Purchasing of sex will be criminalised (it appears) in the near future in Ireland

_Beau_

SupaNova wrote: »

You will have to define what you mean by sex object first.

A person viewed or treated as a means of obtaining sexual gratification

Prostitutes have options. Taking working in McDonalds vs selling sex, it's obvious which gives them more economic power.

If prostitution is a free choice, why is it that it is always the women and girls who have the fewest alternatives who are the ones who end up in prostitution?

So you think prostitutes are inferior?

They're in an inferior position to their clients, socially and economically.

What do you mean by dehumanised? You think people who sell sex are not human?

Dehumanised = objectified.

So not the act of selling sex but people's view of them as inferior?

(see above)

I sell myself as a commodity also, just in a different industry. Pointless term.

You're not the commodity, your labour is.

Not true. Prostitutes have a choice of what services they offer as well as a choice to be a prostitute in the first place.

Can you prove that to be more than just your opinion?

No where has it been proving that having sex with strangers damages people.

In the exchange, one is having sex, the other is not. Disassociation is necessary and that compounds the psychological damage of engaging in sexual acts with men that a prostitute neither likes nor wants to sleep with. She slips into a dissociative state in order to cope.



"PTSD [Post Traumatic Stress Disorder] is characterized by anxiety, depression, insomnia, irritability, flashbacks, emotional numbing, and hyperalertness. Symptoms are more severe and long lasting when the stressor is of human design. PTSD is normative among prostituted women. Farley et al. (2003) found a PTSD prevalence rate of 68% among those in prostitution in nine countries. This rate was comparable to the rates of PTSD among battered women seeking shelter, rape survivors, and survivors of state-sponsored torture....

Dissociation occurs during extreme stress among prisoners of war who are tortured, among children who are sexually assaulted, and among women who are battered, raped, or prostituted. Dissociation, depression, and other mood disorders are common among prostituted women in street, escort, and strip club prostitution. Dissociation in prostitution results from both childhood sexual violence and sexual violence in adult prostitution. At the same time, dissociation is a job requirement for surviving prostitution."

Source: Melissa Farley, PhD, Founding Director of the Prostitution Research and Education, "Bad for the Body, Bad for the Heart" in the Oct. 2004 Violence Against Women.

Studies do show some of this to be true for a large % of prostitutes. They don't show selling sex as the cause.

(see above - disassociation)

Monty Burnz

nokia69 wrote: »

beau

have a read of this thread from another site

it makes for interesting reading

http://www.saafe.info/main/index.php?topic=3830.msg34859#msg34859

maybe you should register over there and talk to some women who know a little more about the subject than you

I think Beau's mind was made up before he/she did any research into this, and then just found the research that backs up his/her preconceived notions. The ossified thinking in evidence in his/her posts is strong evidence for this. So I don't think first hand testimony will make any more difference than the demolition of his/her arguments in this thread.

Still, I'm rather surprised home some people get into the sex industry...

I found a tenant of mine doing it when I was trying to sell a house. She had forgotten to tidy away her collapsible dungeon and the estate agent came round to do a block viewing!

I though she was an architect and had a chat with her. She was, and is, and worked from home, (my flat), twice a week and did some AW work on the side.

Though no more of it until I became single and, having a high sex drive and no outlet, thought - give it a go! No pics, basic profile and a very high rate in AW, I had 3 bookings in the first week as the newbie.

After dabbling a bit for 3 months I had some pics done and re-vamped the profile and never looked back - 2.5 years. Wish I had started younger.

_Beau_

Dr Galen wrote: »

I do find it a bit strange (maybe thats the wrong word but it's the best I've got right now) that you seem to fixed on female prostitutes _Beau_. There are many male sex workers around too, and often, their circumstances and background can be just as bad, if not worse, that many females. You consistently use the female term though, is that just because it's prostitution within that gender group that you are familiar with etc?

My apologies. To keep it simple (and taking into account the fact that there are more female sex workers than males in every country except Thailand) I'm using the term "she".

By the way, the experiences of male prostitutes is similar to that of females, according to the studies that I cited, the few that included men (considering the disparity between the genders internationally in the sex trade) so when I use the term "she" you can take that to mean "he" also.

I also find it strange that you fail to recognise the issue of consent.

Like I said earlier (to another poster) if prostitution was a free choice, why is it that it is mainly poor and disadvantaged girls and women (men and boys) who end up being prostitutes?

_Beau_

rodento wrote: »

You are been evasive, states change laws all the time, the question was aimed at you

jam_mac_jam posed no question.

Monty Burnz

_Beau_ wrote: »

Like I said earlier (to another poster) if prostitution was a free choice, why is it that it is mainly poor and disadvantaged girls and women (men and boys) who end up being prostitutes?

Without spending more than 3 seconds thinking about it, I suggest that it may have something to do with the fact that wealthy and advantaged women with education and skills can earn 6 figure salaries in more socially acceptable industries. It gives the poor and the disadvantaged the chance to bypass their disadvantages and get into the earning big-leagues.

I'm astonished that this isn't blindingly obvious to you.

_Beau_

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Pure opinion. I disagree.

The Constitution declares what your 'personal freedoms' are and it does not state that using a prostitute is a right nor a freedom that is bestowed upon you by the State.

Therefore, my view is not simply an opinion - it is a fact.

Yes you are, unless there is a compelling societal reason for the government to get in the way.

The Government 'gets in the way' of all profitable businesses in the form of regulation and taxation. You do not decide what you buy and sell - the State does.

Not at all, I'm all for it. Legalisation is almost certainly the best way if you are genuinely interested in protecting prostitutes

Can you prove that opinion?

rather than engaging in a moral crusade that is doomed to fail (as it has failed every time it's been tried).

Can you prove that opinion?

This legislation is new and it is proving successful in the EU member states that have already adopted it - Sweden, Norway and Iceland.

Who are you to judge whether their trauma exceeds that of battlefield soldiers, police, fire fighters, paramedics?

I did not decide anything; I cited a study and that was one of their findings.

This is pure opinion on your part again. And your estimate of the value of the service they provide is again pure opinion - what price can you put on relieving the sexual frustration of lonely people?

What price can you put on the psychological/emotional/physical health of a prostitute?

How does relieving sexual frustration (that does not in itself necessitate the services of a prostitute) justify causing harm to those who relieve it? That's unethical.

So in response to the question, all you have to offer is ill-supported opinion. Bravo.

Opinions don't require evidence; they are a subjective belief.

You are entitled to yours (favouring the client) and I'm entitled to mine (favouring the prostitute).

_Beau_

ihacs wrote: »

What about the misandrists?

What about them?

Also, if you are saying you think saying women have more interest on average in interior design is a sexist generalisation and evidence of sexism and misogyny, I'm going to differ from you and think you have a tendency to rush to use the words "sexist"/"sexism" and "misogyny"/"misogynist", which might be better to be conquered if you want to be a good academic as well as suggesting you may need to become a more tolerant person.

Tolerating abuse isn't an example of tolerance - it's indifference.

_Beau_

Monty Burnz wrote: »

You are characterising anyone who disagrees with you as misogynist?

You're basing that conclusion on the fact that I called one person a misogynist.

I'm sorry, but, it just doesn't stick.

_Beau_

rodento wrote: »

Beau have you ever thought that pushing this further underground just makes the situation worse for those working in the industry. You have never explained how the change in law will protect those involved, it in my book will just make it worse as the fear of been caught could lead to more violence to people caught up in the industry

Clients will fear being caught; prostitutes are not breaking the law.

_Beau_

nokia69 wrote: »

beau

have a read of this thread from another site

it makes for interesting reading

http://www.saafe.info/main/index.php?topic=3830.msg34859#msg34859

maybe you should register over there and talk to some women who know a little more about the subject than you

You created an alias to say that because you were too afraid to say it using your usual account.

That genuinely made me laugh.

Perhaps you should join the lovely ladies over there; they probably won't intimidate you as much as I do.

_Beau_

pablomakaveli wrote: »

It acts as a deterent to client but does it stop women from becoming prostitutes. Whats to stop them operating more discreetly so to keep under the radar or to go on operate in another country?

The prostitutes will still be there regardless of legislation.

Reduce demand => reduces supply

I presume here he is referring to prostitutes who work on the street since he refers to pimps. These women usually are drug users and would be in need of protection.

But what about prostitutes who aren't drug users, who don't have a pimp and operate out of houses and hotels. There are also high-class prostitutes who wouldnt fit the bill of the drug using prostitute.

Given that these women wouldnt be in need of help why should they be stopped from charging for sex too?

That's your opinion. If you'd like me to comment on it, please provide evidence to support it.

_Beau_

pablomakaveli wrote: »

They could tell them for a start.

The Government to tell who what? Be clearer. I don't know what you're suggesting.

And other users on this thread called some of those reports into question.

You are perfectly entitled to trust the word of posters over a list of professionals who have a PhD in psychology. I'll go with the latter.

_Beau_

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Without spending more than 3 seconds thinking about it, I suggest that it may have something to do with the fact that wealthy and advantaged women with education and skills can earn 6 figure salaries in more socially acceptable industries. It gives the poor and the disadvantaged the chance to bypass their disadvantages and get into the earning big-leagues.

I'm astonished that this isn't blindingly obvious to you.

My argument belies claims that prostitutes 'weigh up the pros and cons' and 'freely choose' prostitution by highlighting that their choices are limited.

K-9

_Beau_ wrote: »

I believe it is the EU that is putting pressure on our Government to change its laws. It's not the RCC.

Do you have a source for this belief?

zuroph

If I was a girl, I'd totally consider it.

_Beau_

K-9 wrote: »

Do you have a source for this belief?

[ ] Seanad Éireann

...

notes evidence from Sweden and Norway which shows that criminal sanctions for the purchase of sex are a proven deterrent to prostitution and consequently to trafficking (McLeod et al. 2008) (Claude 2010);

Further notes that International Conventions repeatedly call for efficient measures to deter demand for prostitution, which is recognised as an efficient approach to reduce sex trafficking (Article 6, Council of Europe’s Convention on Action against Trafficking in Human Beings 2005; Article 9(5), UN Protocol to Prevent, Suppress and Punish the Trafficking in Persons, especially Women and Children 2000)

House of Oireachtas

Council of Europe Convention on Action Against Trafficking of Human Beings (2005)

Criminal Law (Human Trafficking) Act 2008

Monty Burnz

Somebody seems to be ignoring this website where actual women involved in the sex industry tell their stories. I wonder why?

I've been doing it for 10 years now! My marriage broke down very suddenly. He took all our money from the joint bank account, the car, all his stuff and stopped paying the mortgage. After he left I also discovered he was having an affair with my then best friend. The house got repossessed and I needed money quickly. I was a civil servant at the time and earning rubbish money. I watched a documentary on telly about a girl who was a university lecturer and was escorting in the evenings. I did some digging and began working for a local agency. I then advertised on a site called UK Escorts where the guy who runs Northern Angels found me and asked me to join his site. Got my own website a few years later. Oh, and I gave my job up a civil servant about a year after I started escorting. I paid all the debts my ex had accrued very quickly and haven't looked back! He did me a favour in a round about way. I love my life!

Gosh! I started around 10 years ago now!

Alot of these stories start with .....I split from my fella....... and mine is no different!

I worked in IT and was bored ****less, I split from my fella and literally walked out and left him everything and looked around and had not much to call my own.

I took out a loan to buy stuff to furnish a new flat and was struggling to make repayments, a very wonderful wonderful friend of mine loaned me 10k to consolidate all my various outgoings.

I had an email from a guy on a dating site asking if I was interested in purchasing his services, I said no but might be interested in working myself! Next thing I know we meet up and he agrees to be my pimp! He was good in getting me started and was able to pay off my friends loan very quickly for which I am eternally grateful!

Now I am in and out the business and as Amber also says I adore my life!

Of course, all stories aren't as positive as that, but I don't feel the need to manipulate the truth or ignore facts to make my argument.

_Beau_

What percentage of the world's prostitute population are on that site? I'll be far too generous in my example, but, the message ought to be clear.

Do you understand that if 100 people had cancer and 80% of them suffered symptoms of depression following their diagnosis, while 20% chatted happily online about their experiences, that the happy chatters wouldn't belie the claims made by the majority?

_Beau_

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I don't feel the need to acknowledge the truth or provide facts to make my argument.

Fixed.

[MOD]Don't do FYP. It's not big, or clever, or funny. It just annoys people.[/MOD]

_Beau_

You're manipulating facts by highlighting anecdotal examples to support your opinion [which has yet to be substantiated by actual academic studies].

I could highlight anecdotal evidence too.

Here:

I started in Oct 2008. I split from a very abusive boyfriend in Spring 2008 and he left me homeless (house was in his name) . I wanted to go to college when we were together but he got his sister to enrol on the same course as me and taunt me until I gave up and left the course . I was soooo happy to be FREEEE to study but also very short of money and needed things for my new house. After I had cut a Mars bar into 12 pieces to last for 3 days food I knew I had to do something. I already had a minimum wage job but I'd need to work v.long hours to even scrape by and I couldn't as I wanted to study too

It proves nothing.

Dr Galen

In fairness _Beau_ the studies you provided links to are hardly cast iron. I have had a cursory look through them, and it's been a while since I critiqued a sociological piece, but I think one could call bias on quite a few of them. Would you deny that there is a feminist or religious agenda behind a lot of anti-prostitution work?

FWIW I'd share you're concerns on the turnoffthebluelight website, as I don't know who is behind that either, so of course that could be biased as well.

I would welcome anything that could protect sex workers across the board, I just don't buy the rhetoric that comes from vested interests ( on both sides). I'd like to hear more directly from the workers themselves. This is unlikely to happen in a verifiable way though, as societal stigma attached to the work, would prevent many from coming forward.

Monty Burnz

_Beau_ wrote: »

You're manipulating facts by highlighting anecdotal examples to support your opinion [which has yet to be substantiated by actual academic studies].

I could highlight anecdotal evidence too.

Here:



It proves nothing.

Lol - the anecdotal evidence you quoted has nothing to do with prostitution at all!

Monty Burnz

_Beau_ wrote: »

What percentage of the world's prostitute population are on that site? I'll be far too generous in my example, but, the message ought to be clear.

Do you understand that if 100 people had cancer and 80% of them suffered symptoms of depression following their diagnosis, while 20% chatted happily online about their experiences, that the happy chatters wouldn't belie the claims made by the majority?

I'm sorry, but your arguments are extremely weak and you've been totally taken to the cleaners in this discussion as you refuse to accept the masses of contrary evidence and counter-arguments that demonstrate that your ideologically-driven ideas about prostitution are extremely simplistic.

_Beau_

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Lol - the anecdotal evidence you quoted has nothing to do with prostitution at all!

Her being a victim of IPV and not having enough money to 'even scrape by' had nothing to do with her going into escorting?

Her experiences mirror those of a large percentage of prostitutes in the studies that I cited.

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'm sorry, but your arguments are extremely weak and you've been totally taken to the cleaners in this discussion as you refuse to accept the masses of contrary evidence and counter-arguments that demonstrate that your ideologically-driven ideas about prostitution are extremely simplistic.

You do make extraordinary accusations considering the fact that I have repeatedly asked you to support your opinions and you are either unable or unwilling to do so.

I'm reporting you for attacking my character for a third time.

I'm not continuing a conversation with you. Good day.

_Beau_

Argumentum ad hominem is not an argument.

Monty Burnz

_Beau_ wrote: »

Her being a victim of IPV and not having enough money to 'even scrape by' had nothing to do with her going into escorting?

Her experiences mirror those of a large percentage of prostitutes in the studies that I cited.

So you concede that your 'anecdotal evidence' has nothing to do with her experience of actual prostitution? Why thank you.

_Beau_ wrote: »

You do make extraordinary accusations considering the fact that I have repeated asked you to support your opinions and you are either unable or unwilling to do so.

I'm reporting you for attacking my character for a third time.

I'm not continuing a conversation with you. Good day.

My loss, I'm sure. I practically never do this, but I'm declaring victory in this debate as you have refused to consider or even acknowledge any information or evidence that runs contrary to your idée fixe that prostitution is wrong in every circumstance and can successfully be banned to the benefit of all. This refusal to countenance conflicting evidence calls to mind an almost religious adherence to a set of beliefs, which leads me to suspect that ideology or religion is at its root.

_Beau_

You're doing it again.

I've reported you again.

Monty Burnz

_Beau_ wrote: »

You're doing it again.

I've reported you again.

Good luck with that. It is fascinating however that you haven't denied that your arguments are religiously or ideologically motivated. You might find you have a better chance of persuading people if you engage with their arguments and accept that the issue is rather more complex than your posts seem to acknowledge, but this would entail you shifting from your 'prostitution is always wrong' position and that seems rather unlikely.

Good day.

_Beau_

Just so that you realise how inaccurate your accusations are - I'm a humanist and a pragmatist.

Good day.

Alopex

_Beau_ wrote: »

You do make extraordinary accusations considering the fact that I have repeatedly asked you to support your opinions and you are either unable or unwilling to do so.

I'm reporting you for attacking my character for a third time.

I'm not continuing a conversation with you. Good day.

You're acting like you suppoort your claims with evidence. Your studies are from low ranked journals with clear bias. And I suspect you are only reading the titles.