New book claims Hitler died in Argentina

HavingCrack

So 99% of historians, some of whom are internationally recognised as leading authorities of the life on Hitler have all been wrong for the last 60 odd years. Out of the blue, two complete unknowns suddenly unearth this. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and so far they have not provided it, because it does not exist I suspect.

LighterGuy

Biggins wrote: »

Have ordered a copy of the book so will be interested to see what evidence if any, they have.

(In the Sky video they mention a number of statements from people that supposedly flew the evil man out and received him at the other end, I hope they back that up with more evidence.)

They've got you now Biggins.
Lets be honest, all this is just to sell some books and make some money.

charlemont

KeithAFC wrote: »

No one said otherwise. Just would not surprise if it was true. Just my view on it.

Your right, Keith. The RCC brought him here to Ireland and De Valera got jealous and had him sent to rural Donegal and there he fathered a son who later grew up to be a great Irish leader,

Gerry Adams.

geetar

HavingCrack wrote: »

So 99% of historians, some of whom are internationally recognised as leading authorities of the life on Hitler have all been wrong for the last 60 odd years. Out of the blue, two complete unknowns suddenly unearth this. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and so far they have not provided it, because it does not exist I suspect.

no where near 99% of historians believe that.



there is little concrete evidence to prove hitler killed himself in his bunker. as has already been said, the alleged skull was infact a females.


the russians were racing with the west to take over berlin, its quite possible that a fabrication involving hitlers death was created inorder to claim victory over the nazi's ahead of the west.

it would be quite an embarrasment to take over berlin to defeat hitler, only to find he had fled the country. its not beyond the scope of stalin to create such a thing, and the west would have no choice but to accept his word as truth.

because of the mystery and lack of proof, conspiracy theories are to be expected. the fact that many high ranking nazi leaders also fled to argentina only helps the conspiracy further.

the lack of evidence also forces historians to accept this possibilty, the winner of the war writes the history books etc.

Ellis Dee

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I think it emerged that the skull in Moscow was female.

Must have been a very butch one with a moustache like that.:eek::eek:

Border-Rat

This book uses pictures from the Berhgof and attempts to pass them off as Hitler living it up in Argentina. Fail.

dttq

4leto wrote: »

A Dan Brown type book, the burned remnants of his skull is in a vault in a Moscow museum.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8281839.stm

Jarren

Hitler was a woman so

I knew it :pac:

Sunnyisland

Just started reading this thread and finding it interesting when I come across keith AFC,Batsy,Wolfe Tone and realise its as old as hitler should be ;-(, Miss all them lads.

Madam_X

policarp wrote: »

Those 2 daughters should be in prison right now, serving a sentence for the sins of their father. . .

That's the policy in North Korea.

Zebra3

KeithAFC wrote: »

The Roman Catholic Church was doing a lot for the Nazi's to escape from Berlin and Germany after the war.

As did the Americans. Taking huge numbers of nazis, making sure they avoided Nuremburg and even giving them jobs in the US. What did the glorious freedom loving British think of that, eh? :rolleyes:

geetar wrote: »

the russians were racing with the west to take over berlin

There was no race. The west left the Soviets to take Berlin.

Biggins

Sooopie wrote: »

http://news.sky.com/home/article/16090144

Currently reading the books and I have to say, unlike Dan Browns books, "The GreyWolf" is very detailed and comes backed up with a whole big chapter/section listing the files and government documentation to back-up what they write.

Degag

Madam_X wrote: »

That's the policy in North Korea.

Well then; we should definately bring that into law here also.

dj jarvis

the_syco wrote: »

The skull that they didn't want anyone to examine until the last few years? That one?

that skull that they have proven NOT to be hitlers - they got it from the garden where gorbells and his wife were found, but DNA from hitlers sisters living relations have shown its not his

Biggins

Border-Rat wrote: »

This book uses pictures from the Berhgof and attempts to pass them off as Hitler living it up in Argentina. Fail.

That would be incorrect - in fact a complete lie. A misrepresentation of whats in the actually book - if necessary I will scan in whats actually in the book to prove this.

The book includes on page 189 TWO pictures.
The top picture is of the Berhgof in Germany - the bottom picture on the same page is a picture of the residence in Patagonia which then states "Hitlers main residence in Patagonia between 1947 and 1955.
Built in 1943, parts of Inalco are modelled on the Berhgof."

The later home to Hitler, was built in a style that Hitler was fond of and influenced by Speer.

If we're going to state whats in the book - get the contents right!

Biggins

dj jarvis wrote: »

that skull that they have proven NOT to be hitlers - they got it from the garden where gorbells and his wife were found, but DNA from hitlers sisters living relations have shown its not his

The skull indeed that was found was not Hitlers, nor is it Eva's even though the skull was from a female.
The now female skull has been found to be from an older person, one much older than Eva was at the time of her supposed death.

The writers of this book are NO Dan Brown.
They have done their homework.
This not a novel. Its not a story book.
"The Grey Wolf" published by Sterling is in fact a comprehensive methodical researched big manuscript which come with much verified evidence - as mentioned already, a lot of which is included at the back - and there is not one conclusion that is come to by one source but in order to be sure of what they wrote, they used many separate verifiable sources, much of which is also listed in detail and where its to be found by further independent assessor and readers.

dj jarvis

4leto wrote: »

No idea, I just remember a thing on discovery about it, the guy held a skull which was slightly burned in places.

He didn't get to Argentina The russians had the whole area besieged, his dog wouldn't have even got out. His last days are all well documented and widely witnessed, this book will fulfil its mission and sell well.

But it is bullhsit.

he could have got out , easy many many others did escape , some never found , even a plane was landed in the main srtip of the tiergarten park ,

quote

During the evening of 28 April von Greim and Reitsch flew out of Berlin from the same improvised airstrip in an Arado Ar 96 trainer. Von Greim was ordered to get the Luftwaffe to attack the Soviet forces that had just reached Potsdamer Platz and to make sure Heinrich Himmler was punished for his treachery in making unauthorised contact with the Western Allies.[5] Fearing that Hitler was escaping in the plane, troops of the Soviet 3rd Shock Army, which was fighting its way through the Tiergarten from the north, tried to shoot the Arado down but failed, and the plane took off successfully.[6][7]

so if they could get out , why not hitler ??? , me i think he died in berlin , but to say he could not get out is the only real bull****

dj jarvis

KeithAFC wrote: »

Would not surprise me if it was true though. So many Nazi's escaped to Argentina. The Roman Catholic Church was doing a lot for the Nazi's to escape from Berlin and Germany after the war. So it could be possible with Hitler.

you are incorrect - the rc helped Germans escape from italy to south america , they had nothing to do with them getting from Berlin - Germany or anywhere else for that matter - they had to arrive at a relgious orders residence in rome, then they were helped

and to say that the RC officially helped the Nazis escape is far from he truth keith - individuals did - but was NEVER sponsored by the church itself

but the Americans - British and Russians did help 100 times the amount of Nazis escape death than the RC ever did , but you taking a swipe at the RC - well keith you would think you have some kind of bigoted agenda ?

if your going to spew that **** at least try be factual

indioblack

Zebra3 wrote: »

As did the Americans. Taking huge numbers of nazis, making sure they avoided Nuremburg and even giving them jobs in the US. What did the glorious freedom loving British think of that, eh? :rolleyes:

What's with the sarcasm?

Biggins

Just as Sadam Hussain, Gadaffi, Winston Churchill and others had body-doubles (and this is on historic record) for security reasons, Hitler had a number of them too. Some are named in the book. The one that eventually died (he didn't know his death was coming) was Gustav Weber who had been standing in for Hitler since July 20th 1944.

On page 156 the book goes into in detail how after the stoke of midnight April 28th, 1945, while the occupants of a level in the Fuhrerbunker slept, Hitler, his actual real dog (Blondi), Eva, Bormann (remember him?), Fegelein and six trusted soldiers from the SS guard battalion "Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler" slipped out through a passage in the Vorbunker and up to his private quarters in the old Reich Chancellery building.

The passage was the modern day equivalent of a passage to a safe room - only those using it that night were doing so, in the opposite direction for their own means.

It should be noted that Hermann Fegelein reportedly was shot the day after Hitler's supposed death for "desertion" - this version of events came about because Fegelein previously had left the Reich Chancellery bunker complex and was caught by one SS-Obersturmbannführer Peter Högl in his Berlin apartment on 27 April, wearing civilian clothes, carrying out preparations to do the escaping. He was carrying cash—German and foreign—and jewellery, some of which belonged to Eva Braun.
The arrest done in error, was quickly reversed and covered-up, a cover-story then explained to ensure Hitlers escape, was instigated and continued unabated.

Elmer Blooker

He's still around. He was an Arsenal supporter but switched to Man United when they went into decline.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54oQPsaCd70

indioblack

Biggins wrote: »

The skull indeed that was found was not Hitlers, nor is it Eva's even though the skull was from a female.
The now female skull has been found to be from an older person, one much older than Eva was at the time of her supposed death.

The writers of this book are NO Dan Brown.
They have done their homework.
This not a novel. Its not a story book.
"The Grey Wolf" published by Sterling is infact a comprehensive methodical researched big manuscript which come with much verified evidence - as mentioned already, a lot of which is included at the back - and there is not one conclusion that is come to by one source but in order to be sure of what they wrote, they used many separate verifiable sources, much of which is also listed in detail and where its to be found by further independent assessor and readers.

I wonder if Hitler would have wanted to leave Berlin? The game was up, Germany defeated, the dream over.
He could have escaped - but to do what?
What would he become? A focus for those regretting the outcome of the third Reich?
Can't imagine him living quietly as an old man.
If in fact he did escape to live in South America not only would the history books have to be re-written, but also, I think, our assessment of his character.

Aenaes

Accounts say Bormann left the bunker with Axmann and SS doctor Stumpfegger on the night of May 1st.
Axmann says Bormann and Stumfegger were killed, although doubts surrounded his sole testimony.
In 1972, 2 bodies were uncovered a short distance away from where Axmann says the two men were killed and tests confirmed the bodies as those belonging to Bormann and Stumpfegger (although there is doubts/controversy about this, as with almost everything.)

If he left with Hitler, doesn't Bormann need a body double now aswell?

Wibbs

dj jarvis wrote: »

he could have got out , easy many many others did escape , some never found , even a plane was landed in the main srtip of the tiergarten park ,

so if they could get out , why not hitler ??? , me i think he died in berlin , but to say he could not get out is the only real bull****

+1 Like you I'm pretty sure he died in the bunker, but the idea he couldn't have gotten out of Berlin at least isn't entirely accurate. In Hanna Reitsch's writings she mentions discussing a rescue attempt with Hans Rudel(top decorated pilot of the war). Rudel says similar in his own book. He reckoned he could have gotten in and out using a Stuka(because they were armoured and could take mad damage and keep flying and had the best brakes of the German planes so could land pretty short). I suppose he reckoned it was a goer as he had been decorated more than once because of mad crazy rescues under fire of his fellow pilots who crashed behind enemy lines, so he'd be loopy enough to try. TBH I dunno how they fitted his balls into the planes he flew. PLus HItler trusted him implicitly. Hitlers personal pilot Hans Baur was no slouch either. He stayed with hitler until he killed himself and was picked up by the soviets who were concerned hitler had done a runner.

That said unless there is one mahhooosive cover up and they all kept quiet I doubt it happened. Possible I suppose as those named were ardent Nazis and firm supporters of Hitler to the end. Then again there were plenty in the bunker who had lost faith or at least would fold under questioning, enough to let the cat outa the bag.

What does the book if anything say about them Biggins?

EchoO

The sensational claims have already been ridiculed by historians, including Mr Walters, who has studied Nazi Germany extensively and written a series of books about the war.
He labelled the idea that Hitler lived in South America until the 1960s as the ‘worst sort of junk history’ that relied on ‘dubious secondary sources.’
He said: 'The theory that Hitler survived rubbishes decades of research by proper historians and intelligence officers.
'The two authors should be ashamed of themselves for peddling this kind of utter nonsense. It's simply unbelievable that publishers would give them the time of day.
'It's an absolute disgrace. There's no substance to it at all. It appeals to the deluded fantasies of conspiracy theorists and has no place whatsoever in historical research.
'There have been thousands of theories over the years that Hitler might have escaped but they are nothing more than parlor games.
'The evidence that Hitler was killed in simply overwhelming. For these authors to claim otherwise is simply staggering.'
Mr Walters conceded that the authors are right in stating that the skull taken by the Russians was not that of Hitler.
He said: 'There were many people in the bunker and it takes a giant leap of the imagination to get from a museum in Russia to him living a life in Argentina.
'The idea that everybody in the bunker was in on the plan is infeasible. It just would not have happened.
'The whole point of Hitler was that he would die after the war. It was not in his psychology to carry on living in Argentina.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2050137/Did-Hitler-Eva-Braun-flee-Berlin-die-old-age-Argentina.html#ixzz26Xnywtpf

.

Biggins

indioblack wrote: »

I wonder if Hitler would have wanted to leave Berlin? The game was up, Germany defeated, the dream over.
He could have escaped - but to do what?
What would he become? A focus for those regretting the outcome of the third Reich?
Can't imagine him living quietly as an old man.
If in fact he did escape to live in South America not only would the history books have to be re-written, but also, I think, our assessment of his character.

The country that the main culprits ended up in, became very rich between 1943 and '45 in particular.
There are a number of reasons as to why and what the future was supposed to hold for those escaping but whatever those reasons, keep the following in mind and this is only a typical example:

Bormann was able to create 980 front companies, with 770 of those in neutral countries including 98 alone in Argentina. There were to handle many, many businesses created and/or invested in. Bormann was a financial genius (By 1945, Bormann had amassed alone, some 16 million in Swedish Kroner & 12 million in Turkish Lira)
One section of the book (with great detail and documentation provided) goes on to explain the staggering - and it is really staggering! - wealth amassed and how it was diversified later (look up "Project Eagle Flight", the acquisition of shares/equity in foreign countries).

Biggins

EchoO wrote: »

The sensational claims have already been ridiculed by historians, including Mr Walters, who has studied Nazi Germany extensively and written a series of books about the war.
He labelled the idea that Hitler lived in South America until the 1960s as the ‘worst sort of junk history’ that relied on ‘dubious secondary sources.’
He said: 'The theory that Hitler survived rubbishes decades of research by proper historians and intelligence officers.
'The two authors should be ashamed of themselves for peddling this kind of utter nonsense. It's simply unbelievable that publishers would give them the time of day.
'It's an absolute disgrace. There's no substance to it at all. It appeals to the deluded fantasies of conspiracy theorists and has no place whatsoever in historical research.
'There have been thousands of theories over the years that Hitler might have escaped but they are nothing more than parlor games.
'The evidence that Hitler was killed in simply overwhelming. For these authors to claim otherwise is simply staggering.'
Mr Walters conceded that the authors are right in stating that the skull taken by the Russians was not that of Hitler.
He said: 'There were many people in the bunker and it takes a giant leap of the imagination to get from a museum in Russia to him living a life in Argentina.
'The idea that everybody in the bunker was in on the plan is infeasible. It just would not have happened.
'The whole point of Hitler was that he would die after the war. It was not in his psychology to carry on living in Argentina.'

If one actually bothers to read the book, a lot of what this Mr Walters states is wrong, and is explained in detail and backed-up.
FULL STOP.

Mr Walters doesn't bother his arse to explain many government documents (copies of which are included in the book and not refuted) which back-up the writers words.
Mr Walters quickly skips over that part - why? - maybe because for all his own previous work, he don't like the idea that a part of it concering 1945 might actually be wrong and he (and others with hurt egos) be exposed as being wrong?

The theory that Hitler survived rubbishes decades of research by proper historians and intelligence officers.

Does he mean the same or other later intelligence officers which later state in secret archives, a different version of events in detail?

'The evidence that Hitler was killed in simply overwhelming.

No its not.
The evidence that someone with the appearance of Hitler was killed is known.
The evidence of the supposed Hitler death in the bunker, has never been proved.
In fact there is question - much question over the very person who supposedly reported his supposed death.

It was not in his psychology to carry on living in Argentina.'

Right... because Mr Walters was/is now a professional headshrink.

Maybe Mr Walters would care to explain the GNP of the country rocketing during and after the later years of WW2 seeing as he's now an expert in everything!

He said: 'There were many people in the bunker and it takes a giant leap of the imagination to get from a museum in Russia to him living a life in Argentina.

Yes, there was many people in the bunker - but as Hitlers level/section was not as public thoroughfare, very few of them actually would see him.
The "Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler" were not going around telling everyone about the access Hitler had built for emergencies previously (to go from above in case of plane bombing alone) to the lower private level.

As even stated above:

Mr Walters conceded that the authors are right in stating that the skull taken by the Russians was not that of Hitler.

Good - he got something right, although I guess he admits this reluctantly - that Hitlers skull was NEVER in a museum in the first place!

Maybe Mr Walters would care to explain why the MASSIVE - MASSIVE complex business building in many countries involving billions, done over many later years, was all done at the orders of Hitler and carried out by Bormann - and then Hitler decides the equivalent of "feck that!" and just supposedly shoots himself in the head!

4zn76tysfajdxp

I'm no expert but apparently if Hitler survived the war and managed to escape Berlin, he would not have survived very long anyway. He was ridden with various illnesses. By the end of the war he supposedly had IBS, an increasingly-severe case of Parkinsons and his mind was rotting from neuro-syphilis. I heard somewhere that that lead to a lot of his mistakes in running his military, such as invading Russia. He was in a massive hurry to get the war won.

If Wibbs thanks this post I'll feel useful.

EchoO

Biggins wrote: »

If one actually bothers to read the book, a lot of what this Mr Walters states is wrong, and is explained in detail and backed-up.
FULL STOP.

Mr Walters doesn't bother his arse to explain many government documents (copies of which are included in the book and not refuted) which back-up the writers words.
Mr Walters quickly skips over that part - why? - maybe because for all his own previous work, he don't like the idea that a part of it concering 1945 might actually be wrong and he (and others with hurt egos) be exposed as being wrong?


Does he mean the same or other later intelligence officers which later state in secret archives, a different version of events in detail?



No its not.
The evidence that someone with the appearance of Hitler was killed is known.
The evidence of the supposed Hitler death in the bunker, has never been proved.
In fact there is question - much question over the very person who supposedly reported his supposed death.


Right... because Mr Walters was/is now a professional headshrink.

Maybe Mr Walters would care to explain the GNP of the country rocketing during and after the later years of WW2 seeing as he's now an expert in everything!


Yes, there was many people in the bunker - but as Hitlers level/section was not as public thoroughfare, very few of them actually would see him.
The "Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler" were not going around telling everyone about the access Hitler had built for emergencies previously (to go from above in case of plane bombing alone) to the lower private level.

As even stated above:

Good - he got something right, although I guess he admits this reluctantly - that Hitlers skull was NEVER in a museum in the first place!

Have they come up with any physical or photographic evidence. If not I'm inclined to share Mr. Walters view i.e. it's complete bollox.

BillyMitchel

Sooopie wrote: »

policarp wrote: »

Those 2 daughters should be in prison right now, serving a sentence for the sins of their father. . .

hardly their fault is it

Are they still alive? How did their lives turn out?

Pottler

I would not be in the least bit surprised if this were true. The Nazi's established vast networks of supporters, sympathisers and Businesses, involving huge sums of money. South America was a haven for Germans rebuilding their lives after the war and there were well established routes for those who had to leave Germany because of their actions during the war. Most walked straight into jobs with German owned Companies that were sympathetic to their situation. This is pretty much what happened with my own father but he went to the Uk. Which is a bit ironic, but at the time, Communist Russia was seen as by far the more pressing issue than dealing with thousands upon thousands of prisoners of war.
Germany after the end of WW2 was seen as an bulwark against Soviet expansion and it was in the western powers own interests to restore that Bulwark as rapidly as possible. The massive levels of technical expertise amongst the German prisoners was also not lost on the allies. The Germans are also fairly good organisers, in case anyone missed that bit, so arranging for a man that a lot of them still worshipped(fail) to be smuggled abroad and to vanish into a new life would be an easy matter, regardless of who that person was.

Biggins

Kamryn Shrilling Weekend wrote: »

I'm no expert but apparently if Hitler survived the war and managed to escape Berlin, he would not have survived very long anyway. He was ridden with various illnesses. By the end of the war he supposedly had IBS, an increasingly-severe case of Parkinsons and his mind was rotting from neuro-syphilis. I heard somewhere that that lead to a lot of his mistakes in running his military, such as invading Russia. He was in a massive hurry to get the war won.

If Wibbs thanks this post I'll feel useful.

Hitler it appears had IBS and his later physician Dr. Otto Lehmann (who has himself written on Hitlers health (look up "Lehmann papers "). He slipped away from the Soviets in '47) and continued to supposedly look after his man and was rewarded for such.
He explains that while his boss had complaints to put it mildly, a number of them was brought about due to treatments got earlier from previous others which was wrong in use. As he puts it "the dangerous administration of drugs and substances of dubious effect".
He gave the later assistants credit for easing and in some cases, reversing some of Hitlers pains including his gastric pains.
A previous "Morrell" however had done some damage indeed which "severely poisoned tissue that could not easily recover".
With greater access to medial treatments now outside of Germany (access in the later years of 43' to 45' was much restricted for obvious reasons) and the now wealth to gain them by a number of routes (one of the many companies Borman had money in was IG Farben and its inner companies) for use, helped much improve Hitlers supposed condition later.

The above is the much short version.

Pottler

BillyMitchel wrote: »

Are they still alive? How did their lives turn out?

They are, one runs a Poodle parlour-slash chinese take away(Chow Mein Kampf-Kutz) the other is an aged stripper in a nighclub in Toronto. Her party piece is her unusual narrow, short bikini wax and love of vejazzling.

Biggins

EchoO wrote: »

Have they come up with any physical or photographic evidence. If not I'm inclined to share Mr. Walters view i.e. it's complete bollox.

Well unlike Mr. Walters who provided no evidence subsequently of what he opinionates, the many researchers (who are listed) and the two titled book authors, do indeed provide much evidence and detail this in the book.
It would be too much for me to reproduce here (would take days to type out) as its 49 pages alone in back-up text listing of evidence with sources, etc.
This does not also include other evidence including copy's of documents, photographs and photostatic copys of government material (including government interview records from USA, Russian, British intelligence agents and also those enrolled on Hitlers side) throughout the book itself.

Your still free to believe just unsubstantiated opinion.

Chorcai

dj jarvis wrote: »

you are incorrect - the rc helped Germans escape from italy to south america , they had nothing to do with them getting from Berlin - Germany or anywhere else for that matter - they had to arrive at a relgious orders residence in rome, then they were helped

and to say that the RC officially helped the Nazis escape is far from he truth keith - individuals did - but was NEVER sponsored by the church itself

but the Americans - British and Russians did help 100 times the amount of Nazis escape death than the RC ever did , but you taking a swipe at the RC - well keith you would think you have some kind of bigoted agenda ?

if your going to spew that **** at least try be factual

And where did all the money go that was payed to lets say Bishop Alois Hudal and others who set up ratlines ? The church of course would never come out and say it sponsored the aiding and abetting of war ciminals, but the church was happy to take the fees in getting the crimianls papers, don't be so nivae when comes to matters regarding the RC church they knew full well what was going on, and as for that Pius XI he was nothing short of coward.

Biggins

BillyMitchel wrote: »

Are they still alive? How did their lives turn out?

A number of people who were down the line connected to the Hitler family died off.
The last one was in New York under a changed name.
He is still buried there in an unmarked (but known location) grave.
Previously he and others supposedly agreed not to continue the Hitler line.

BillyMitchel

Pottler wrote: »

They are, one runs a Poodle parlour-slash chinese take away(Chow Mein Kampf-Kutz) the other is an aged stripper in a nighclub in Toronto. Her party piece is her unusual narrow, short bikini wax and love of vejazzling.

Nice, I like a bit of wrinkled fanny!

gnfnrhead

That Walters guy sounds like a brused ego. He spent ages working on one idea and is refusing to even consider he might be wrong. I haven't read the book, but from this thread it sounds like it backs up its claims, something Walters didn't do in that little outburst. Just "I'm right and you're wrong!"

For what it's worth, I think Hitler did die in Germany, but I'm not opposed to believing that he managed to escape and live out his life somewhere else. Perhaps he had the idea of hiding out for a while before trying again but never got anything going again.

dj jarvis

Chorcai wrote: »

And where did all the money go that was payed to lets say Bishop Alois Hudal and others who set up ratlines ? The church of course would never come out and say it sponsored the aiding and abetting of war ciminals, but the church was happy to take the fees in getting the crimianls papers, don't be so nivae when comes to matters regarding the RC church they knew full well what was going on, and as for that Pius XI he was nothing short of coward.

i did not say that - i said it was not sanctioned by the RC - and it was not

can you furnish proof that other than a certain relgious order ( name escapes me - no pun intended ) helping the nazis escape , the RC was involved ?

and while your at it - publish in tandem the number of jewish people that the RC helped save

im NO fan of the RC - but im not going to bash it for something it did not do
historically it was small groups inside the greater church that helped nazis escape - not the church itself

as for the money paid to the bishop - i assume you can prove it came directly from the RC ? or are you just saying so - because it helps your version of events

im far from naive - but im not going to bull**** to make a point either

Zebra3

indioblack wrote: »

What's with the sarcasm?

Well the Brits weren't really into democracy, were they?

They may have had democracy on their own island, but it certainly didn't exist anywhere else in their empire.

Biggins

gnfnrhead wrote: »

That Walters guy sounds like a brused ego. He spent ages working on one idea and is refusing to even consider he might be wrong. I haven't read the book, but from this thread it sounds like it backs up its claims, something Walters didn't do in that little outburst. Just "I'm right and you're wrong!"

For what it's worth, I think Hitler did die in Germany, but I'm not opposed to believing that he managed to escape and live out his life somewhere else. Perhaps he had the idea of hiding out for a while before trying again but never got anything going again.

I honestly don't know if the man died in Germany - I am leaning towards not, based on much provided detailed evidence.
The extreme short version is that from '43 alone to '45, much planning was done by Bormann for the future (his planning did not start there however and the book in detail goes further back in many years to explain this along with naming who else was involved and how they did it).
The Germans alone were much know for their documenting of everything under the sun. However the book does not just rely on those documents but also on others around the world from opposing governments and their ministers, agents and much more.

One thing IS clear, the version of history that we generally know or think we know, is apparently not the true full version.

---

Have to leave now to travel to a Gaga concert in Dublin in five minutes but will be back later to post again!

EchoO

Biggins wrote: »

Well unlike Mr. Walters who provided no evidence subsequently of what he opinionates, the many researchers (who are listed) and the two titled book authors, do indeed provide much evidence and detail this in the book.
It would be too much for me to reproduce here (would take days to type out) as its 49 pages alone in back-up text listing of evidence with sources, etc.
This does not also include other evidence including copy's of documents, photographs and photostatic copys of government material (including government interview records from USA, Russian, British intelligence agents and also those enrolled on Hitlers side) throughout the book itself.

Your still free to believe just unsubstantiated opinion.

If the proof is as compelling as you appear to believe it is, that article wouldn't have been stuck on the inside pages of the Daily Mail. It would of been on the front pages of every national newspaper worldwide and would have been the lead story on every news bulletin. You are swallowing a conspiracy theory hook, line and sinker.

EclipsiumRasa

What's it going to take to end the Hitler conspiracy stuff?

Newsweek:
"DNA verification confirms recently uncovered taxidermy of Fuhrer lookalike is indeed Adolf Hitler."

Biggins

EchoO wrote: »

If the proof is as compelling as you appear to believe it is, that article wouldn't have been stuck on the inside pages of the Daily Mail. It would of been on the front pages of every national newspaper worldwide and would have been the lead story on every news bulletin. You are swallowing a conspiracy theory hook, line and sinker.

Not swallowing it - just more open minded.

... And the book was also in many papers around the world including The Times (England).
After the "Hitler diaries" affair, many papers are afraid to get burned twice!

"Don't shoot the messenger because one does not like the message"

Back later!

EchoO

Biggins wrote: »

Not swallowing it - just more open minded.

... And the book was also in many papers around the world including The Times (England).

"Don't shoot the messenger because one does not like the message"

I missed your last post above, so perhaps the hook, line..etc was unmerited. It's one thing to find a book like this to be plausible on the face of it, but it's another to say the claim they are making is proven. Which is where I thought you where coming from.

PapaQuebec

Biggins wrote: »

Well unlike Mr. Walters who provided no evidence subsequently of what he opinionates, the many researchers (who are listed) and the two titled book authors, do indeed provide much evidence and detail this in the book.
It would be too much for me to reproduce here (would take days to type out) as its 49 pages alone in back-up text listing of evidence with sources, etc.
This does not also include other evidence including copy's of documents, photographs and photostatic copys of government material (including government interview records from USA, Russian, British intelligence agents and also those enrolled on Hitlers side) throughout the book itself.

Your still free to believe just unsubstantiated opinion.

Just stumbled upon this thread!

I read the book a few months ago, and whilst I started it a sceptic, I found myself increasingly convinced that reports of Hitlers' death in 1945 suited the Allied Powers postwar agenda - though Stalin was never convinced of his death!

The book reinforced my long-held (over 35 years) belief that Martin Bormann did NOT die in Berlin in 1945!

As you have said, it would be a mammoth task (and probably cause problems with the mods) to reproduce sections of the book here!

You could, of course, PM me.......

Wibbs

I'd have no issue with the notion of the vast network of financial Nazi piggy banks. The German industrial complex before the war was incredibly rich and was directly involved with financing Hitler and the war(and few were taken to task for it). Can't see them giving up their ill gotten. Plus a fair few very connected Nazis just vanished. I've also no doubt that a fair chunk of the post war period is either ignored, under appreciated or even purposely hidden(the maltreatment and large scale deaths of former German military types and civilians after the war a case in point that covers all three) . This book may well be highlighting some of that money and men escaping the ruins of the Reich.

I'm quite sure there is much to be uncovered about that conflict, much that we take as historical givens today. The victors write the history even with the best of intentions, on top of that the victors wartime propaganda(by necessity at the time) can be taken as fact today and some of that grey area can become black and white.

Take something like the Battle of Britain. The Spitfire is the aircraft that won it in the public mind as that was pushed at the time(give us your scrap pots and pans to build Spitfires etc), yet the Hurricane was generally the better gun platform, easier to fly, could take much more punishment, could outturn the Spit, was in far higher numbers in the skies above England and scored the highest number of air to air victories. It didn't fit the script as well though. Hell even the Germans bought into this and would shout "Achtung Spitfire" and claim that's what shot them down rather than the Hurricane. In recent years the message has gotten out, but the WWW2 propaganda still holds sway.

That's but one example; the Stuka being crap, the military effectiveness of the allied bombing campaign, (in the US)the idea that without the US the European war was lost, the Maginot line was bypassed and then taken and France just gave up, the SS being all wild eyed baby killers, D day turned the tide of war, the chances of Japan actually winning the war under pretty much any circumstances being a few more.

Zab

Biggins wrote: »

The now female skull has been found to be from an older person, one much older than Eva was at the time of her supposed death.

By much older you mean aged between 20 and 40? That said it seems to be accepted that it's unlikely to be Braun's skull.

I don't claim that it's 100% that Hitler died in the bunker, nor do I even claim to be aware of all the public facts, but from what you've posted here there's no evidence the he lives that's as strong as the witness accounts of his and Eva's dead bodies. You point out that it could have just looked like Hitler, which is true, but without good evidence supporting that claim I see no reason to give it particular credence.

PapaQuebec

Zab wrote: »

By much older you mean aged between 20 and 40? That said it seems to be accepted that it's unlikely to be Braun's skull.

I don't claim that it's 100% that Hitler died in the bunker, nor do I even claim to be aware of all the public facts, but from what you've posted here there's no evidence the he lives that's as strong as the witness accounts of his and Eva's dead bodies. You point out that it could have just looked like Hitler, which is true, but without good evidence supporting that claim I see no reason to give it particular credence.

I haven't read all the posts in this thread but I have read the book which almost totally debunks the theory that Hitler died in the bunker, especially the "witness accounts"!!

EchoO

In 2003, Mark Benecke, a German forensic biologist confirmed that teeth kept in the former KGB's archive were Hitler's.

http://wiki2.benecke.com/index.php?title=2003_AIR:_Hitler%C2%B4s_Skull_%26_Teeth