New book claims Hitler died in Argentina

666irishguy · 16-09-2012 5:44pm

gnfnrhead wrote: »

Thats something I was wondering and was going to check today. You just saved me the effort.

Seeing that they had the ability to make such a long journey, plus the fact that light aircraft made it in and out undetected around that time, plus the secret passage way makes it a very real possibility.

Started the book last night and it's very well written thus far.

Yeah the type XXI U-boat had amazing range for a diesel boat and considering it would have been a one way trip, they could have taken a more elaborate route in theory. You can have a look at it on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Type_XXI_submarine
I'm going to give the book a read as well.

EchoO · 16-09-2012 5:53pm

Biggins wrote: »

Fair enough. Thats your right.

Ah feck, I read the post before the edit and thought that was it(joke btw)

PapaQuebec wrote: »

You remind me of an acquaintance of mine from more than two decades ago!

Ah come on, we have only exchanged a few posts on an anonymous message board. My point from the outset is that there is compelling evidence elsewhere(Benecke's) that the contention of this book can not be true. From what I have read elsewhere, Benecke's evidence is not addressed in the book and no comparable provided to make the case that Hitler was in fact ever in Argentina. This is enough for me not to read it.

If I was to choose a book to read instead it be The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William Shirer. Or the books on which the film Downfallen is based - Until the final hour by Traudl Junge, Inside Hilter's bunker by Joachim Fest and Hitler's last days: An eye-withness account by Gerhardt Boldt.

Biggins · 16-09-2012 5:58pm

There seems to be a lot of to and fro about one Mark Benecke and his supposed comparing of teeth to an x-ray (which has been questioned).

...Which by the way - no one else before or after has been able to confirm - but anyway...

SAN JOSE MERCURY
February 20, 1987

"The teeth of corpse DON'T MATCH Führer's pictures"

1. Two lower bridges in corpse, NOT INSTALLED BY HITLER'S DENTIST when questioned.
2. No evidence of root canal in corpse, DENTIST PERFORMED ROOT CANAL.
3. Natural teeth on corpse, DENTIST SAID HITLER'S LOWER RIGHT TOOTH WAS PORCELAIN.
4. Gaps on autopsy report not present on HITLER'S DENTAL RECORD.

Dr. Robert Dorion, Director of Forensic Dentistry for the Ministry of Solicitor General, Quebec
Information presented last week to AMERICAN ACADEMY OF FORENSIC SCIENCES

I assume that Dr. Robert Dorion also knows his stuff.

http://tst.greyfalcon.us/deadoralive.html

In July 1943 Pierre J. Huss, chief correspondent in Berlin for the International News Service who had interviewed Hitler several times during the 1930s and 1940s, filed a report which concluded:

But Hitler, unlike Il Duce, probably will ride the storm to the bitter end, wildly spilling oceans of blood in occupied countries and even in the Reich itself, and kill himself rather than follow Mussolini's example and resign.

That same year a classified psychological report by the Office of Strategic Services came to the same conclusion.

So the question remains, do we believe a foreign soil psychological report or do we instead also put faith in many other reports that say different?

Its up to the reader.

A book by H. D. Baumann entitled Hitler's Fate, an objective read, exposes the rumours, falsehoods and conspiracies revolving around the historically accepted death of Hitler on April 30th 1945. The consensus is that Hitler poisoned his wife, Eva, and his favourite dog, Blondi, using cyanide capsules, and then shot himself. However there are several large holes in the historical documentation of the event:

If Hitler shot himself in the right temple, why do the Russians exhibit what is claimed to be Hitler's cranium, showing a bullet hole in the back of his head?

There were ten official reports (conducted by NKVD and SMERSH officials, and also by the only permitted Western official) on his suicide, none of them agreed on the same method of suicide; altering in scene, gun placement and even if a gun was even involved.

Hitler had a double. Eye witness reports state that people in the bunker noticed a significant and immediate change in Hitler's personality several days before he apparently committed suicide. He appeared shorter (Hitler's double was 2 inches shorter and often had to wear special shoes), was despondent (drugged against his will), allowed smoking (Hitler never allowed smoking near him), and his sleep patterns changed entirely: Hitler would always work late into the night and sleep in during the morning.

The Russians first exhibited the corpse of Hitler's double, believing it to be the real thing.

The Russians later admitted they never actually found the whole corpse of Hitler or Eva Braun.

Why did the Russians not allow the Western allies to see the 'autopsy report' of Hitler's supposed corpse?

Hitler's private plane landed in neutral (or loosely German-allied) Barcelona, Spain, on April 27th 1945, three days before the alleged suicide. Two months later, three German submarines surfaced and landed off the cost of South Argentina - a hot spot for hiding Nazi war criminals (Mengele, Priebke, etc). The timeframe all coincide perfectly with that required to travel from Berlin.

Stalin was adament, and told President Truman and his military Generals and the NKVD and SMERSH, that he believed Hitler had escaped, until the time of his death.

The propaganda machines of WWII would have been in their full swing at this point in the war. The Soviet Army would have been desperate to say that Hitler was dead, and that he took the coward's way out. What country of those times, after such a devastating war, would want to publicly admit he'd slipped through the cracks? That the most despised person in the twentieth century had escaped?

Just read the book and judge for one's self.

PapaQuebec · 16-09-2012 6:08pm

EchoO wrote: »

Ah feck, I read the post before the edit and thought that was it(joke btw)

Ah come on, we have only exchanged a few posts on an anonymous message board. My point from the outset is that there is compelling evidence elsewhere(Benecke's) that the contention of this book can not be true. From what I have read elsewhere, Benecke's evidence is not addressed in the book and no comparable provided to make the case that Hitler was in fact ever in Argentina. This is enough for me not to read it.

If I was to choose a book to read instead it be The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William Shirer. Or the books on which the film Downfallen is based - Until the final hour by Traudl Junge, Inside Hilter's bunker by Joachim Fest and Hitler's last days: An eye-withness account by Gerhardt Boldt.

And my point is that you seem willing to dismiss any scenario that doesn't match your preconceived notion based pretty much on the evidence of one man - the Sid Vicious of Forensic Odontology!

In a previous post you quote Benecke mentioning the fragment of "Hitlers" skull and pieces of "Hitlers" jawbone in the same piece...

...the skull has been well debunked, so what of the jawbone and teeth?

Biggins · 16-09-2012 6:10pm

......the skull has been well debunked, so what of the jawbone and teeth?

Debunked too - see above.

T-K-O · 16-09-2012 6:12pm

didn't every Nazi die in Argentina

PapaQuebec · 16-09-2012 6:12pm

Biggins wrote: »

Debunked too - see above.

Our posts crossed!

EchoO · 16-09-2012 6:13pm

Biggins wrote: »

There seems to be a lot of to and fro about one Mark Benecke and his supposed comparing of teeth to an x-ray (which has been questioned).

...Which by the way - no one else before or after has been able to confirm - but anyway...

I assume that Dr. Robert Dorion also knows his stuff.

http://tst.greyfalcon.us/deadoralive.html

There is no supposing about it he did compare teeth to an x-ray in 2003. Dorian analysis was carried out in 1987, from memory there is somewhere in greyfalcon.us where Benecke says the use of ditigal cameras made the conclusion possible. Something that wouldn't have been available to Dr. Dorion.

EchoO · 16-09-2012 6:15pm

Biggins wrote: »

Debunked too - see above.

No it hasn't.:)

Sulla Felix · 16-09-2012 6:15pm

Biggins wrote: »

* The bible bring us supposed good advice on how to live our lives while speaking of other daft things.

* The TV's around the world can bring us good programmes which also showing rubbish too - most of the time on the same channels.

* The newspapers of the world on one page can bring us startling accurate investigations while on another go off about celeb' rubbish.

"Don't shoot the messenger JUST because of the message!"

Look at it this way, if a German institution (or many of them as it appears) can organise the rape of Europe, the destruction of cities from East to West, can invent machinery (which even the Americans then had to steal and utilise later) and kill millions in organised death camps and organise even transporting them there while stealing every bit of their goods, even down to their gold teeth, take many billions - then they took ALL the above assets/money and more and then churned it into thousands of companies the world over besides 900 complex self created/invented businesses for their own ends, does anyone really think they could not have the brains to prepare (as they did and then intensified in '43) for arranging for some method to slip away and reap the later rewards of their activities?

Oh, I make no claims about the theory. I just think you do yourself a disservice by citing the history channel.
I'll be reading the book starting tonight thanks to PapaQuebec.

EchoO · 16-09-2012 6:18pm

PapaQuebec wrote: »

And my point is that you seem willing to dismiss any scenario that doesn't match your preconceived notion based pretty much on the evidence of one man - the Sid Vicious of Forensic Odontology!

In a previous post you quote Benecke mentioning the fragment of "Hitlers" skull and pieces of "Hitlers" jawbone in the same piece...

...the skull has been well debunked, so what of the jawbone and teeth?

Have you something against punks? The skull pieces DNA was tested after 2003. The jawbones DNA has never been tested.

Biggins · 16-09-2012 6:18pm

EchoO wrote: »

There is no supposing about it he did compare teeth to an x-ray in 2003. Dorian analysis was carried out in 1987, from memory there is somewhere in greyfalcon.us where Benecke says the use of ditigal cameras made the conclusion possible. Something that wouldn't have been available to Dr. Dorion.

Benecke says he compared some alleged teeth to an alleged x-ray of supposedly Hitler.
Yet the x-ray itself stands questioned because if only there was things in it that shouldn't and other things that should be in it but were not!

...And thats not even getting to how the x-ray was supposed to have come about in the first place when:

On a Canadian Broadcasting Corporation program called "As It Happens," September 17th, 1974 at 7:15 p.m., a Prof. Dr. Ryder Saguenay, oral surgeon from the Dental Faculty of the University of California at Los Angeles, said that Hitler had ordered a special plane to leave from Berlin with all medical and dental records, especially X-rays, of all top Nazis for an unknown destination.

http://tst.greyfalcon.us/deadoralive.html

If you even bother to look at the above site alone, it can be read that indeed there was much faking done - and this was all found out eventually.

trashcan · 16-09-2012 6:19pm

Immaculate Pasta wrote: »

So Hitler fled to Argentina and lived in a house share with Elvis and Tupac?

I SMELL A SITCOM!

It's actually been done, believe it or not. (Well, kinda)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heil_Honey_I'm_Home!

Biggins · 16-09-2012 6:22pm

Sulla Felix wrote: »

Oh, I make no claims about the theory. I just think you do yourself a disservice by citing the history channel.
I'll be reading the book starting tonight thanks to PapaQuebec.

Enjoy the book and question everything - including the parts which might show Hitler escaped.
Just keep an open mind.

EchoO · 16-09-2012 6:25pm

Biggins wrote: »

If you even bother to look at the above site alone

What's with the bloody attitude, I don't agree with you - it's no big deal. I don't agree with your logic as you set it out above either - again no big deal.

PapaQuebec · 16-09-2012 6:33pm

EchoO wrote: »

Have you something against punks? The skull pieces DNA was tested after 2003. The jawbones DNA has never been tested.

I questioned Benecke's choice of phraseology that's all:)

I knew many "punks" during the '70's and I doubt their nihilistic ideology would have marked them out as future scientists - but that's a moot point!

If, as you say, the jawbone hasn't been DNA tested then you're "quoting from a book with a chapter missing" aren't you?

You don't have the full story - as no-one here has either"

Why not just read the book and come back and discuss it? I'm sure there are many here who would enjoy the debate!

Cosmo K · 16-09-2012 6:34pm

Hitler died in Argentina? What a nice fairytale:rolleyes:

What about the Hitler biography Ian Kershaw wrote? Which is widely accepted as the best book ever written about Hitler, I read the book, its very well researched, he couldn't find any evidence, that Hitler escaped from Berlin.

Was he wrong? Were all the other historians, who have written about Hitler wrong? Or were they all part of the conspirancy?

EchoO · 16-09-2012 6:37pm

PapaQuebec wrote: »

I questioned Benecke's choice of phraseology that's all:)

I knew many "punks" during the '70's and I doubt their nihilistic ideology would have marked them out as future scientists - but that's a moot point!

If, as you say, the jawbone hasn't been DNA tested then you're "quoting from a book with a chapter missing" aren't you?

You don't have the full story - as no-one here has either"

True, testing it would be such an obvious thing to do. It wound end all debate then and there. I have no idea why it hasn't been done. If they do test it and it's shows not to be him then I'll read the book.

Zab · 16-09-2012 6:38pm

All I'm seeing here is the author pointing out some issues with the "official" line but then providing equally shaky "evidence" for a story hundreds of times more fantastic.

PapaQuebec · 16-09-2012 6:38pm

Cosmo K wrote: »

Hitler died in Argentina? What a nice fairytale:rolleyes:

What about the Hitler biography Ian Kershaw wrote? Which is widely accepted as the best book ever written about Hitler, I read the book, its very well researched, he couldn't find any evidence, that Hitler escaped from Berlin.

Was he wrong? Were all the other historians, who have written about Hitler wrong? Or were they all part of the conspirancy?

I suppose - and it's only supposition - that if you embark on a giant conspiracy spanning several years and involving billions in looted cash and valuables, you tend to do it with graet attention to detail.

Let's not forget that one of the most eminent cheerleaders for the "Hitler died in the bunker" faction was Hugh Trevor-Roper (Lord Dacre) - The guy who "authenticated the "Hitler Diaries"!!!

PapaQuebec · 16-09-2012 6:40pm

Zab wrote: »

All I'm seeing here is the author pointing out some issues with the "official" line but then providing equally shaky "evidence" for a story hundreds of times more fantastic.

Exactly what I thought when I started reading the book!

Biggins · 16-09-2012 6:42pm

Cosmo K wrote: »

Hitler died in Argentina? What a nice fairytale:rolleyes:

What about the Hitler biography Ian Kershaw wrote? Which is widely accepted as the best book ever written about Hitler, I read the book, its very well researched, he couldn't find any evidence, that Hitler escaped from Berlin.

Was he wrong? Were all the other historians, who have written about Hitler wrong? Or were they all part of the conspirancy?

Its well documented that many, many Nazi's used the Ratlines to get there.
One simple example of a few: http://english.ohmynews.com/articleview/article_view.asp?at_code=336951
Another single example: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2099282/How-Nazi-used-ratline-escape-route-flee-South-America-war-daughter-woman-seduced.html

What would be one more done under a well planned operation?

Cosmo K · 16-09-2012 6:45pm

PapaQuebec wrote: »

I suppose - and it's only supposition - that if you embark on a giant conspiracy spanning several years and involving billions in looted cash and valuables, you tend to do it with graet attention to detail.

Attention to detail? The red army was fighting its way through Berlin, in one of the hardest battles of the war. Hitler was trapped in his bunker right in the middle of it, suffering from parkinson desease, his generals deserting him, Himmler negotiating with the allies.....not the time to make elaborate plans if you ask me.

There was only one way out for him and he took the easy way out, the coward.......

Biggins · 16-09-2012 6:46pm

PapaQuebec wrote: »

Exactly what I thought when I started reading the book!

Honestly, as did I - but the wealth of information within the book made me at least look again at the possibilities and IT DID explain the financial aspects and a period of history under Peron, in Argentina, very well.

Cosmo K wrote: »

...There was only one way out for him and he took the easy way out...

No, there was a number of established ways out.
Many, many used them.

Cosmo K · 16-09-2012 6:47pm

Biggins wrote: »

What would be one more done under a well planned operation?

Let me ask you a question.Why do you want to believe, that Hitler escaped to Argentina?

Biggins · 16-09-2012 6:56pm

Cosmo K wrote: »

Let me ask you a question. Why do you want to believe, that Hitler escaped to Argentina?

I DON'T want to believe he escaped to Argentina - thats the point.
The fact that, that utter murderer could have scappered and lived onwards, is a horrible thought!
He should have been captured alive and slowly burned to death for a week!

The book (also a partial compilation of others work/research before the present authors) offers that all is not maybe what its seems.

The creators of the present book put forth records, many, many, many statements and evidence to say that his escaping is (or was) a possibility.

They ask you to question the WW2 winners writing of history.
They raise many interesting questions based on new evidence and aspects which others had not access to and/or were willing to not question due to their own fixed ideas (and not willing to look at others - some things don't change)!

PapaQuebec · 16-09-2012 6:56pm

Cosmo K wrote: »

Attention to detail? The red army was fighting its way through Berlin, in one of the hardest battles of the war. Hitler was trapped in his bunker right in the middle of it, suffering from parkinson desease, his generals deserting him, Himmler negotiating with the allies.....not the time to make elaborate plans if you ask me.

There was only one way out for him and he took the easy way out, the coward.......

If you read the book you will see that plans for escape to Sth America had been in hand for several years - do you think the billions transported to Argentina were solely for the benefit of the Perons?

As for "Parkinsons disease", there is evidence that the symptoms were faked to give more credence to Gustav Weber, a seriously sick man who suffered from the shakes!

The book establishes - in my mind at least - that the final footage of "Hitler" meeting-and-greeting the defenders of Berlin in the final days wasn't Hitler at all....why?

Why bother?

The war is lost and you're going to pop yourself. Why appear in public at all? And therefore why fake a public appearance?

Unless, as the authors postulate, AH had already left Berlin.

Again, according to the book, during his journey to the Canaries (from where he set sail for Sth America) Hitler and Braun encountered not one, not a few, but hundreds of people who recognised him instantly, and the authors reproduce detailed witness accounts to back this up!

Cosmo K · 16-09-2012 7:07pm

So, let me get this straight, one guy writes a book about the possibility that Hitler could have escaped to Argentina. And now, history has to be re-written, and all the other historians were wrong?

About 40 years ago, Erich von Daniken wrote a book, in which he claimed, that mankind had been visited by Aliens. That they helped to build the pyramids....that they had sexual relations with us earthlings...He presented all kinds of "evidence" over the years, he sold millions of copies and I still don't believe him.

Same with this book, in my opinion, its a money making exercise, nothing more.

PapaQuebec · 16-09-2012 7:10pm

Cosmo K wrote: »

So, let me get this straight, one guy writes a book about the possibility that Hitler could have escaped to Argentina. And now, history has to be re-written, and all the other historians were wrong?

About 40 years ago, Erich von Daniken wrote a book, in which he claimed, that mankind had been visited by Aliens. That they helped to build the pyramids....that they had sexual relations with us earthlings...He presented all kinds of "evidence" over the years, he sold millions of copies and I still don't believe him.

Same with this book, in my opinion, its a money making exercise, nothing more.

Q1. Did you read von Daniken's book?

Q2. Have you read this book?

Biggins · 16-09-2012 7:21pm

Cosmo K wrote: »

So, let me get this straight, one guy writes a book about the possibility that Hitler could have escaped to Argentina. And now, history has to be re-written, and all the other historians were wrong?

About 40 years ago, Erich von Daniken wrote a book, in which he claimed, that mankind had been visited by Aliens. That they helped to build the pyramids....that they had sexual relations with us earthlings...He presented all kinds of "evidence" over the years, he sold millions of copies and I still don't believe him.

Same with this book, in my opinion, its a money making exercise, nothing more.

To compare Erich von Daniken's book to the one put forth by TWO authors and much research (documented) is mad.

Daniken's book didn't include many, many statements, documents, government reports from many governments, financial statements, and much more.

Hell, you would be better comparing Daniken's book with the bible!

It COULD be a money making exercise but by heavens, sadly it raises some shocking possibilities in its wake!

Flincher · 16-09-2012 8:03pm

Biggins wrote: »

A number of people who were down the line connected to the Hitler family died off.
The last one was in New York under a changed name.
He is still buried there in an unmarked (but known location) grave.
Previously he and others supposedly agreed not to continue the Hitler line.

That would be an unexpected answer to the "so honey, why don't you want to have kids?" question.

"Well, eh...you know that Hitler guy?......."

marcsignal · 16-09-2012 8:52pm

Hitler's Death The Final Report - Operation Myth

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj9ENqq-lIg

Hitler's Escape

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCyfiG7aTB4

Hitler in the Andes Part 1-5

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWdp72E-c2I

Hitler in the Andes Part 2-5

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0K65xb7sF0

Hitler in the Andes Part 3-5

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5T9juWbZcc

Hitler in the Andes Part 4-5

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbrgLW7Ycrc

Hitler in the Andes Part 5-5

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPu0yDgjqdM

Cosmo K · 16-09-2012 9:13pm

Biggins wrote: »

Hell, you would be better comparing Daniken's book with the bible!

After reading the book, are you a 100% convinced that Hitler died in Argentina?

pipie · 16-09-2012 9:20pm

How could he not have been in Argentina?

PapaQuebec · 16-09-2012 9:22pm

Cosmo K wrote: »

Biggins wrote: »

Hell, you would be better comparing Daniken's book with the bible!

After reading the book, are you a 100% convinced that Hitler died in Argentina?

Apologies for answering a question asked of someone else. After reading the book I'm convinced that the full story has yet to be told. I'm equally convinced Hitler may well have escaped Berlin and Germany.

If the witnesses quoted in the book are truthful (the same for the documentation) then what else is there but a distinct possibilty

pipie · 16-09-2012 9:23pm

Hande hoche! wrote: »

Stalin kept Hitler's skull as an ash tray.

That skull has been proven by DNA to be of a womans.

Biggins · 16-09-2012 9:26pm

Cosmo K wrote: »

After reading the book, are you a 100% convinced that Hitler died in Argentina?

No. (Absence of a positive does NOT prove a negative)

I am also NOT 100% convinced he died in Berlin either.

There is unanswered truth being hid from the public by certain named governments.

Biggins · 16-09-2012 11:02pm

There is one other huge aspect that has not gone explained in the last days of Hitler as we know it.

The use of his (Gustav Weber) double was used just before his masters supposed suicide by the double handing out medals (pic here), yet on the day that a shot rang out in the bunker, Gustav Weber was never found there after. He simply just vanished.

All there was after that day, was a extreme bad charred remain of a body that looked supposedly like Hitler and Gustav Weber, known to be in the city (and remember just how hard it supposedly was to get out - as others said it would have been for Hitler too) simply was seen and heard of no more. He too disappeared for ever more as a person.

Cosmo K · 16-09-2012 11:20pm

Why is it so hard to believe, that Hitler died in Berlin? And whats that nonsense that Hitler and Eva Braun had two daughters? He never even f$cked her, did they use a sperm donor?

Cosmo K · 16-09-2012 11:29pm

Very interesting discussion with one of the authors of the book:

http://www.ww2f.com/alternate-history/52303-grey-wolf-escape-adolf-hitler.html

He comes across as a bit of a muppet....

Biggins · 16-09-2012 11:33pm

Cosmo K wrote: »

Why is it so hard to believe, that Hitler died in Berlin?

Simply due to lack of evidence for such a infamous evil person.

We still have those that say Bin Laden is alive somewhere (I honestly don't know either way).

Cosmo K wrote: »

...And whats that nonsense that Hitler and Eva Braun had two daughters? He never even f$cked her, did they use a sperm donor?

Who says IF he made it out, he didn't get down and dirty with her?
After all, he still had one testicle.
Given his supposed improved medical condition after the war - IF true - anything is possible.

I'm NOT saying the above is true but all things are possible.

pipie · 16-09-2012 11:47pm

Cosmo K wrote: »

Very interesting discussion with one of the authors of the book:

http://www.ww2f.com/alternate-history/52303-grey-wolf-escape-adolf-hitler.html

He comes across as a bit of a muppet....

Like this ?

Hi thanks for your input. 55 pages, 500 footnotes, scientific proof that the man in the last pictures of Hitler with the Hitler Jugend on March 20th are not Hitler, not an antarctic base in sight, nor an UFO. 5 years of research 14 trips to Argentina.....and I've never done a conspiracy theory story in 30 years as a Television journalist.
I hope you read it .
All the best
Gerrard Williams (Co-Author Grey Wolf: The escape of Adolf Hitler)

Or this ?

I think "preposterous fiction" is a bit harsh for a forum, but as with everyone you are entitled to your opinion. It would be nice if you waited to read it on October the 4th. There is no forensic evidence either way for the escape or suicide. But the eyewitnesses, FBI and Cia files plus considerable original research and evidence provide for what we feel is a compelling case.

This is what our publisher's have to say about it.

Or this,

Low siwping like that is out of context and off topic, clearly you have a closed mind, I suggest in the interest of not letting this thread devolve into one foolish argument v another, that anyone interested in moving forward the topic "New book claims Hitler died in Argentina" does not reply to posters who are here only debase and derail the topic.

Cosmo K · 16-09-2012 11:56pm

pipie wrote: »

I suggest in the interest of not letting this thread devolve into one foolish argument v another, that anyone interested in moving forward the topic "New book claims Hitler died in Argentina" does not reply to posters who are here only debase and derail the topic.

Derail the topic?! Because I don't believe what they are saying, I'm no longer allowed to comment? Are you serious?

Zab · 17-09-2012 12:15am

I've flicked through some of the book and found it to be pretty unreadable.

For instance, in the chapter "The Bunker" it says in standard font:

Eva Braun’s double was simply perfect. Her name is unknown, but she had been trawled from the “stable” of young actresses that Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels, the self-appointed “patron of the German cinema,” maintained for his own pleasure. The physical similarity was amazing, and after film makeup and hairdressing experts had done their work it was very difficult to tell the two young women apart.

It gives no reference for any of this so I can only surmise that the authors made it up. This is supposed to be what they're using italics for (i.e. something that has to have happened for Hitler to have gone to Argentina so they've "deduced" it to have happened.)

They give no evidence that Weber and mystery woman were in the bunker, it simply just suits the story they're trying to tell.

I tried to find where they debunk the eyewitness accounts of the bodies but I didn't see it, so perhaps somebody could point me at it.

It seems Baumgart did actually say he flew Hitler to Denmark, which qualifies as evidence in my opinion. However, another account they're relying on is from Angelotty-Mackensen who said that Hitler made a 15 minute speech in Denmark to about 100 people while Angelotty-Mackensen was was "running a fever and slipping in and out of delirium". This is while Hitler is making a top secret escape which he has supposedly murdered two people to keep secret ... then gives a speech to 100 people. There doesn't appear to be accounts from any of the other 99 people supposedly present.

Again, I'm not buying any of this. If there are holes in the Hitler-died-in-the-bunker line then there are many more holes in the Hitler-escaped-to-Argentina line. As such the former seems more likely.

I've also noticed that a lot of the references are poor, for instance referencing and entire book rather than a paragraph or page, or the reference not adequately demonstrating the "facts" listed in the paragraph.

Biggins · 17-09-2012 12:53am

Zab wrote: »

I've flicked through some of the book and found it to be pretty unreadable.

For instance, in the chapter "The Bunker" it says in standard font:

It gives no reference for any of this so I can only surmise that the authors made it up. This is supposed to be what they're using italics for (i.e. something that has to have happened for Hitler to have gone to Argentina so they've "deduced" it to have happened.)

They give no evidence that Weber and mystery woman were in the bunker, it simply just suits the story they're trying to tell.

I tried to find where they debunk the eyewitness accounts of the bodies but I didn't see it, so perhaps somebody could point me at it.

It seems Baumgart did actually say he flew Hitler to Denmark, which qualifies as evidence in my opinion. However, another account they're relying on is from Angelotty-Mackensen who said that Hitler made a 15 minute speech in Denmark to about 100 people while Angelotty-Mackensen was was "running a fever and slipping in and out of delirium". This is while Hitler is making a top secret escape which he has supposedly murdered two people to keep secret ... then gives a speech to 100 people. There doesn't appear to be accounts from any of the other 99 people supposedly present.

Again, I'm not buying any of this. If there are holes in the Hitler-died-in-the-bunker line then there are many more holes in the Hitler-escaped-to-Argentina line. As such the former seems more likely.

I've also noticed that a lot of the references are poor, for instance referencing and entire book rather than a paragraph or page, or the reference not adequately demonstrating the "facts" listed in the paragraph.

I don't necessarily agree with what I'm about to say but for the sake of debate, I'll throw it out there.

The debunking of the bodies eventually burned can be easily found alone across the net and besides a number of documentaries made over many years, they have stuck to (where possible) matters what are connected to witness statements and documents which are on record.
Rather than regurgitate previous matters raised by others, they have opted to add to the material already out there.
They have it appears wish to stand on their own material.

Maybe that is why they don't mention that a maid admitted seeing a Hitler look-alike confined to the butler's pantry prior to Hitlers death!
Simple link example: http://tst.greyfalcon.us/mytha.html

Other minor details of identification no doubt had to be handled with care when dealing with a double. Exact body height was very important: Eva Braun's statement regarding Hitler's Munich-based double, that he "wears built-up shoes to overcome a height difference," possibly explains the 5 cm height discrepancy of the body autopsied.

http://just-another-inside-job.blogspot.ie/2007/04/world-was-lied-to-about-hitlers-death.html

While Angelotty-Mackensen was sick, it didn't effect his eyesight it appears along with others along the way who also gave similar statements over time and timeline events.

They have at times listed where material can be found (example: page 314, ref 202 where they list the exact sections within interrogation articles of a certain Nazi) exactly besides listing larger articles which further describe material in bulk which allowed context of a situation as well as exact detail.
At listing 55 pages of links, sources, dates and names alone, considering the hundreds of pages they put together, its would be a stretch of the imagination to think they could include everything to everyone's satisfaction, in every way possible.
The amount of source material provided over 50+ pages alone is substantial.

Funny enough its been found that the book is very readable (not just by myself) by others and they have said this elsewhere on reviews.
Pity your finding hard to read. This surprises me.
Mind you, if your flicking just through sections looking for points, you will miss out on others which connect the dots as such!

Cosmo K · 17-09-2012 6:54am

It seems like, they tried to promote their book in almost every WW2 online forum. But even the guys in WW2 forums wouldn't believe any of their claims.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=179706

http://www.ww2f.com/alternate-history/52303-grey-wolf-escape-adolf-hitler.html

666irishguy · 17-09-2012 2:36pm

Upon spending most of yesterday evening reading the book (quickly I might add) I have to say that this book takes very little facts and weak testimonies and goes a long way with them. It has a very boys own kind of spy story feel to it throughout. The book is very shaky in places and skips along with little detail on the most amazing details, like the description of how they quickly found the most incredible perfect double for Eva Braun. The whole book heavily relies on the fact that nobody would recall such an incredible tale, or anybody in a position to do so was conveniently 'disposed of' once they served their purpose. There is also no real proof presented on how certain details in opposition to historical views have been acquired and verified, such as the non-death of Fegelein and the key allowing factor of the story;that Bormann survived the war. Which has never been proven.

The escape is portrayed to have been well planned in advance, and therefore I find it inconceivable that if such an escape plan was in place, proven self preserving characters like Heinrich Himmler and Goering would not have tried to avail of it or had a similar plan drawn up before attempting to negotiate peace deals or run the risk of capture. Many of the key testimonies are also quite dubious, like the soldier who was wounded on the airfield and claims Hitler shook his hand. It's hard not to wonder if he wasn't hallucinating, making it up as a tall tale or telling his captors what he thought would get him a better deal or circumstances. Likewise on the latter with the pilot who claims to have flown him out of Berlin. Worse still is the question as to why none of the 300 other men there didn't recount the tale publicly, since their chances of survival were high considering they were sure the Western Allies would be the ones to get to them. What really made me dismiss the book however, was the actual method of getting to Spain. They flew an aircraft over Allied lines and across France. I find it nearly impossible to believe that given the total destruction of the Luftwaffe and the conspicuous absence of their activity by that stage, anything as odd as a single large and rare type of transport plane as was used, getting up in the air over German held territory and not identifiable as friendly, would not have been picked up on radar and aroused suspicion as to it's mission, since it seems plausible that the Allies might have assumed the Germans might have a sting in the tail such as letting rip with the nerve gas right at the end. This whole flight succeeding is once again quickly skimmed over and put down to the skill and luck of the pilot.

The book continues in more or less the same manner throughout. They get to Spain which would no doubt have been riddled with Allied spies and even German agents who would no doubt jump at the chance to salvage something from the war and contact the British or Americans about the operation. They reach South America and again the proof they were there is thin on the ground, (this might be expected it was Hitler) but again shaky testimonies like that from a former Croatian dictator's carpenter, who would probably be more than happy to tell a tall tale to a TV crew in exchange for a bit of cash, do little to convince. Hitler's later years are almost farcical and beyond belief in some accounts. He is observed wailing at the end of his bed with photo's of the war's aftermath scattered around him (including burned Jewish children). There is mention that he tries to take up painting again, but can't hold a brush due to parkinson's disease. The fact it is medical opinion that he would not have lived much longer than a few years after the war considering this affliction is lost on the author. Overall I think this book is an entertaining read, but it is too reliant on dead ends, incredible personal loyalty and grave silence. There's just too much sheer good luck and everything going off without a hitch to make it believable.

As I have said in earlier posts, given the apparent nature of Hitler, I find it hard to believe he would have quietly died in a small house in the Argentine countryside without leaving behind some posthumous testimony or manifesto to be released after his death. Likewise that no death bed confessions ever emerged regarding the location of proof of this operation. It's just a proven fact that people cannot keep secrets. The final nail in the coffin for me is that I doubt that the vast Soviet intelligence machine would not have gone to the most extreme lengths available to ensure Hitler was dead and gather intelligence on any group that might have given the slightest hint otherwise.