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New book claims Hitler died in Argentina
Comments
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Hitler is alive and well in Dublin. He's getting the messages with Eva in this exclusive paparnazi snap.:pac:
http://gombeennation.blogspot.ie/2010/10/hitler-on-luas.html0 -
In 2003, Mark Benecke, a German forensic biologist confirmed that teeth kept in the former KGB's archive were Hitler's.
http://wiki2.benecke.com/index.php?title=2003_AIR:_Hitler%C2%B4s_Skull_%26_Teeth
Nothing at that link!0 -
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The link works but it leads to a blank Wiki page with no text.
I don't know what's going on, when I click on it I get the article. Anyway here it is..Hitler´s Skull & Teeth
[All AIR publications] [MBs Publikationen]
I am a true nerd I guess: Spectacles, checkered pattern shirt, no radio, no TV — a forensic entomologist by profession. So when National Geographic Channel called and asked the allegedly "most famous forensic biologist on earth" (my editorial house's claim, definitely not mine) to join into an investigation on the remains of Adolf Hitler, I nerdily thought it just a theoretical enterprise, and said yes. As with many people born in Germany long after World War II, I, to a large extent, regarded Hitler as a very bad, extremely cruel joke against mankind. I had never quite thought of Hitler as a real, physically present person. I have no fascination of any sort with the guy. Just look at him (see Figure 1) — he was a jerk amongst jerks.
What is more, most Germans do not know that Hitler's corpse was destroyed only around the year 1970 — except for a piece of skull bone, and his teeth. Since 1945, the charred body had rested secretly in Eastern German soil, in the city of Magdeburg. Yuri Andropov, then head of the KGB, later head of the Soviet Union, ordered his agents in 1970 to finally — and this time really — burn up the body. Afterwards, the ashes were spread into a nearby river. The grapevine made this ultra-secret action locally known in Eastern Germany, but it was not at all in Western Germany (which is where I was living).
Weird fact no. 1: Hitler had ordered his body to be burned to ashes. In the last days of the war in Berlin, it was, however, a little difficult to find enough fuel to burn a human corpse. Therefore, one of the last orders of the crazy man was to obtain burning liquid. Hitler's driver could only obtain around 180 liters (about 50 U.S. gallons) so that after burning, Hitler's body, though severely blackened on the outside, still had its inner organs and bones intact ("intact" in forensic lingo, I mean). Even after death, post-card-painter-gone-nuts Adolf Hitler was a loser.
And so, literally, I had stumbled into a most bizarre forensic investigation. Since no high-resolution color photographs of the remains existed, National Geographic Channel bribed me a way into the archives, and also put me in touch with the few still-living eyewitnesses of the events of April 30 (Hitler's suicide) to May 8, 1945 (the final day of Word War II). I say "stumbled" because the first archive I went into (the State Archive) was not only covered in thick layers of dust, but was also filled with piles of cardboard boxes, sheets, and drawers gone wild (see Figure 2). When the archivist opened the box containing Hitler's skull piece, I nearly cracked up laughing: She had stored the thing in a floppy disk container, most likely because of the nice little plastic lock that is attached to the front of the box (see Figure 3).
Weird fact no. 2: Hitler's head rests, not in peace, but on two sheets of Kleenex in a floppy disk storage case.
The actual identification of Hitler's remains (and therefore the confirmation of his death based on physical evidence) was published in 1972. It was performed by comparing the teeth of the remains to the dental schemata drawn by Hitler's dentist. The teeth are not located in the State Archives, where one might expect them to be, but in the former KGB archive, which is in a different part of Moscow. The interior design of the KGB building looks exactly like in a James Bond movie: Light blue curtains, cream-color telephones without dials, and numerous brown 'n cozy armchairs (see Figure 4).
The teeth are stored inside of large overseas travel suitcases, packed together with Hitler's uniform and the original files of the death investigation. The reports of Hitler's dentist, Blaschke (who had formerly studied in the U.S.), and other witnesses clearly show that the teeth in that little cigar box must indeed be the Fuehrer's (see Figure 5). The details all accord. For example, a most massive metal bridge that is well preserved can also be seen on X-rays taken of Hitler's head in 1944. (He had complained about headaches after an attempted assassination, that is why the X rays were taken.)
In the 1990s, my colleague Michel Perrier, a university odontologist from Lausanne with profound knowledge of, and practice (some would say obsession) in, forensic odontology, went a step further and compared original movie footage in which Hitler shows his teeth whilst grimacing during speeches, or smirking (see Figure 1) with the teeth from the archive. He could identify shiny structures (metal artifacts) on the sides, and severe paradontosis of the lower front teeth in the movies as well as in the actual teeth.
Weird fact no. 3: Hitler's teeth were so bad — and uniquely bad — that his teeth alone made it possible to identify his corpse. The state of his teeth might also explain why everybody complained about Hitler's oral malodor.
His mistress Eva Braun's teeth, by the way, are kept in an even smaller, even crappier cigar box than the one containing Hitler's teeth.
Did I feel the cold touch of history when examining Hitler's remains (see Figure 6)? No. But being a nerd, I believe that it is very appropriate to see the madman's remains in pieces, spread in different archives over Moscow, and basically forgotten under dust.0 -
I don't know what's going on, when I click on it I get the article. Anyway here it is..
Thanks for posting the text, I had the same problem as a prior poster - a page with no text!
However:
"Just look at him (see Figure 1) — he was a jerk amongst jerks"
"Even after death, post-card-painter-gone-nuts Adolf Hitler was a loser."
"But being a nerd, I believe that it is very appropriate to see the madman's remains in pieces"
Is this the language of a serious scientist?
or that of someone paid to make a "shock/expose" docu for that bastion of truth: Nat Geo TV?
"So when National Geographic Channel called and asked the allegedly "most famous forensic biologist on earth" (my editorial house's claim, definitely not mine) to join into an investigation on the remains of Adolf Hitler"
If the claim embarrasses the author - why repeat it?
"When the archivist opened the box containing Hitler's skull piece, I nearly cracked up laughing: She had stored the thing in a floppy disk container, most likely because of the nice little plastic lock that is attached to the front of the box (see Figure 3)."
That the skull fragment has been proven to be neither Hitler's nor Brauns bears some repeating, yet it doesn't faze this author at all!
That someone matching Hitlers description was shot in the bunker and their remains subsequently burned is not in doubt, but in the view of the authors of "Grey Wolf" that man was Gustav Weber - Hitlers long time body-double (indeed the final video images of "Hitler" (meeting H Jugend members) have been proven to be of Weber!
My offer of the books stands!0 -
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PapaQuebec wrote: »Thanks for posting the text, I had the same problem as a prior poster - a page with no text!
However:
"Just look at him (see Figure 1) — he was a jerk amongst jerks"
"Even after death, post-card-painter-gone-nuts Adolf Hitler was a loser."
"But being a nerd, I believe that it is very appropriate to see the madman's remains in pieces"
Is this the language of a serious scientist?
or that of someone paid to make a "shock/expose" docu for that bastion of truth: Nat Geo TV?
"So when National Geographic Channel called and asked the allegedly "most famous forensic biologist on earth" (my editorial house's claim, definitely not mine) to join into an investigation on the remains of Adolf Hitler"
If the claim embarrasses the author - why repeat it?
"When the archivist opened the box containing Hitler's skull piece, I nearly cracked up laughing: She had stored the thing in a floppy disk container, most likely because of the nice little plastic lock that is attached to the front of the box (see Figure 3)."
That the skull fragment has been proven to be neither Hitler's nor Brauns bears some repeating, yet it doesn't faze this author at all!
That someone matching Hitlers description was shot in the bunker and their remains subsequently burned is not in doubt, but in the view of the authors of "Grey Wolf" that man was Gustav Weber - Hitlers long time body-double (indeed the final video images of "Hitler" (meeting H Jugend members) have been proven to be of Weber!
My offer of the books stands!
What he looks like is and the manner in which he wrote this article is immaterial. He's a forensic biologist who also happens to be a punk rocker, but that doesn't make his credentials any less credible. He compared the teeth to X-rays taken of Hitler's head in 1944 and concluded that they matched.
http://wunder2.greyfalcon.us/picturesb/hitlersk.jpg0 -
What he looks like is and the manner in which he wrote this article is immaterial. He's a forensic biologist who also happens to be a punk rocker, but that doesn't make his credentials any less credible. He compared the teeth to X-rays taken of Hitler's head in 1944 and concluded that they matched.
There has been so much fakery and smoke-and-mirrors associated with events in the bunker in 1945 that it's hard to make head or tail of a lot of it.
As I said (or I think I did) I have read extensively on the subject over the last 35-or-so years - and not with the mindset of a "conspiracy theorist"!
I read the book with an open mind that tended toward scepticism and was amazed at the amount of verifiable data it contained, and finished it with the distinct impression that "we" haven't been told the truth - or at least much of it!
Why a cover-up (if indeed there was one)? I think it suits many that it's not investigated further.
Many "friendly States" benefitted greatly from the influx of looted gold etc from Nazi stocks - gold production and reserves were (and are) strictly monitored and it's suspicious that certain South American countries' (but not SA alone) reserves seemingly tripled or better between 1939 and 1945 with no documentation to establish where this gold came from!
The authors' contention - backed with verifiable documentation - is that this Gold (and antiques, diamonds etc) was Bormann's price for sanctuary at the end of a war which he was convinced was over as early as 1942
I could go on all evening!
Book is here for anyone interested:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ujvjrojbaofuaoa/u3iqF2pHSm0 -
Well the Brits weren't really into democracy, were they?
They may have had democracy on their own island, but it certainly didn't exist anywhere else in their empire.
Now I see what you're getting at. But what's this fascination with the British?
As imperialists, was their behaviour so different compared to other imperial powers in history?0 -
The country that the main culprits ended up in, became very rich between 1943 and '45 in particular.
There are a number of reasons as to why and what the future was supposed to hold for those escaping but whatever those reasons, keep the following in mind and this is only a typical example:
Bormann was able to create 980 front companies, with 770 of those in neutral countries including 98 alone in Argentina. There were to handle many, many businesses created and/or invested in. Bormann was a financial genius (By 1945, Bormann had amassed alone, some 16 million in Swedish Kroner & 12 million in Turkish Lira)
One section of the book (with great detail and documentation provided) goes on to explain the staggering - and it is really staggering! - wealth amassed and how it was diversified later (look up "Project Eagle Flight", the acquisition of shares/equity in foreign countries).
Thanks for the reply - it's an intriguing story.
Nevertheless, I find it hard to think of Hitler leaving Germany.
He had invested so much of himself in the country - with his own agenda that led Germany to disaster - that, by the wars end, his life, (and death), was tied in to the fate of Germany.
But I can envisage others at the top of his regime wishing to escape.
Enjoy the concert!0 -
From the OP's link, by way of providing reasoning:The book also accuses US intelligence of being complicit in the scam in return for access to Nazi war technology.
I notice lots of accusations, but very little evidence.
The above makes particularly little sense. The war was over. The Germans had been beaten. Whatever evidence was to be had was the property of the Allies as praemia belli. It doesn't make logical sense for the above to be true.
So in the absence of a compelling logic, the authors would need to introduce some positive evidence or GTFO.0 -
I don't think Hitler got a chance to sail the Southern seas..
I rented out 'Blind Spot' a few years back, from Laser on South Great Georges Street.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0311320/
It is basically.. Hitler's secretary, Traudl Junge (16 March 1920 – 10 February 2002), talking, talking, talking.. amazing person, amazing life.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traudl_Junge
(Could an Admin\Moderator embed the following image please..? ..then delete this text? Thank you.)
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/2999/mv5bmtk4ndqwmzyzml5bml5.jpg
She is the same person who is featured as one of the main characters in the film, 'Downfall'.
She's also on youtube
(No but really, she is on youtube)0 -
By much older you mean aged between 20 and 40? That said it seems to be accepted that it's unlikely to be Braun's skull.
I don't claim that it's 100% that Hitler died in the bunker, nor do I even claim to be aware of all the public facts, but from what you've posted here there's no evidence the he lives that's as strong as the witness accounts of his and Eva's dead bodies. You point out that it could have just looked like Hitler, which is true, but without good evidence supporting that claim I see no reason to give it particular credence.
The book goes into this matter in some serious detail.
I would suggest at least a reading of it.In 2003, Mark Benecke, a German forensic biologist confirmed that teeth kept in the former KGB's archive were Hitler's.
http://wiki2.benecke.com/index.php?title=2003_AIR:_Hitler%C2%B4s_Skull_%26_Teeth
Indeed, he consider they were the same teeth because he judged them from 30/40 year old "movie footage in which Hitler shows his teeth whilst grimacing during speeches", Seriously?
Considering that one of the now well known doubles-was spot on a replica of the main man, the Germans were very exact who they picked in similar distinctions.
Also using old b/w footage to judge teeth (that are where now?) ...And came from a now confirmed older female skull!
I would be very sceptical at least.
I quote one section of the book:According to the book Nazi Millionaires, by Kenneth D. Alford and Theodore P. Savas, Walter Hirschfeld, a former SS officer working for the U.S. Counterintelligence Corps in Germany interviewed Fegelein's father Hans in late September 1945.
Hans Fegelein stated to Hirschfeld that "I think I can say with certainty that the Fuhrer is alive. I have received word through a special messenger [an SS Sturmbannfhrer] after his death had already been announced". The courier reportedly relayed the following message from Hermann Fegelein: "The Fuhrer and I are safe and well. Don't worry about me; you will get further word from me, even if it is not for some time."
The courier also said that on the day when the Fuhrer, Hermann, and Eva Braun left Berlin, there was a sharp counterattack in Berlin in order to win a flying strip where they could take off. Hirschfeld was said to have been dumbfounded: Many SS officers claim the Fuhrer is dead and his body was burned! However, Hans Fegelein allegedly assured him that it was a smokescreen: "They are all trusted and true SS men who have been ordered to make these statements. Keep your eye on South America."
Another (of many interesting) section:JUST AFTER THE STROKE OF MIDNIGHT as April 28, 1945, began, while the rest of the occupants of the Fuhrerbunker were trying to get some sleep, Hitler's escape got under way. The Fuhrer, his beloved dog Blondi, Eva Braun, Bormann, Fegelein, and six trusted soldiers from the SS Guard Battalion "Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler" slipped quietly away through the Vorbunker and up to his private quarters in the Old Reich Chancellery building. The light concrete panelwas slid aside, revealing the secret escape tunnel. At the end of the electrically lit passageway, down a slight incline, they entered the wider space of the third-level bunker. When the party reached the chamber, they found waiting for them two people whom Muller had had brought there from up the tunnel via the underground railway: two doubles, a stand-in for Hitler (probably Gustav Weber) and one for Eva Braun.
GUSTAV WEBER HAD BEEN STANDING IN FOR HITLER since July 20, 1944, when the Fuhrer had been wounded in the bomb attempt on his life at his Wolf's Lair field headquarters near Rastenburg in East Prussia. Hitler had suffered recurrent aftereffects from his injuries; he tired easily, and he was plagued by infected wounds from splinters of the oak table that had protected him from the full force of the blast. (His use of penicillin, taken from Allied troops captured or killed in the D-Day landings, had probably saved his life.)
Weber had impersonated Hitler on his last officially photographed appearance, when he handed out medals to members of the Hitler Youth in the Chancellery garden on March 20, 1945. Weber's uncanny resemblance to Hitler deceived even those quite close to him, and on that occasion the Reichsjugendfuhrer (Hitler Youth National Leader) Artur Axman was either taken in or warned to play along. The only thing liable to betray the imposture was that Weber's left hand suffered from occasional bouts of uncontrollable trembling. Bormann had taken Hitler's personal doctor into his confidence, and SS Lt. Col. Dr. Ludwig Stumpfegger had treated Weber with some success. Weber was often kept sedated, but his trembling became more noticeable when he was under extreme stress.
Eva Braun's double was simply perfect. Her name is unknown, but she had been trawled from the 'stable' of young actresses that Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels, the self-appointed 'patron of the German cinema', maintained for his own pleasure. The physical similarity was amazing, and after film makeup and hairdressing experts had done their work it was very difficult to tell the two young women apart.
I'll just post the following as it might hint at why some papers are not too keen to delve too deeply into the matter now of Hitler (especially given the current inflamed Jewish situation, etc):PUBLISHER'S NOTE
When we were first presented with the idea for Grey Wolf: The Escape of Adolf Hitler, our initial reaction was to dismiss it as just another conspiracy theory. Everyone knows that Hitler and Eva Braun took their lives in the bunker to escape the humiliation and certain execution that awaited them. However, we agreed to give it serious consideration due to the stellar reputations of the authors, Simon Dunstan and Gerrard Williams. We were also encouraged by the recent independent discovery that the remains recovered at the bunker were not those of Hitler or Eva Braun.
Upon reading the proposal and challenging the authors over a period of several months, we were convinced that they had raised serious questions that called the conventional wisdom into question, and we therefore decided to publish the book.
The authors have spent the last five years researching this subject, traveling the globe, interviewing eyewitnesses, unearthing documents, and piecing together a mountain of evidence that has convinced them of a fact almost too horrible to contemplate: that Adolf Hitler escaped punishment and lived out his life in relative tranquility in Patagonia until his death in 1962.
This prospect is so despicable that we contemplated not publishing the book out of concern for those who would be offended by the mere prospect of Hitler's escape, whether or not they found the argument credible. However, after much consideration, and a lengthy editorial process during which the authors were challenged to support their facts, we believe it is possible they may have uncovered the truth behind one of the greatest deceptions in history.
This book raises many intriguing questions, but it does not conclusively settle the issue. Perhaps this is a mystery that will never be solved, as with so many other moments in time. Or perhaps, once this issue is in the public arena, other facts will come to light that will bring us closer to a definitive answer. The authors wrote this book in a search for the truth, and they may have found it. Inevitably, you, the reader, will be the ultimate judge.
Short version: The book gives evidence, much evidence and leaves the reader to draw ones own judgement. A horrible conclusion about Hitler escaping, a possible judgement that might be not as the victors of a war (who indeed get to write history), would have you just swallow!
There is also one other thing to consider.
Those close to Hitler were fanatical about their leader. (Hell, the whole of Germany at one stage was fanatical at one stage). They were the most fanatical of the lot and in a lot of cases, were especially researched and thus hand-picked given their absolute loyalty to a man they often considered on a god level, to do as he commanded. They often felt 'touched by the hand of god', an deep honour just to work for and in close proximity to their glorious leader.
The level of their willingness to do anything for their "Herr Furher" cannot be contemplated fully for the time it was - however we can see similar shades of it even today in the fanatics of the modern world who will do anything for their own reasons and even willing to die at the behest/orders of those above them.0 -
Indeed, he consider they were the same teeth because he judged them from 30/40 year old "movie footage in which Hitler shows his teeth whilst grimacing during speeches", Seriously?
Considering that one of the now well known doubles-was spot on a replica of the main man, the Germans were very exact who they picked in similar distinctions.
Also using old b/w footage to judge teeth (that are where now?) ...And came from a now confirmed older female skull!
I would be very sceptical at least.
That is a complete misrepresentation of what Benecke did. What you are referring to is work done by university odontologist Michel Perrier in the 90's. What Mark Benecke actually did was compare the teeth to X-rays taken of Hitler's head in 1944 and concluded that they matched.
http://wunder2.greyfalcon.us/picturesb/hitlersk.jpg0 -
That is a complete misrepresentation of what Benecke did. What you are referring to is work done by university odontologist Michel Perrier in the 90's. What Mark Benecke actually did was compare the teeth to X-rays taken of Hitler's head in 1944 and concluded that they matched.
http://wunder2.greyfalcon.us/picturesb/hitlersk.jpg
Apologies if I read part of the linked piece you supplied, wrong.
The chap that assessed the teeth though from just looking at film footage however, was simply still pushing his luck to say the least.
On the matter of the supposed x-ray, on the reading of the book you will learn that from '43 onwards, preparations for what eventually (possibly) occurred in '45 had been going on.
Knowing how exact the Germans like to be in detail (documentating it also) and knowing that after the mess that was created across Europe and Britain (besides many other countries) were not just going to accept that Hitler was dead and leave it at that, they (a select ultra-loyal picked few) organised from '43 material to - to put it bluntly - cover their ass and the possible path of Hitlers.
Knowing that the USA, Britian, etc would eventually go looking for usable confirmation evidence, how hard would it have been to x-ray a double (the much known Weber for example) and keep those teeth on file previously?
Remember, many close to Hitler that had know him for many, years could NOT even tell the difference between the double(s) and Hitler!
If it was Weber that was later killed - his teeth from earlier would thus be on file.
(They also knew (this was evident with their planning) what was coming possibly in the future - and they were right.)
...And Weber and all Hitlers doubles were picked, checked, etc after much checking including x-rays and health conditions.0 -
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Knowing that the USA, Britian, etc would eventually go looking for usable confirmation evidence, how hard would it have been to x-ray a double (the much known Weber for example) and keep those teeth on file previously?
Remember, many close to Hitler that had know him for many, years could NOT even tell the difference between the double(s) and Hitler!
If it was Weber that was later killed - his teeth from earlier would thus be on file.
(They also knew (this was evident with their planning) what was coming possibly in the future - and they were right.)
...And Weber and all Hitlers doubles were picked, checked, etc after much checking including x-rays and health conditions.
In May 1945 Soviet officers showed a dental bridge to Hilter's dentist's technician Fritz Echtmann and his dental assistant Käthe Heusermann and they both identified it as being Hitler's. The Doctor who took the x-ray wrote a chronological record of his treatment of Hilter which was later published as a book, I assume an account of the taking of that x-ray is in there.0 -
In May 1945 Soviet officers showed a dental bridge to Hilter's dentist's technician Fritz Echtmann and his dental assistant Käthe Heusermann and they both identified it as being Hitler's. The Doctor who took the x-ray wrote a chronological record of his treatment of Hilter which was later published as a book, I assume an account of the taking of that x-ray is in there.
As with Erich Kempka (see below) there are reasons for some stating what the winner of a war might want to hear.
...Then there is the fanatical loyalty aspect too!
...Then there is the aspect that a dentist who THINKS he's actually treating Hitler but isn't - remember that Hitlers very close friends couldn't tell the difference in the double(s)!
Stalin never believed Hitler was dead, insisting at the Potsdam Conference on July 17, 1945, that he had escaped, probably to Spain or Argentina.
Stalin's top general, Marshal Georgi Zhukov, said on August 6, 1945: "We found no corpse that could be Hitler's."
Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower stated publicly on October 12, 1945, "There is every assumption that Hitler is dead, but not a bit of conclusive proof that he is dead." He told the Associated Press that "Russian friends" had informed him that they had been "unable to unearth any tangible evidence of his death."
One U.S. senator went as far as offering one million U.S. dollars for proof of Hitler's death. It has never been claimed.Historians have preferred to accept the 'masterful' account of British historian, Oxford professor, and former intelligence officer Hugh Trevor-Roper, which insists that Hitler committed suicide in the Fuhrerbunker on April 30, 1945.
It was vital to the Allied cause that Hitler should be demonstrably dead, to allow a new Germany to emerge from the ashes of the old. Trevor-Roper's work, which was published in 1947 as a book called The Last Days of Hitler, is intrinsically flawed, from the testimony of Hanna Reitsch, Hitler's favourite pilot who denied ever meeting Trevor-Roper or saying what he quoted of her, to Hitler's Luftwaffe adjutant, Nicolaus von Below, who later stated that he had lied to the Oxford don and had a good laugh every time he saw his lies repeated.
Hitler's chauffeur, Erich Kempka, was interrogated repeatedly but subsequently admitted in 1974, "I told American and British interrogators just about anything or everything I thought they wanted to hear."There is no proof that Adolf Hitler and his wife Eva Braun killed themselves in the bunker, and yet the wider world has always believed this. Not everyone seems to have taken it as fact: the Federal Bureau of Investigation under Director J. Edgar Hoover kept files of reports on every sighting of Hitler into the 1960s; the relevant Argentine ones are to be seen in this book. However, many of the FBI's files on Hitler and Eva Braun after the war have not been released, and the same is true of those of the British security services.Why did none of the world's intelligence organizations or the Israeli government continue searching for Hitler? The simplest answer is, "Why bother? He was dead."
To their lasting shame, the Allied Powers employed numerous Nazi war criminals for their supposed knowledge of the Red Army and Soviet capabilities in the emerging Cold War of the late 1940s. Men such as Klaus Barbie, the Butcher of Lyon, were hired by Western intelligence agencies for years after the war: an inconvenient fact that was suppressed for decades. Most proved to be of little value in the Cold War confrontation with the Soviet Union.
Equally troubling, many Nazis were allowed to find new lives in North and South America as well as Australia under government-sponsored emigration schemes in return for their services.There is no concrete forensic evidence that it was Adolf Hitler and Eva Braun who died in the Fuhrerbunker, no eyewitness to the moment of death. The famous 'Hitler Skull' fragment held in Moscow for decades has finally been DNA-tested. It is that of a woman under the age of forty and it is not Eva Braun. There is also no absolutely accepted forensic evidence for Martin Bormann's supposed death; in 1998 German officials claimed that a skeleton buried near the Reichstag matched the DNA of an elderly relative of Bormann's, who remains nameless; the cremated ashes of the remains were scattered at sea. Bormann's family refused to accept the findings. Meanwhile, the bones found in Muller's grave, when exhumed in 1963, were found to be those of three other people.
Note: the point being that in order to prepare for the use of three bodies, plans would have had to been made in advance.
As the book shows in serious detail, such plans were in fact from '43 intensified for such an occasion.
If they could do it for a lower rank - they could do it for their master to whom they were fanatical loyal to - and the book shows throughout, the lengthy efforts they went to, do do just this.The escape route into the Berlin subway system is still there. There are similar tunnels in London from the cellars of Buckingham Palace and 10 Downing Street, the residence of the British prime minister, to the London Tube, which would have been used by the British royal family and senior members of the government and military if London had ever fallen to Nazi invaders.
The Associated Press and Reuters reported the testimony of the pilot Peter Baumgart, who flew the couple out of Berlin along with Eva's brother in-law, Gen. Hermann Fegelein, extensively from Warsaw in 1947. But researchers have ignored this until today....However, video interviews with eyewitnesses filmed in the 1990s while Basti was working for Ambito Financiero, one of Argentina's most respected daily newspapers, are compelling. It is the words of these witnesses, on a tape given to us by the paper's editorial director Ricardo DuAloia, that have contributed to the findings published in this book.
In over twenty research trips to Argentina, a beautiful country full of wonderful people, one thing has always surprised us: everyone we spoke to about the possibility of Hitler living there after the war believes it was eminently possible and in many cases definitely true.
It is often dropped into conversation quite innocently. On one investigative trip, we were in the city of Curdoba planning a foray to the dilapidated Hotel Viena on the shores of Mar Chiquita, a large inland salt lake. We asked the young receptionist at our hotel for the best route from Argentina's second city to Mar Chiquita. Without knowing why we were going to Mar Chiquita, she took our map and politely showed our interpreter the best route to get there. After we had finished with the map, she said to us, "Oh, you must try the fish, it's sea fish in the middle of Argentina! And then if you're bored you can visit the Hotel Viena where Hitler and his wife used to stay after the war."
Similar stories greeted us throughout our trips. On April 20, 2007, we were in San Carlos de Bariloche smoking cigarettes outside the town's casino. A man in his seventies approached us and asked for a light and then, somewhat incongruously, inquired if we were South African. Explaining that Gerrard was Welsh and Simon English, we asked him where he was from. "Chile," he replied, explaining that he ran a fish-farming business there. We offered him a cigarette and commented that Bariloche felt very German and there were a lot of German speakers everywhere, much of the food, architecture, and culture was Germanic, and many of the street names were in German. He replied that the place was full of Nazis, particularly tonight, the anniversary of the Fuhrer's birthday. He should know, he said; his father was the gauleiter (Nazi Party regional leader) of Hamburg, Germany, and when Hitler visited Hamburg he would always stay at their home. With a cheerful auf Wiedersehen, he then walked off into the night. We had scores of similar encounters in the deepest reaches of Patagonia, but that is a story in itself....But probably the most telling comment in our hunt for Hitler and the U-boats that brought him and his stolen loot to Argentina came from the-then Argentine minister of justice and human rights, Senior Hannibal Fernandez. As we left his Buenos Aires ministerial office in 2007 after a lengthy interview, he politely shook our hands and said, "In 1945, in Argentina, anything was possible." He was right.0 -
Stalin never believed Hitler was dead, insisting at the Potsdam Conference on July 17, 1945, that he had escaped, probably to Spain or Argentina.
Stalin's top general, Marshal Georgi Zhukov, said on August 6, 1945: "We found no corpse that could be Hitler's."
Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower stated publicly on October 12, 1945, "There is every assumption that Hitler is dead, but not a bit of conclusive proof that he is dead." He told the Associated Press that "Russian friends" had informed him that they had been "unable to unearth any tangible evidence of his death."
One U.S. senator went as far as offering one million U.S. dollars for proof of Hitler's death. It has never been claimed.
Using dental records is a very well established and accurate means to identify a persons remains. I'm sure that x-ray can be confirmed as Hilter's and I'm also sure there would be records confirming that the dental bridge the Russian's agents had in 1945 is the same one that Benecke examined in 2003. This is actual physical evidence. To be 100% sure DNA testing would have to be done. I don't why it hasn't been done to date, but I assume it will be done at some stage.
When I asked you earlier if their was any physical or photograph evidence in the book, I meant physical evidence of his supposed stay in Argentina comparable to the above. From what I have read in reviews of the book - there isn't.0 -
Using dental records is a very well established and accurate means to identify a persons remains. I'm sure that x-ray can be confirmed as Hilter's and I'm also sure there would be records confirming that the dental bridge the Russian's agents had in 1945 is the same one that Benecke examined in 2003. This is actual physical evidence. To be 100% sure DNA testing would have to be done. I don't why it hasn't been done to date, but I assume it will be done at some stage.
When I asked you earlier if their was any physical or photograph evidence in the book, I meant physical evidence of his supposed stay in Argentina comparable to the above. From what I have read in reviews of the book - there isn't.
Since Bormann had been planning the escape of Hitler and other senior nazis from the early '40's with meticulous attention to detail it's more than possible that a false trail was laid. After all, Hitler was made to feign a tremor in one of his arms (it was said that he was more severly injured in the July bomb plot than he actually was) to simulate the "shakes" that Gustav Weber experienced due to illness and alcoholism!0 -
PapaQuebec wrote: »Since Bormann had been planning the escape of Hitler and other senior nazis from the early '40's with meticulous attention to detail it's more than possible that a false trail was laid. After all, Hitler was made to feign a tremor in one of his arms (it was said that he was more severly injured in the July bomb plot than he actually was) to simulate the "shakes" that Gustav Weber experienced due to illness and alcoholism!
A can't see how a verifiable x-ray and piece of his jawbone could be part of a false trail.0 -
Using dental records is a very well established and accurate means to identify a persons remains. I'm sure that x-ray can be confirmed as Hilter's and I'm also sure there would be records confirming that the dental bridge the Russian's agents had in 1945 is the same one that Benecke examined in 2003. This is actual physical evidence. To be 100% sure DNA testing would have to be done. I don't why it hasn't been done to date, but I assume it will be done at some stage.
When I asked you earlier if their was any physical or photograph evidence in the book, I meant physical evidence of his supposed stay in Argentina comparable to the above. From what I have read in reviews of the book - there isn't.
To repeat above:As with Erich Kempka (see below) there are reasons for some stating what the winner of a war might want to hear.
...Then there is the fanatical loyalty aspect too!
...Then there is the aspect that a dentist who THINKS he's actually treating Hitler but isn't - remember that Hitlers very close friends couldn't tell the difference in the double(s)!
The x-ray cannot be confirmed as Hilter's. Confirmed against what? A very questionable copy of someone's x-ray what supposedly was Hitlers?
The later special agents only had the word of someone who was either (a) still loyal (b) unaware if they were treating a double (c) someone who told them what they wanted to hear (d) someone who wanted to feel special and/or take advantage of something they might say they are in possession of. Didn't he write a book later for profit?
The dental bridge has been shown to be very questionable to say the least!...the dental bridge the Russian's agents had in 1945 is the same one that Benecke examined in 2003.
Yes there is - and NONE of it has been proven 100%This is actual physical evidence.
There has been earlier estimates that they were what others said they were supposedly.
Only later, to be found out as totally false.When I asked you earlier if their was any physical or photograph evidence in the book, I meant physical evidence of his supposed stay in Argentina comparable to the above. From what I have read in reviews of the book - there isn't.
Just a lot of astounding details, a lot of witness statements, including Argentinian policemen, some people from whom were directly connected to Hitler and others who worked as servants (such as Catalina Gomero was the housemaid and virtual adopted daughter of the Eichhorn family. She waited on Hitler at their home in La Falda, in Cordoba Province in 1949. She said that his visit was "kept very, very secret." She also saw Hitler with the Eichhorns at their mountain retreat, El Castillo, that same year.), financial records, and much more as detailed in the book.
I don't expect you to change your mind - but read the book and decide for yourself if at all what the British and Americans have been saying publicly, is 100% true!
The Russians eventually DIDN'T eventually think Hitler was dead - and they were the ones with the supposed body parts to boot!
Again, as the publishers stated:This book raises many intriguing questions, but it does not conclusively settle the issue. Perhaps this is a mystery that will never be solved, as with so many other moments in time. Or perhaps, once this issue is in the public arena, other facts will come to light that will bring us closer to a definitive answer. The authors wrote this book in a search for the truth, and they may have found it. Inevitably, you, the reader, will be the ultimate judge.0 -
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To repeat above:
The x-ray cannot be confirmed as Hilter's.
The later special agents only had the word of someone who was either (a) still loyal (b) unaware if they were treating a double (c) someone who told them what they wanted to hear (d) someone who wanted to feel special and/or take advantage of something they might say they are in possession of. Didn't he write a book later for profit?
The dental bridge has been shown to be very questionable to say the least!
Yes there is - and NONE of it has been proven 100%
There has been earlier estimates that they were what others said they were supposedly.
Only later, to be found out as totally false.
Just a lot of astounding details, a lot of witness statements, including Argentinian policemen, some people from whom were directly connected to Hitler and others who worked as servants (such as Catalina Gomero was the housemaid and virtual adopted daughter of the Eichhorn family. She waited on Hitler at their home in La Falda, in Cordoba Province in 1949. She said that his visit was "kept very, very secret." She also saw Hitler with the Eichhorns at their mountain retreat, El Castillo, that same year.), financial records, and much more as detail in the book.
I don't expect you to change your mind - but read the book and decide for yourself.
Excellent advice!0 -
A can't see how a verifiable x-ray and piece of his jawbone could be part of a false trail.
"verifiable" but were they 100% - without any doubt?
...And thats including relying on those that its supposedly from and supposedly someone in '45 telling the truth!
As we know now, many didn't tell the truth!0 -
This has been doing the rounds since the end of May 45. I think it got started with the confusion the Soviets initially had when they found his butler and declared it was Hitler because he had somewhat of a resemblance to him, but then realised it wasn't and the idea that he might have got away and left a double became an outside possibility in some minds. I've seen various interviews with Hitler's secretary Junge and his personal aid/bodyguard Rochus Misch and both seem to give compelling testimony that he ended it in his personal quarters in the bunker in Berlin. I doubt they would lie for the rest of their lives, particularly considering such info would be the ultimate bargaining chip for a better life after the war. The fact that the legend of Bormann's possible escape through the ruins of Berlin has been proposed by several researchers, with some even claiming to have found a grave in Paraguay or Uruguay, also tends to make people believe Hitler could have gotten out. Add to that the fact that Hanna Reisch (a test pilot) got through unsafe airspace and landed a small plane in Berlin in late April, and successfully flew out again, shows escape through enemy airspace and AA guns was possible almost right up to end. I think Hitler didn't escape, I doubt his ego would have accepted the post-war world in Germany and the idea of being an anonymous ex-pat in South America, he would have spoke out, or somebody would have given up the secret for cash.0
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This book raises many intriguing questions, but it does not conclusively settle the issue. Perhaps this is a mystery that will never be solved, as with so many other moments in time. Or perhaps, once this issue is in the public arena, other facts will come to light that will bring us closer to a definitive answer. The authors wrote this book in a search for the truth, and they may have found it. Inevitably, you, the reader, will be the ultimate judge.
Which is a very convenient way of presenting the fact that they couldn't prove their case. I stand by Benecke's evidence until it has been proven otherwise. To me this book is classic conspiracy theory stuff and have no interest in reading it. Reading reviews like this this was enough....
http://www.amazon.ca/review/R2BW3YAVO52HGR0 -
666irishguy wrote: »This has been doing the rounds since the end of May 45. I think it got started with the confusion the Soviets initially had when they found his butler and declared it was Hitler because he had somewhat of a resemblance to him, but then realised it wasn't and the idea that he might have got away and left a double became an outside possibility in some minds. I've seen various interviews with Hitler's secretary Junge and his personal aid/bodyguard Rochus Misch and both seem to give compelling testimony that he ended it in his personal quarters in the bunker in Berlin. I doubt they would lie for the rest of their lives, particularly considering such info would be the ultimate bargaining chip for a better life after the war. The fact that the legend of Bormann's possible escape through the ruins of Berlin has been proposed by several researchers, with some even claiming to have found a grave in Paraguay or Uruguay, also tends to make people believe Hitler could have gotten out. Add to that the fact that Hanna Reisch (a test pilot) got through unsafe airspace and landed a small plane in Berlin in late April, and successfully flew out again, shows escape through enemy airspace and AA guns was possible almost right up to end. I think Hitler didn't escape, I doubt his ego would have accepted the post-war world in Germany and the idea of being an anonymous ex-pat in South America, he would have spoke out, or somebody would have given up the secret for cash.
I could point out many points which could be further debated and refuted - but those involved with the very heavy detailed book, do that better than I could - and do.
Hitler's secretary Junge and his personal aid/bodyguard Rochus Misch were left behind as part supposedly to keep to the pretence that it was in deed their loved Fuhrer with a bullet hole in his head.
They kept up this notion to their deaths (loyalty or genuine unknowing that at the last minute, there was a possible switch).
Someone had to remain behind (be they in pure innocence of not knowing or helping to keep up a pretence) that a supposed un-recognisable body burned, was supposedly their once boss.
Their words would/could throw any searchers off scent or even stop them!
There are many names, details and reports in the book about the later years of life in Paraguay. the following is just one of many up to now, unknown details... what is not widely known up to now is that there is reports which were asked for by J. Edgar Hoover of Hitler's presence (one example report was in Casino, Brazil, June 5, 1947. Hoover immediately asked for more details. An FBI report to Hoover, dated August 6, 1947, giving further details of Hitler and Braun's time in Casino, Brazil.) A number of such reports have emerged along with American agents as well as Argentinian one working for the Americans who identified the supposed Hitler and his wife, a number of times.0 -
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Which is a very convenient way of presenting the fact that they couldn't prove their case. I stand by Benecke's evidence until it has been proven otherwise. To me this book is classic conspiracy theory stuff and have no interest in reading it. Reading reviews like this this was enough....
http://www.amazon.ca/review/R2BW3YAVO52HGR
Well your judging a book by judging the judges.
Daftness in itself.
(Who the hell is "Roger Clark" anyway? O' wait, just another person. What's his qualifications again did you say, to give an expert judgement? He himself relies on un-named 'experts' (who?) without even their back-up refuting evidence!)
...So your judging a book by judging a judge who has judged an opinion based upon even more so called 'experts'/judges!
Right... got it!
Seeing as you have made up your mind and "have no interest in reading it" - your denying yourself hundreds of pages of very detailed and documented facts.
A foolish position to take, to say the least.
To not even look at further established facts which expose another side to the story put out, is like the ostrich once again sticking its head in the sand, just not wishing to hear any different in defiance others!
I suggest you at least read the book - but your not even willing to.
There is no point in discussing this matter with someone so belligerent and non-open minded - nor willing to be.0 -
I could point out many points which could be further debated and refuted - but those involved with the very heavy detailed book, do that better than I could - and do.
Hitler's secretary Junge and his personal aid/bodyguard Rochus Misch were left behind as part supposedly to keep to the pretence that it was in deed their loved Fuhrer with a bullet hole in his head.
They kept up this notion to their deaths (loyalty or genuine unknowing that at the last minute, there was a possible switch).
Someone had to remain behind (be they in pure innocence of not knowing or helping to keep up a pretence) that a supposed un-recognisable body burned, was supposedly their once boss.
Their words would/could throw any searchers off scent or even stop them!
There are many names, details and reports in the book about the later years of life in Paraguay. the following is just one of many up to now, unknown details... what is not widely known up to now is that there is reports which were asked for by J. Edgar Hoover of Hitler's presence (one example report was in Casino, Brazil, June 5, 1947. Hoover immediately asked for more details. An FBI report to Hoover, dated August 6, 1947, giving further details of Hitler and Braun's time in Casino, Brazil.) A number of such reports have emerged along with American agents as well as Argentinian one working for the Americans who identified the supposed Hitler and his wife, a number of times.
It would be an outlandishly complicated deception and a secret almost too big to keep, though not totally beyond the realms of possibility given the characters involved. Do they mention the exact method of escape? I assume it would have to be by light aircraft to a submarine base that was still operating or in their hands.0 -
666irishguy wrote: »It would be an outlandishly complicated deception and a secret almost too big to keep, though not totally beyond the realms of possibility given the characters involved. Do they mention the exact method of escape? I assume it would have to be by light aircraft to a submarine base that was still operating or in their hands.
Quite correct - and during the several legs of the airborne part of the escape AH and Braun were seen - and recognised - by many, many people including a group of some 300 German troops in the process of evacuation. He is said to have addressed them en masse and spoken to many individually - many accounts are published in the book!0 -
666irishguy wrote: »...Do they mention the exact method of escape? I assume it would have to be by light aircraft to a submarine base that was still operating or in their hands.
YES.
And back it up with further taken statements, times, dates, details, etc.
EchoO cleveryly provided a link to one reviewer.
In doing so he cleverly was able to not let others appear above or below it.
Well if we are going to pick a random reviewer who's words suit our points of view, here's another from the same book sales site.
By G. Poirier: http://www.amazon.ca/product-reviews/1402781393/ref=cm_cr_dp_see_all_btm?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescendingIf so many Nazi war criminals escaped capture after World War II - most living out the rest of their lives somewhere in the world - then why not Hitler? After all, it appears that there has never been any irrefutable forensic evidence proving that Hitler died in April, 1945. For anyone who may have ever pondered this issue, as I have, this book should be most intriguing. Using various sources as well as deductive research, the authors, both highly reputable, make the case that Hitler may indeed have escaped Germany in April, 1945.
Much of the first half of the book is comprised of well-documented historical facts about WWII with particular emphasis placed on the loot acquired by the Nazis and its storage under several forms and in different places in the world. Also highlighted are Bormann's efforts in developing an escape plan for Hitler, should Germany lose the war. The rest of the book focuses on the details of Hitler's hypothetical escape and relocation in Argentina as well as some details of his life there - all gleaned from various sources. But here again, no conclusive irrefutable proof is provided that Hitler escaped at all.
The authors have based their case on different documents (including recently-released FBI and CIA reports), certain memoirs of key individuals and eye-witness testimonies from various people who have seen Hitler both during his escape and while living in Argentina - testimonies that, although independent of one another, are mutually consistent. Other interesting revelations contained in this book are that Martin Bormann and Heinrich Muller also successfully escaped; and that Hitler and Eva Braun had two daughters of their own while Hitler had other children from other women. The book contains extensive references and many documented details that support the arguments presented.
I found this book to be extremely well-written. The prose is clear, lively, riveting and highly accessible. I gave this book a maximum rating because I thoroughly enjoyed it and, as a non-specialist, I found the case presented highly plausible. The information provided here may lead to more research on this sure-to-be contentious issue.
Or maybe another:By crobcole (Bolton, UK) -
This review is from: Grey Wolf: The Escape of Adolf Hitler (Hardcover)
I've been lucky enough to read this pre-publication and it's an absolutely stunning work. I approached it with a great deal of scepticism, because like just about everybody else, I'd accepted the word of all those who claimed Adolph Hitler killed himself in Berlin in 1945. However, five years of painstaking research by these two guys, Williams and Dunstan, has given us a far more believable and acceptable account of the fate of the Fuhrer. He escaped to the Argentinian mountains alongside many of his henchmen and fellow Nazis and lived a peaceful, luxurious life until the early 1960's when he died from natural causes. There will be many who will try and pick this epic journalism apart, but in the end, I suspect, most will concede that the story is almost certainly the truth.
But then I could have picked them only because they suit my point of view.
I'm open to be very wrong in ALL things.
Some of us are not even willing to listen to others and study the very important details to, be a good judge!0 -
Well your judging a book by judging the judges.
Daftness in itself.
(Who the hell is "Roger Clark" anyway? O' wait, just another person. What's his qualifications again did you say, to give an expert judgement? He himself relies on un-named 'experts' (who?) without even their back-up refuting evidence!)
...So your judging a book by judging a judge who has judged an opinion based upon even more so called 'experts'/judges!
Right... got it!
Seeing as you have made up your mind and "have no interest in reading it" - your denying yourself hundreds of pages of very detailed and documented facts.
A foolish position to take, to say the least.
To not even look at further established facts which expose another side to the story put out, is like the ostrich once again sticking its head in the sand, just not wishing to hear any different in defiance others!
I suggest you at least read the book - but your not even willing to.
There is no point in discussing this matter with someone so belligerent and non-open minded - nor willing to be.
If I was going to spent time reading a book on how and where Hilter died this isn't the book that I would choose. You rate it - fine that's your prerogative. If you think that makes me small minded an belligerent - again fine, I couldn't care less tbh.0 -
If I was going to spent time reading a book on how and where Hilter died this isn't the book that I would choose. You rate it - fine that's your prerogative. If you think that makes me small minded an belligerent - again fine, I couldn't care less tbh.
Fair enough. Thats your right.
Feel free to tell us what other book you would chose that might espouse that Hitler lived after 1945.
Feel free to tell us why you judge this one to be bad - where another one might be better!
I rate the book as interesting and opens possibilities and questions that others (besides those involved in the book) have not asked.
As long as others are not even willing to look at other details which might upset their precious staunch view, the world become a further place with no compromise and/or continued belligerency.
Look where that has got the world in the past and present!0 -
If I was going to spent time reading a book on how and where Hilter died this isn't the book that I would choose. You rate it - fine that's your prerogative. If you think that makes me small minded an belligerent - again fine, I couldn't care less tbh.
You remind me of an acquaintance of mine from more than two decades ago!
I worked in the print-media (predominantly) for a dozen years both here and in the UK - for more than two-thirds of that time I covered crime/courts, my last position being with a Dublin-based national newspaper.
I used to bump into this guy a couple of times a week in my (then) local. He used to ask which case I was covering, and then give me his "take" on the crime in question - he had every base covered - means, motive, opportunity etc, he would forensically disect every par in every paper and watch every TV report concerning the case!
What he couldn't appreciate, however, was that news coverage of an event is just a miniscule precis of the actual proceedings - more than four hours of testimony distilled into five or six pars, or 30secs of airtime!
A bit like judging a book by a review!0 -
PapaQuebec wrote: »Quite correct - and during the several legs of the airborne part of the escape AH and Braun were seen - and recognised - by many, many people including a group of some 300 German troops in the process of evacuation. He is said to have addressed them en masse and spoken to many individually - many accounts are published in the book!
It sounds unbelievable but I couldn't say it's wouldn't have been impossible. I'd also wonder though, was this some kind of double being whisked around to the troops to perhaps give them a morale boost. The fact that Eva Braun was there though, might disqualify that idea considering virtually nobody outside the inner circle would have known who she was.0 -
666irishguy wrote: »It sounds unbelievable but I couldn't say it's wouldn't have been impossible. I'd also wonder though, was this some kind of double being whisked around to the troops to perhaps give them a morale boost. The fact that Eva Braun was there though, might disqualify that idea considering virtually nobody outside the inner circle would have known who she was.
The need for a "morale boost" was long over by this time!
Some of the troops AH met (and signed autographs for) were subsequently captured by the Russians. It's likely that their testimony is the cause of Stalin never believing in Hitlers' death!0 -
YES.
And back it up with further taken statements, times, dates, details, etc.
EchoO cleveryly provided a link to one reviewer.
In doing so he cleverly was able to not let others appear above or below it.
Well if we are going to pick a random reviewer who's words suit our points of view, here's another from the same book sales site.
By G. Poirier: http://www.amazon.ca/product-reviews/1402781393/ref=cm_cr_dp_see_all_btm?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending
Or maybe another:
But then I could have picked them only because they suit my point of view.
I'm open to be very wrong in ALL things.
Some of us are not even willing to listen to others and study the very important details to, be a good judge!
I would be highly sceptical of such a claim myself. But all I would say is that it would not be impossible. The did have the newer subs that could stay submerged almost indefinitely with the aid of a snorkel and had the range to reach South America. Also there was still methods of getting out of Berlin. I suppose the biggest thing that would mystify me, is why he remained silent after the war. The reason behind it happening is fairly straight-forward. so it's probably less bizzare than the whole Hess flight.0 -
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666irishguy wrote: »I would be highly sceptical of such a claim myself. But all I would say is that it would not be impossible. The did have the newer subs that could stay submerged almost indefinitely with the aid of a snorkel and had the range to reach South America. Also there was still methods of getting out of Berlin. I suppose the biggest thing that would mystify me, is why he remained silent after the war. The reason behind it happening is fairly straight-forward. so it's probably less bizzare than the whole Hess flight.
With the greatest of respect, what do you think he should have done?
Given a press-conference?
The first sniff of AH in Patagonia would have had Mossad or its pre-'49 equivalent heading hotfoot for South America!0 -
PapaQuebec wrote: »The need for a "morale boost" was long over by this time!
Some of the troops AH met (and signed autographs for) were subsequently captured by the Russians. It's likely that their testimony is the cause of Stalin never believing in Hitlers' death!
Maybe he was handing out morale pills. Seriously though perhaps a morale boost might not be the right way of looking at it. He (Hitler or the double) could have been feeding them the lie that he was on his way to meet the Americans to discuss linking up with them and attacking the Soviets together. It might have given them hope to hold out a few days longer. Impossible to say. If such testimony was given by German POW's to the Soviets, It would be difficult not to think that they would have told the Soviet's anything they wanted to hear.0 -
666irishguy wrote: »I would be highly sceptical of such a claim myself. But all I would say is that it would not be impossible. The did have the newer subs that could stay submerged almost indefinitely with the aid of a snorkel and had the range to reach South America. Also there was still methods of getting out of Berlin. I suppose the biggest thing that would mystify me, is why he remained silent after the war. The reason behind it happening is fairly straight-forward. so it's probably less bizzare than the whole Hess flight.
Thats something I was wondering and was going to check today. You just saved me the effort.
Seeing that they had the ability to make such a long journey, plus the fact that light aircraft made it in and out undetected around that time, plus the secret passage way makes it a very real possibility.
Started the book last night and it's very well written thus far.0 -
666irishguy wrote: »Maybe he was handing out morale pills. Seriously though perhaps a morale boost might not be the right way of looking at it. He (Hitler or the double) could have been feeding them the lie that he was on his way to meet the Americans to discuss linking up with them and attacking the Soviets together. It might have given them hope to hold out a few days longer. Impossible to say. If such testimony was given by German POW's to the Soviets, It would be difficult not to think that they would have told the Soviet's anything they wanted to hear.
As has been said before on this thread: Why not read the book?
It's here:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ujvjrojbaofuaoa/u3iqF2pHSm0 -
PapaQuebec wrote: »With the greatest of respect, what do you think he should have done?
Given a press-conference?
The first sniff of AH in Patagonia would have had Mossad or its pre-'49 equivalent heading hotfoot for South America!PapaQuebec wrote: »As has been said before on this thread: Why not read the book?
It's here:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ujvjrojbaofuaoa/u3iqF2pHSm
Yeah that is a valid point on the press conference! he would have been the NO.1 target for every intelligence service on the Allied and Soviet side. I suppose I am really wondering why we never got a posthumous manifesto or statement. I am definitely going to get a copy of this book.0 -
666irishguy wrote: »Yeah that is a valid point on the press conference! he would have been the NO.1 target for every intelligence service on the Allied and Soviet side. I suppose I am really wondering why we never got a posthumous manifesto or statement. I am definitely going to get a copy of this book.
Click the link in my last post and download it in the format that suits you best!
Enjoy!0 -
Sorry, I can't countenance someone using "good", "History channel" and "documentary" in the same sentence. This, the channel that brought us Ancient Aliens, Sliced, UFO Hunters and MonsterQuest shouldn't be brought up in any kind of serious discussion of history.There was a very good History channel documentary that was on air a few months back.0 -
Sulla Felix wrote: »Sorry, I can't countenance someone using "good", "History channel" and "documentary" in the same sentence. This, the channel that brought us Ancient Aliens, Sliced, UFO Hunters and MonsterQuest shouldn't be brought up in any kind of serious discussion of history.
I know the type.
The "documentaries" that assume the viewers' IQ is so low, and their attention-span so limited as to require a 3-minute recap every 10 mins!0 -
PapaQuebec wrote: »Click the link in my last post and download it in the format that suits you best!
Enjoy!
Will do. Thanks for the link.0 -
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Sulla Felix wrote: »Sorry, I can't countenance someone using "good", "History channel" and "documentary" in the same sentence. This, the channel that brought us Ancient Aliens, Sliced, UFO Hunters and MonsterQuest shouldn't be brought up in any kind of serious discussion of history.
* The bible bring us supposed good advice on how to live our lives while speaking of other daft things.
* The TV's around the world can bring us good programmes which also showing rubbish too - most of the time on the same channels.
* The newspapers of the world on one page can bring us startling accurate investigations while on another go off about celeb' rubbish.
"Don't shoot the messenger JUST because of the message!"
Look at it this way, if a German institution (or many of them as it appears) can organise the rape of Europe, the destruction of cities from East to West, can invent machinery (which even the Americans then had to steal and utilise later) and kill millions in organised death camps and organise even transporting them there while stealing every bit of their goods, even down to their gold teeth, take many billions - then they took ALL the above assets/money and more and then churned it into thousands of companies the world over besides 900 complex self created/invented businesses for their own ends, does anyone really think they could not have the brains to prepare (as they did and then intensified in '43) for arranging for some method to slip away and reap the later rewards of their activities?0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fst-KFybn8o
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