Occupy Cork

RadioClash

Gigiwagga wrote: »

Hey Quick question...how much tax do you pay personally, every year, roughly, as a combined figure PAYE+Car Tax etc? I would like to get a handle on how much you personally pay.
Apart from that I agree with much of what you say re the bondholders I was just wondering about this.
And I was also wondering how much most of the occupy cork group are being fleeced by every week, how many of them actually contribute to society generally as in Pay Taxes, because taxes pay for the amenities we all seem to take for granted.
I pay a lot of tax every year €20,000 approx as a self employed individual, I broke my ass paying for my house, which I now own. I break my ass everyday, I deeply resent the greedy bastards that wrecked this country, I also resent layabouts who protest for the sake of protesting, and have nothing worthwhile to offer, two different kinds of waster don't make for one good person.

And yes I totally agree our natural resources have been stolen from us and we should take them back!

Go down and ask them all of that, you might be surprised. As I said, I met a few people down there whose backgrounds may surprise you. What's the tax threshold below which a protester becomes a waster anyway? If they were unemployed it does not preclude them from the right to protest (some of them are I'm sure, actual unemployment is running at around 20% after all)

I think the protest is great. It's peaceful, organised, clean and provides a space for debate and imagination for our national (and global) problems. It's better than talking sh*te down the pub , and I'd rather people making a bit of noise than emigrating. Irish people are far too reticent to openly and honestly express things politically in public. The political system isn't responsive to people's needs, it's too busy trying to please the all mighty markets.This represents a bit of a change in culture, and I welcome it.

Gigiwagga

RadioClash wrote: »

Go down and ask them all of that, you might be surprised. As I said, I met a few people down there whose backgrounds may surprise you. What's the tax threshold below which a protester becomes a waster anyway? If they were unemployed it does not preclude them from the right to protest (some of them are I'm sure, actual unemployment is running at around 20% after all)

I think the protest is great. It's peaceful, organised, clean and provides a space for debate and imagination for our national (and global) problems. It's better than talking sh*te down the pub , and I'd rather people making a bit of noise than emigrating. Irish people are far too reticent to openly and honestly express things politically in public. The political system isn't responsive to people's needs, it's too busy trying to please the all mighty markets.This represents a bit of a change in culture, and I welcome it.

We're concerned about backgrounds now?...as regards protest and tax level well much the same as political vexations, if I refuse to vote or take part in the political process how can I then complain about government. Like everybody else I feel strung-up by the banks and the developers, I lived frugally during the boom, essentially because I didn't trust what I could see happening. Since the recession I have participated in several protest marches, I've protested directly to managers at AIB in person and to AIB head office in dublin, I've protested in person to my local elected reps on several occasions.
Perception is everything unfortunately, as someone earlier in the thread suggested, until couples with their belongings are on the streets having lost their homes etc the general public will grimace at the perceived 'crowd' on the mall because 'they're not like us' and 'they don't represent us' because 'they don't look like us' Until those tents are filled with 'ordinary looking' people this perception will continue, I'm certain of that.

Sorry to be a troll and all but ...

RadioClash

Gigiwagga wrote: »

We're concerned about backgrounds now?...as regards protest and tax level well much the same as political vexations, if I refuse to vote or take part in the political process how can I then complain about government. Like everybody else I feel strung-up by the banks and the developers, I lived frugally during the boom, essentially because I didn't trust what I could see happening. Since the recession I have participated in several protest marches, I've protested directly to managers at AIB in person and to AIB head office in dublin, I've protested in person to my local elected reps on several occasions.
Perception is everything unfortunately, as someone earlier in the thread suggested, until couples with their belongings are on the streets having lost their homes etc the general public will grimace at the perceived 'crowd' on the mall because 'they're not like us' and 'they don't represent us' because 'they don't look like us' Until those tents are filled with 'ordinary looking' people this perception will continue, I'm certain of that.

Sorry to be a troll and all but ...

I get your point, but I'm clean shaven and 'ordinary' looking and I've been knocking around there at various points the past week or so. People in tents in the cold aren't going to look like schoolteachers. I don't know why nice middle class people don't buy into it, they're being put through the ringer at the moment. A General election every five years a democracy does not make, it requires constant engagement from an informed citizenry.

As for voting, well today they had a workshop(or talk for want of a better word) on the two referendums as I was passing, so I presume at least a few of them headed down to the polling booth.

Worztron

Gigiwagga wrote: »

Hey Quick question...how much tax do you pay personally, every year, roughly, as a combined figure PAYE+Car Tax etc? I would like to get a handle on how much you personally pay.
Apart from that I agree with much of what you say re the bondholders I was just wondering about this.
And I was also wondering how much most of the occupy cork group are being fleeced by every week, how many of them actually contribute to society generally as in Pay Taxes, because taxes pay for the amenities we all seem to take for granted.
I pay a lot of tax every year €20,000 approx as a self employed individual, I broke my ass paying for my house, which I now own. I break my ass everyday, I deeply resent the greedy bastards that wrecked this country, I also resent layabouts who protest for the sake of protesting, and have nothing worthwhile to offer, two different kinds of waster don't make for one good person.

And yes I totally agree our natural resources have been stolen from us and we should take them back!

Well we agree on some matters but not all. I am not disclosing what I pay, that is personal info. Occupy Cork is not about those that work or don't work. Everyone pays tax via VAT.
We are citizens first and tax payers a distant second.
You seem to have an overall negative view of protesters. The 'layabouts' as you describe them did not wreck this country.

Owen

Worztron wrote: »

The 'layabouts' as you describe them did not wreck this country.

Neither did Fine Gael (And I'm no FG supporter), yet Kamp Krusty has signs saying 'Corrupt Government'. I find it odd to think that they believe they have better ideas for pulling the country out of recession than educated economists do.

Worztron wrote: »

Everyone pays tax via VAT

Ah here now. That's a weak weak argument. A person might contribute 30 euro in VAT a week to the Government, but if they're then drawing down dole, rent assistance, etc, etc, etc - they're a drain on Society, not a help. I completely understand people genuinely not being able to find work - I've been there, but the permenantly unemployed and unwilling to be employed are not a positive thing to have in any economy.

dunleakelleher

Worztron wrote: »

Everyone pays tax via VAT.
We are citizens first and tax payers a distant second.
.

Question Answered.:rolleyes:

RadioClash

RadioClash wrote: »

................ If they were unemployed it does not preclude them from the right to protest (some of them are I'm sure, actual unemployment is running at around 20% after all)................

Are they available for work while camping down there? Are they actively job seeking? I can't imagine too many of them working full time if they can spend weeks camping next to Electric.

lol at the corrupt government signs, half of them probably voted FF during the boom as they were getting plenty dole and thought 'twas a right good set-up.

goldie fish

Worztron wrote: »

Everyone pays tax via VAT.
We are citizens first and tax payers a distant second.
.

Not necessarily. You can do quite well never buying any product where vat is charged. Most fresh food for example...

Bannasidhe

RoverJames wrote: »

Are they available for work while camping down there? Are they actively job seeking? I can't imagine too many of them working full time if they can spend weeks camping next to Electric.

lol at the corrupt government signs, half of them probably voted FF during the boom as they were getting plenty dole and thought 'twas a right good set-up.

Why don't you go and ask them - or you could continue to conjecture based only on your own prejudices.

Bannasidhe

dunleakelleher wrote: »

Question Answered.:rolleyes:

Good to know there are people out there who believe the concept of equality for all citizens is a :rolleyes: kinda philosophy.


Hey - Clarke, Plunkett, Ceannt, Connolly,Pearse, MacDonagh and Mac Diarmada - sure don't bother with ye're lefty sentiments and talk of equality like

We declare the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland, and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies, to be sovereign and indefeasible...The Republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens, and declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and of all its parts, cherishing all the children of the nation equally,...

dunleakelleher has countered your argument with a resounding :rolleyes:. So that's ye told!

Bannasidhe

Owen wrote: »

Neither did Fine Gael (And I'm no FG supporter), yet Kamp Krusty has signs saying 'Corrupt Government'. I find it odd to think that they believe they have better ideas for pulling the country out of recession than educated economists do.






Ah here now. That's a weak weak argument. A person might contribute 30 euro in VAT a week to the Government, but if they're then drawing down dole, rent assistance, etc, etc, etc - they're a drain on Society, not a help. I completely understand people genuinely not being able to find work - I've been there, but the permenantly unemployed and unwilling to be employed are not a positive thing to have in any economy.

So the views of close to 1/2 a million people should be dismissed as they are, in your opinion, a drain on society, not a help. Are you serious? Lets discount the tax contributions made by at least 400,000 of those who lost their jobs in the economic collapse shall we?
What exactly do you think people on SW spend their income on? It goes straight back into the economy!

I would say the 150 or so TDs on a minimum of over 90,000 a year plus extremely generous expenses just for turning up to work and who thanks to the Whip system are only there to make up the numbers are a more outrageous drain on our society.

Owen

I said nothing of the sort.

Bannasidhe

Owen wrote: »

I said nothing of the sort.

Originally Posted by Owen
if they're then drawing down dole, rent assistance, etc, etc, etc - they're a drain on Society, not a help.

There is another way of interpreting that statement?

Owen

If you read the entire post, you'll see I said I understand genuine people who can't get jobs, been there myself. Its the permanently unwilling to be employed I have an issue with. Now stop turning my post into something you want it to be.

Bannasidhe

Owen wrote: »

If you read the entire post, you'll see I said I understand genuine people who can't get jobs, been there myself. Its the permanently unwilling to be employed I have an issue with. Now stop turning my post into something you want it to be.

I did read all of your post - I am not in the habit of responding unless I have read all of the post in question. So, let us look at those 'unwilling to be unemployed'(aka 'dole scroungers') - what percentage of those make up our current close to 1/2 million on the live register? A very, very small minority. And do you really think those who cannot be bothered to work are going to be bothered camping out in the lashing rain and freezing cold in a Camp that doesn't allow alcohol - surely those layabouts would be down the pub?

You stated the unemployed are a drain on society and called in question the value of their contribution to the tax take - I questioned this statement.
You made a generalisation which implied there was a percentage of those Occupying Cork who are nothing more then dole scroungers - I called you on
it.

I am not twisting anything - I am responding to what you wrote.

Owen

People on the dole are a drain on the state. Thats an unfortunate fact. I'm not belittling anyone, but that's how it is. I've been a drain on the state too.

You accused me in your first post of saying everyone on the dole is a waster. That was a generalisation on your part - and a deliberate partial quote on your behalf designed to twist my words. I called you on it and now you've done an about turn, and said that I'm now saying that a portion of occupy cork are scroungers. That's something I definitely stand by.

If you have anything positive to debate with, bring it on, but if your sole purpose is to childishly turn my posts into what you want them to be, we'll leave it to the mods to decide if that sort of behaviour is acceptable. It certainly doesn't help your credibility in here to resort to tactics like that.

D.U.M.B

goldie fish wrote: »

I hope they will move in time for the November ceremony at the war memorial.

There have been discussions with those involved in occupy cork and those attending the ceremony, who don't mind us being there.

We will move the tents from the immediate vicinity, light some candles (which has been done each day, and the statue respected fully) and supply the people attending with tea and cake.

Those who have been on site coming down to celebrate in November have had no problems with what is happening, as they've seen we're mindful of the statue and also of the celebration that is upcoming.

It's not like we are using that space to act like drunken maggots or disrespect it or the memory of people who fight for their beliefs, quite the opposite.

Those coming down in November seem to respect this.

Bannasidhe

Owen wrote: »

People on the dole are a drain on the state. Thats an unfortunate fact. I'm not belittling anyone, but that's how it is. I've been a drain on the state too.

You accused me in your first post of saying everyone on the dole is a waster. That was a generalisation on your part - and a deliberate partial quote on your behalf designed to twist my words. I called you on it and now you've done an about turn, and said that I'm now saying that a portion of occupy cork are scroungers. That's something I definitely stand by.

If you have anything positive to debate with, bring it on, but if your sole purpose is to childishly turn my posts into what you want them to be, we'll leave it to the mods to decide if that sort of behaviour is acceptable. It certainly doesn't help your credibility in here to resort to tactics like that.

This is what I am questioning - as this is a debate the onus is one you to provide evidence in support of your statement - asking you to do this is not childishly turning your posts into anything - it is questioning a statement you made and are standing by. It does my credibility no harm to ask you to provide evidence of your claim - it does your credibility no good to call my credibility into question, issue an implied threat re:MODS and fail to provide evidence for an assertion you have made during a debate when asked to.

Owen

There's no such 'rule' or 'onus' on me to prove anything. It's pretty stupid to ask me to prove it ... The only way to do that would be to have access to the social welfare system. This is a forum, we're all entitled to our opinions, and to voice them. I've voiced mine.

Sonics2k

Owen wrote: »

There's no such 'rule' or 'onus' on me to prove anything. It's pretty stupid to ask me to prove it ... The only way to do that would be to have access to the social welfare system. This is a forum, we're all entitled to our opinions, and to voice them. I've voiced mine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof

If you make an accusation or statement such as you did, especially during a debate, you need to back up your statement.

You accused all the people down at Occupy Cork as Dole Scroungers, with nothing to back up your statement. You stated it as a fact, not an opinion.

Ah here now. That's a weak weak argument. A person might contribute 30 euro in VAT a week to the Government, but if they're then drawing down dole, rent assistance, etc, etc, etc - they're a drain on Society, not a help. I completely understand people genuinely not being able to find work - I've been there, but the permenantly unemployed and unwilling to be employed are not a positive thing to have in any economy.

This is a statement of fact, not opinion. Therefore, you are required to back up your statement with evidence, not circumstantial opinion.

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Why don't you go and ask them - or you could continue to conjecture based only on your own prejudices.

No need to, we have one of them on here
Conjecture me arse, most in full time employment have rent to pay, a car to run etc etc so can't afford to be off work protesting, also most employers wouldn't be into giving someone weeks off unless it is their holidays.

D.U.M.B wrote: »

There have been discussions with those involved in occupy cork and those attending the ceremony, who don't mind us being there.

We will move the tents from the immediate vicinity, light some candles (which has been done each day, and the statue respected fully) and supply the people attending with tea and cake............

D.U.M.B., of those in occupy Cork how many are on job seekers allowance? Of those are they actively seeking work while protesting? Those in full time employment, how did they get so much time off work?

charlemont

Fair play to those protesters, At least they got off their ass to protest rather then taking it in the ass like the rest of the whingers..

I was down there last Friday night and I seen one of Corks most famous dole card carrying characters Bag O' Cans try to join in but he was told where to go.

Sonics2k

RoverJames wrote: »

No need to, we have one of them on here
Conjecture me arse, most in full time employment have rent to pay, a car to run etc etc so can't afford to be off work protesting, also most employers wouldn't be into giving someone weeks off unless it is their holidays.

Dole scroungers are typically known for sitting around at home, watching Sky and lazying around.
These guys are sitting in the freezing cold by choice.
Now, it doesn't really matter that in your opinion it's not going to help the situation with the country, but to them it does help and will make a difference.
Why do you feel the need to be aggressive and insult people who are doing what is, in their opinion, a good way of voicing their opinion on the Government?

RoverJames wrote: »

D.U.M.B., of those in occupy Cork how many are on job seekers allowance? Of those are they actively seeking work while protesting? Those in full time employment, how did they get so much time off work?

A few of them down there are in full time employment, they simply go down on their days off to help out.

Now, I'm not going to claim that none of them are dole scroungers or not seeking work, because it wouldn't be true. But a lot of them are seeking work, or are working, or are in College and are contributing fully to society.

At least these people are willing to openly stand on the street and say "We are not happy with this Government" because that is one of the biggest flaws of Irish society, we never push back against the Government and remind them that actually, we are in charge, not the Dail.

Sonics2k

Sonics2k wrote: »

.....................
Why do you feel the need to be aggressive and insult people who are doing what is, in their opinion, a good way of voicing their opinion on the Government?...............................
Now, I'm not going to claim that none of them are dole scroungers or not seeking work, because it wouldn't be true. But a lot of them are seeking work, or are working, or are in College and are contributing fully to society.

...............

Where was I aggressive Mr The People with bit of Paper took me Job ? I was replying to someone about my alleged "conjecture"
I'm simply querying how anyone can be actively seeking employment when camped outside electric.

btw, the irony is unreal ...

Sonics2k wrote: »

Yeah no ****. I was clearly talking about getting a proper job in IT, not the GateCinema or Bosco's out in Douglas Road.

Bannasidhe

RoverJames wrote: »

Where was I aggressive Mr The People with bit of Paper took me Job ? I was replying to someone about my alleged "conjecture"
I'm simply querying how anyone can be actively seeking employment when camped outside electric.

btw, the irony is unreal ...

Being at a Camp does not preclude one from job hunting - they are grand and close to town to see if there are any vacancies. Have easy access to FAS on the Coal Quay. Can read the papers, email CVs etc. Should they get an interview there is nothing to prevent them going home, putting on the formal clothes and attending an interview.

Actually - IMHO your attitude to Sonics2k is aggressive, patronising,dismissive and insulting.

54kroc

Owen, wtf is wrong with you?
How dare you accuse all the people down at Occupy Cork as Dole Scroungers.

In future please address them as Dole Monkeys, bitter, useless, Dole Monkeys.

Sonics2k

RoverJames wrote: »

Where was I aggressive Mr The People with bit of Paper took me Job ? I was replying to someone about my alleged "conjecture"
I'm simply querying how anyone can be actively seeking employment when camped outside electric.

btw, the irony is unreal ...

Apologies, the statement of people being aggressive wasn't necessarily aimed at you, but at some posters here in general.

I'm actually quite surprised that, despite people here acknowledging the country is quite messed up, they still choose to take their aggression out on the people at Occupy.

Also, I never said "People with the bit of paper took my job", I said "I cannot get the job I want because I don't have the piece of paper" and then went on to say I plan on getting it. If you're going to cherry pick out comments, please attempt to do it properly.

Bannasidhe

The ole tree huggers are a sensitive lot it seems :pac:

Anyway..........

Bannasidhe wrote: »

..........

Actually - IMHO your attitude to Sonics2k is aggressive, patronising,dismissive and insulting.

Sonics2k

Sonics2k wrote: »

Apologies, the statement of people being aggressive wasn't necessarily aimed at you, but at some posters here in general.

.........

Fair play

I only went on about the bit of paper in response to the aggressive comment.

54kroc

RoverJames wrote: »

The ole tree huggers are a sensitive lot it seems :pac:

Anyway..........

LMAO