the same way as the 'idea' of an independent Irish state once was...).

It wants to do this by consensus - a dialogue among the people. Right now, people are angry, unfocused and confused. As a people we allowed central government a great deal of control over our lives - when FF messed up, we handed the reins over to FG and vis versa. It patiently hasn't worked.
But that is a scary thought - our 'Daddy' governments (with the very occasional Mammy) who assured us they knew best turned out to not only be part of the problem, but to have no idea what to do about it except panic measures.
So we, who held those in authority over us in enough esteem to allow them to make major decisions on our behalf, are suddenly faced with the prospect that those in power do not know what they are doing - the next stage is realising the authority rests in US. We need to take control of how our country is run.

We have moving on from the denial stage of 2008/9 and now we are in the anger zone. It could dissipate - or with nurturing we could create a voice that roars for a change. A change that would see us take back our country from the vested interests who debts each and every one of us are currently paying - debts which will be inherited by our children and grandchildren.

The Occupy Movement is all over the place right now - because it is new born. It is listening and learning and rather then impose a voice, it is seeking to combine through consensus all our voices into one.

Currently the people are asking themselves- why are you angry? Why do you despair? Why do you feel powerless in your own country?

There will be rants. There will be venting. There will be fury. There will even be tantrums.

The next stage will be to determine what people actually want from our government.

There will be agendas. There will be pie-in-the-sky dreams. There will be solid, achievable goals we can all agree to. There will be the genesis of a consensus.

Final stage in the dialogue - how do we get what we have agreed we want?

We are at stage one still - but before the Occupy movement I for one had no hope. Now, I genuinely hope we can really turn this benighted little country of ours around and vest power in the people. The Irish are protesting. Quietly, politely, doing a lot of talking...but actually protesting!

If you don't have a dream...how you gonna have a dream come true?

Worztron

JaneHudson wrote: »

Also if they were better able to convey that the protest is being mounted by actual tax-players it would lend a lot more credibility. In the absence of a clearly defined ‘cause’, the only discussion that is being generated seems to be about the demographic of the protesters.

The prosters are showing solidarity with the other occupy movements around the world. Just becase they may be unemployed - they still have a right to protest and are still CITIZENS!

Bannasidhe

Perhaps they maybe should have their payslips or P60s on display? Perhaps a laminated badge?
That is some skill people have to be able to tell who is employed and who isn't among a group of people of both genders and varying ages while they are all wearing waterproofs - oh...I get it - they're all unemployed...better tell the people I know who go there on their day off work to stop so or they might confound some people's expectations....:D

JaneHudson

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Perhaps they maybe should have their payslips or P60s on display? Perhaps a laminated badge?
That is some skill people have to be able to tell who is employed and who isn't among a group of people of both genders and varying ages while they are all wearing waterproofs - oh...I get it - they're all unemployed...better tell the people I know who go there on their day off work to stop so or they might confound some people's expectations....:D

That's what I'm trying to tell you. DO confound people's expectations. Enlighten. Inform. Dispell the misinformation, I'm sure a placard or two would help. From your agressive and sarcastic reaction it seems I have somehow offended you with this suggestion.

Bannasidhe

JaneHudson wrote: »

That's what I'm trying to tell you. Dispell the misinformation, I'm sure a placard or two would help. From your agressive and sarcastic reaction it seems I have somehow offended you with this suggestion.

I find the suggestion offensive. Why should anyone have to provide personal financial information to strangers? Everyone who purchases anything in this country pays VAT - that is a tax! Those on SW spend their money in the community - and pay VAT on their purchases. Do those who are intent on spreading misinformation really believe only those who are in the PAYE net have the right to comment on how our country is run? That the close to 1/4 unemployed have no say? That the self-employed have no say? The retired? The disabled? Seriously?

JaneHudson

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I find the suggestion offensive. Why should anyone have to provide personal financial information to strangers? Everyone who purchases anything in this country pays VAT - that is a tax! Those on SW spend their money in the community - and pay VAT on their purchases. Do those who are intent on spreading misinformation really believe only those who are in the PAYE net have the right to comment on how our country is run? That the close to 1/4 unemployed have no say? That the self-employed have no say? The retired? The disabled? Seriously?

Sadly the stereotype of 'professional protester' would be a narcissistic person who is well able to, but considers themselves to creative or revolutionary, etc. to work an average job. It wouldn't really refer to anyone who legitimately needs SW or is prepared to work.
Hopefully this is the exception rather than the rule anyway.

Bannasidhe

JaneHudson wrote: »

Sadly the stereotype of 'professional protester' would be a narcissistic person who is well able to, but considers themselves to creative or revolutionary, etc. to work an average job. It wouldn't really refer to anyone who legitimately needs SW or is prepared to work.
Hopefully this is the exception rather than the rule anyway.

How's this by way of challenging misconceptions?:

Message posted on Occupy Cork's Facebook page at 16:30 today

Occupy CORK
Timetable change this evening - Screening of "The Shock Doctrine" at 8, and a postponement of the talk on the ideas of non-politics. Apologies everyone, the person who was to chair/introduce the topic has had to cancel due to work commitments.

RadioClash

The default setting of Irish people who see a protest is to deride them as 'freeloaders' or 'crusties'. I went down to the camp Saturday and met plenty of people that were well educated, and are or were working in decent jobs. Fact is you don't know what these people do, you're just guessing.

It provides a civil forum for people to voice their opinions, as opposed to the barstool or your couch shouting at Pat Kenny. They're not violent like protesters in Greece, and they keep their space clean. In fact the park is probably cleaner than it's ever been.

If you don't like where your society is going, get down there some evening or weekend and contribute and have your opinion aired. That's what the point of the place is, and it's better than your water cooler at work.

Sonics2k

RoverJames wrote: »

lol

Plenty of folk are employed without the bit of paper dude.

Show me these miracle jobs, I keep hearing about them but never see them advertised.

Every singly position I've seen advertised here in Cork require certain certificates and a certain amount of proven experience in the field. I do not have the option of leaving this city or even country, my children are here and due to circumstances I am separated from their mother.

Now yes, I can probably go to the U.K, U.S. or Australia and get work there, but that is not an option.

Corkblowin wrote: »

I’m don’t know anything about you – but I keep hearing these kind of statements and its drives me mad!!!. You’re a genius but because you haven’t ‘a piece of paper’ you’re barred from the jobs market and you can’t go back to college because its 9 months away.

So it’s the systems fault you’ve no job and people like me who got off our backsides and got our ‘bits of paper’ are just sheep and we ‘don’t really know whats going on’. Rubbish. Well I’m sorry for you, but you didn’t have the piece of paper this time last year either – why aren’t you in college now instead of complaining that its 9 months away??

Even the dismissive way you describe the hard work of thousands of people as ‘bits of paper’ makes my blood boil. Do many hanging out in the tents know what hard work is?

Well my first degree wasn’t helping me to find a job either – but rather than hang around blaming the system I worked in a crappy full time job and went back to college at night to better myself – because I’m not going to rely on anyone else for my wellbeing, nor am I going to get mad because the career I had envisaged for myself did not arise – it was my choice and just because I did it doesn’t mean I’m owed anything. Life doesn’t work like that.

I had a job, nothing special but it was decent, I had friends there and paid quite well.Unfortunately I was laid off literally a week before the recession kicked in back in 2009.

Now, I've trained to do a few jobs over the years. For example I was in my 3rd year of a hairdressing apprenticeship and was doing quite well, but I did have to quit that as it turned out I was highly allergic to a lot of the chemicals used. Ah well, and I moved on to get training in management with Xtra-Vision. My predicament now is I only have about a years experience in it, and so most places down here require 3-4 which is fair enough.

Last Feb I applied to UCC to do Law and unfortunately did not get in, so during this year I'll be spending my time doing various courses in FAS and whatnot to help me into College.

Now, I am not ragging on people who have the "piece of paper" for a Qualification. I am however ragging on the numerous morons who have it, but still have very little idea of how to technically do the jobs. Sure they know the theory, but I have quite a few very close friends who often ring me for advice on how to solve problems.

A lot of the people sitting in those tents do have full time jobs, but they spend their free time and days off being apart of Occupy Cork, and for that I respect them greatly because they are putting a face to the people involved.

You don't need to understand their reasoning for it, but to them and hundreds of thousands more around the world, it's part of their protest against what our society has become.
Yes it has a few crusties and hippys, it also has business owners, parents, grandparents and every-day normal workers there too.

Don't discount an entire movement based on the physical appearance of a few of it's members.

goldie fish

I hope they will move in time for the November ceremony at the war memorial.

Bannasidhe

goldie fish wrote: »

I hope they will move in time for the November ceremony at the war memorial.

Well, I asked my great Uncle (aged 96) if he minded the camp being there given he is the oldest surviving relative of someone honoured on the monument (his uncle was Corneilus O Donovan, Irish Guards). He stated that his uncle died for the Freedom Of Small Nations and the occupiers are there, in his opinion, to fight to free a small nation.

goldie fish

So they will move aside and take part in the ceremonies?

Bannasidhe

goldie fish wrote: »

So they will move aside and take part in the ceremonies?

I have no idea - you could ask them. All I said was the oldest living relative of a person honoured on the monument thinks it is fitting they are camping there.

RadioClash

RadioClash wrote: »

..............In fact the park is probably cleaner than it's ever been...............

The grass will be ruined, it is public property which is now more or less a campsite, why these "occupy Cork" protesters/whatever they go by aren't moved on I cannot understand. Will they return the park to its pre occupied condition when they move off? I doubt it.

Also if any of them are on job seekers allowance they are obviously not job seeking while there, unless they hand out CVs during the day and do an interview or two.

Sonics2k

Sonics2k wrote: »

Show me these miracle jobs, I keep hearing about them but never see them advertised.

Every singly position I've seen advertised here in Cork require certain certificates and a certain amount of proven experience in the field. I do not have the option of leaving this city or even country, my children are here and due to circumstances I am separated from their mother.

.....................

Lots of manufacturing sites take on contract production staff from time to time. If you honestly think you need a qualification to perform every advertised job you simply don't want to work.

Retail outlets will be taking on staff for Christmas too.

Sonics2k

RoverJames wrote: »

Lots of manufacturing sites take on contract production staff from time to time. If you honestly think you need a qualification to perform every advertised job you simply don't want to work.

Retail outlets will be taking on staff for Christmas too.

Yeah no ****. I was clearly talking about getting a proper job in IT, not the GateCinema or Bosco's out in Douglas Road.

Judes

When I have gone through various bouts of unemployment in the past I couldn't be over-fussy - a job was a job - I may have been over-qualified - I may have been doing the type of work I wouldn't have considered - but it was work. Sometimes we have to swallow our pride and take on anything to keep us going. Also, as much as I feel sorry for the "youth" of today having to contemplate leaving their home for distant lands - I had to do it in the 80's as did most of my friends - and returned. My parents did it in the 60's and later returned. Every generation in this country has had to suffer the heartache and heartbreak of leaving friends and families. But it made us all stronger more independent people and more ready to stand up and fight for a good cause - when properly explained.

We're all going to have different views - it's what makes the world go round.
I understand where JaneHudson was coming from - if the protestors are trying to attract support - then visibly show us what they are fighting for - bigger placards - more approachable people giving out leaflets to explain what they are representing. At the present time I walk past every day and I find it all very intimidating.

And I didn't think you could take over a public place and make it into a short/long term abode as the protestors are doing off The Mall. I find it a bit difficult to stomach that the protestors are being viewed as heroes and comparable to those who sacrified their lives and died fighting for their country/world peace. I have visited war graves throughout Europe and have stood at the Menin Gate to pay my respects to all those who died for us. Brave young men and women. Really, don't compare them.

There are problems in London at present at St. Paul's Cathedral, a huge tourist attraction, generating a lot of money, keeping people in jobs - as the protestors have taken over the area so people cannot access St. Paul's. How is that helping the economy?

And I meant to reply to previous emailers - but I didn't go crazy on plastic - infact I don't have a credit card. When I stated "we" I meant a lot of people -but I wasn't even within that bracket. I have canvassed for a political party over the years and during the "good times" everyone was soooooo happy - they didn't question the problem with the Health Services, Banking, Motor Industry, everyone thought "ah sure everything is wonderful". So I do think we're all to blame - we let things get to this stage - we should have all been questioning sooner - and during the good times.

So to the protestors - something more constructive to get their message across, then they may get more support and sympathisers.

Buataisi

I'd love to go camping like those lads, but I'm too busy looking for a job.

evilivor

Judes wrote: »

There are problems in London at present at St. Paul's Cathedral, a huge tourist attraction, generating a lot of money, keeping people in jobs - as the protestors have taken over the area so people cannot access St. Paul's. How is that helping the economy?

Apparently most of the London protestors - up to 90% - are going home at night rather than camping out on the nasty, hard, capitalist pavement.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5gJ_e48YT8ofmXv7WseylZCMhmk4Q?docId=B8048001319537829A00

Sonics2k

Sonics2k wrote: »

Yeah no ****. I was clearly talking about getting a proper job in IT, not the GateCinema or Bosco's out in Douglas Road.

Oh really, was it that clear.
Your attitude to jobs is very elitist for someone with no qualifications.

corkcomp

I dont get get where this debate is going TBH.. I know of several jobs where they dont require qualifications / paper, mainly unskilled jobs or jobs where the employer is willing to teach you on the job. @Sonics2k you mention a proper job in IT, of course your going to need qualifications for a job like that, most employers arent willing to take the risk taking on someone with no formal proof of competence. Luckily im not job hunting but if I was id take what I could get, the gate cinema beats social welfare anyway:)

Sonics2k

corkcomp wrote: »

I dont get get where this debate is going TBH.. I know of several jobs where they dont require qualifications / paper, mainly unskilled jobs or jobs where the employer is willing to teach you on the job. @Sonics2k you mention a proper job in IT, of course your going to need qualifications for a job like that, most employers arent willing to take the risk taking on someone with no formal proof of competence. Luckily im not job hunting but if I was id take what I could get, the gate cinema beats social welfare anyway:)

Oh I'm aware that companies want people to have the experience and a piece of paper, which is exactly why I'll be going to College to get it.

In the mean time though, and let's focus on the Occupy movement instead of me getting a job :pac:

Gigiwagga

Worztron wrote: »

We will default eventually.

Nothing has changed, not a single white collar crook is being brought to justice. So when the next bank bailout happens are we the public to also pay that?

We have many natural resources like gas & oil. That should raise a few billion Euros. We should also be concentrating on indigenous industry like bringing back the sugar factories rather than brown nosing to the greedy corporations that want to make a quick buck.

Are you in favor of paying back unguaranteed bond holders? The rich idiots gambled and lost and still want their cash back. :mad:

Hey Quick question...how much tax do you pay personally, every year, roughly, as a combined figure PAYE+Car Tax etc? I would like to get a handle on how much you personally pay.
Apart from that I agree with much of what you say re the bondholders I was just wondering about this.
And I was also wondering how much most of the occupy cork group are being fleeced by every week, how many of them actually contribute to society generally as in Pay Taxes, because taxes pay for the amenities we all seem to take for granted.
I pay a lot of tax every year €20,000 approx as a self employed individual, I broke my ass paying for my house, which I now own. I break my ass everyday, I deeply resent the greedy bastards that wrecked this country, I also resent layabouts who protest for the sake of protesting, and have nothing worthwhile to offer, two different kinds of waster don't make for one good person.

And yes I totally agree our natural resources have been stolen from us and we should take them back!

goldie fish

Gigiwagga wrote: »

Hey Quick question...how much tax do you pay personally, every year, roughly, as a combined figure PAYE+Car Tax etc? I would like to get a handle on how much you personally pay.
Apart from that I agree with much of what you say re the bondholders I was just wondering about this.
And I was also wondering how much most of the occupy cork group are being fleeced by every week, how many of them actually contribute to society generally as in Pay Taxes, because taxes pay for the amenities we all seem to take for granted.
I pay a lot of tax every year €20,000 approx as a self employed individual, I broke my ass paying for my house, which I now own. I break my ass everyday, I deeply resent the greedy bastards that wrecked this country, I also resent layabouts who protest for the sake of protesting, and have nothing worthwhile to offer, two different kinds of waster don't make for one good person.

And yes I totally agree our natural resources have been stolen from us and we should take them back!

Have they been stolen from "us"? Have "we" the means to extract them, and sell them? Surely what is happening is we are letting someone with the means and expertise onto our land to extract our resources, and they will give us a percentage of their profit, after they have got their money back first?
Is that not unreasonable?