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Wibbs

Well I was feeding raw meat and bones from about 16 weeks on. Small amounts at first. Dogs in the wild would be chewing on bones pretty early, though getting regurgitated food from parents at the same time.

DogsFirst

Wibbs wrote: »

andreac wrote: »

You should feed your meat raw, esp the chicken as its great for them, the bones are really good too. Raw diet is brilliant and if i could afford it for my 2 (rotties) its what i would be feeding them.

If you are feeding the dry food there really isnt a need to feed all that meat as well, its really one or the other, or just a little bit of meat here and there but i wouldnt be feeding all that meat and nuts.

+1 on both counts.

I disagree. If you're going to feed dry food you'll have to accept that the vitamin content if your dogs food will be low. Vitamins are included at "them minimum required for growth" by aafco standards (make rules for dog food). As you can't have too much protein, any fresh ingredients you include will only benefit your dog. Unless all you add is (fresh) bones. Dry food is already so high in calcium from the ash they include that this may cause issues down the line.

Like your kids bottom line is feed fresh as much as possible.

andreac

DogsFirst wrote: »

I disagree. If you're going to feed dry food you'll have to accept that the vitamin content if your dogs food will be low. Vitamins are included at "them minimum required for growth" by aafco standards (make rules for dog food). As you can't have too much protein, any fresh ingredients you include will only benefit your dog. Unless all you add is (fresh) bones. Dry food is already so high in calcium from the ash they include that this may cause issues down the line.

Like your kids bottom line is feed fresh as much as possible.

Sorry but i disagree, you can def have too much protein and this causes problems with some dogs, and their skin, mine being one of them. Woke up to find my rottie has a bloody hot spot on his face near his ear and its from that awful royal canin :mad: I had won a bag the other day and was waiting for my normal food to arrive and had to feed it and hes got a hot spot now from it!!
I do agree its good to feed a bit a bit of both, but feeding lots of each is unnecessary really. If you are going to feed lots of raw meat etc then there is really no need to feed the dry food as well.

DogsFirst

andreac wrote: »

Sorry but i disagree, you can def have too much protein and this causes problems with some dogs, and their skin, mine being one of them. Woke up to find my rottie has a bloody hot spot on his face near his ear and its from that awful royal canin :mad: I had won a bag the other day and was waiting for my normal food to arrive and had to feed it and hes got a hot spot now from it!!
I do agree its good to feed a bit a bit of both, but feeding lots of each is unnecessary really. If you are going to feed lots of raw meat etc then there is really no need to feed the dry food as well.

Real common one that one. A lot of people are under the impression that a dog, a carnivore, can have too much (animal) protein in their diet. That a very particular level of protein is required for their dog.

In short, I have one question, how much protein did you have yesterday? Or did you feed to your kids? We don't know but for some reason we are transfixed with these things in dogs. In fact it has taken a lot of marketing over the course of 30 years to get us in this tizzy.

The reason you can't have too much protein is because it is not stored by the body. It is harmlessly deaminated by the liver and excreted by the kidneys, even under megadoses. It is not stored like some vitamins, fat and carbohydrate. That is why all diets advise you to step up your protein intake and cut the others. It is actually difficult to find a documented example of "too much protein" causing anything but some strange diseases in body builders that go to some silly extremes.

Then you must consider the extra affinity a dog has for meat. Carniovres need protein and fat, and not carbohydrates (they can actually make their own, a process called glycogenesis, clever carnivores). They have proven that dogs that have been nephrectomised (had their kidneys artifically reduced to 25% of their normal processing function) do perfectly fine on high protein diets. Because it's what carnivores do. Only when end stage chronic kidey failure kicks in (90% reduction in kidney ability) that protein levels can become an issue.

It is not the quantity of protein, but the quality. Which protein are you talking about? Some cooked proteins causes skin reactions as it does in humans (this is how food intolerance was discovered in the 1920's, a guy found he was llergic to cooked fish and not raw). Gluten and casein proteins cause skin reactions (as in humans). A dog on the same food for 18mths will develop a sensitivity to a protein (see ref below). This is all possible. But a particular quantity absolutely does not. At least has never been documented in my experience, and it is my field.

Have a read of the following references in Google Scholar.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1476305
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18656844
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/121/11_Suppl/S107.full.pdf

Or check out my article I use to help breeders and vets at dogsfirst.ie. Apologies for the site I conduct seminars on canine nutrition for vets and it is simply used it to get the references up to the public. All the references you'll need on the point are there and linkable to save you wandering. Theres also a handy little booklet for you to have a look at. New site coming soon which is completely dedicated to dogs, nutrition and training, and free to access.

Have a read and please get back to me if there are any inconsistencies that we can discuss. Hope it helps!

cora2

Having read all the posts, I found them very interesting. I use Whites dog food & have had great results. I am friends with them on facebook & noticed this link they have on their page.

I thought some of you might be interested in in it.

http://www.whites-premium.ie/Complete-Dry-Dog-Food-Explained_AZXFH.aspx

Wibbs

DogsFirst wrote: »

Real common one that one. A lot of people are under the impression that a dog, a carnivore, can have too much (animal) protein in their diet. That a very particular level of protein is required for their dog.

TBH DF this is something that has always puzzled me too and you hear it trotted out everywhere. I got similar dire warnings about watch the protein levels when I recently told my vet I was feeding raw and I was thinking eh wut?. Like you say wild canids are almost exclusively protein and fat (and bone)consumers. So long as it runs, flaps or swims and they can catch it, it's all good(though will eat small amounts of veggie matter). They most certainly don't eat the large quantities of grains or carbs we're being advised is good for our dogs.

Cora2 wrote:

I am friends with them on facebook & noticed this link they have on their page.

I thought some of you might be interested in in it.

OK but to be fair they are trying to sell dry dog food, so a complete raw food diet might be the best thing ever is hardly likely to be praised. They mention that wet foods contain gluten as a binding agent, yet neglect to mention what goes into their dry food, only listing it as "other ingredients". They also mention that wet food may contain spines and brains yet make no real mention of their protein sources. Though do say "Not much regular meat can be included in dry complete dog food formulations because it is too high in moisture". So what source is it?

OK now lets look at their ingredients on one feed for adult working dogs;

http://www.whites-premium.ie/vitality-dog-food-analysis

Wheat
Why is the first ingredient wheat? Never realised dogs ploughed sowed and reaped. If it's a gluten allergy you're looking to build wheat's a doosie.

Oats
Oats. Not much better depending on source and I doubt they're using highest quality organic here.

Wheatfeed
Hmm otherwise known as millers offal. Basically what's left when you extract the rest of the wheatgerm. The floor scrapings basically.

Flaked maize
Cooked corn, yet another grain/carb(and dirt cheap). No wonder we need doggie toothbrushes.

Poultry fat
OK first animal product(well by product of human food industry) but its coming a fair bit down the list.

White rice
May as well add sugar.

Barley
And yet another grain.

Sugar beet pulp
A fibre. There's been some debate over this ingredient but it's probably fine.

Fish meal
This is what's left after the high end fish is used in the human food industry. Bones and skulls and the crap at the bottom of the nets ground up. Can contain high level of contaminants depending on source.

Brewers yeast
Good source of b vits IIRC, but also a possible source of allergy.

Yucca extract
Minerals
Vitamins
Omega 3
Grand.

Another thing that puzzles on that page. In the "Typical Analysis" why don't they list carbs as their ingredients list has a lot of them.

And remember Whites is a quality dry dog food. When you read the crap that makes up the supermarket or generic brands...

While I'm defo no Raw foodist nutjob, I do wonder what the f is going on

Cherry Blossom

1. Too much protein can cause kidney damage in some dogs.

2. If you want to dissect just one of Whites range of dog foods, I think this one is more suitable for the discussion as I doubt many people on here feed 'working dog' foods which are designed to be cheap as chips no matter what the brand is.

http://www.whites-premium.ie/chicken-dog-food-analysis

3. The link to dogsfirst doesn't work, which is just as well because spamming your own site on boards comes with an instant ban - it's part of the T&C you signed up to.

Wibbs

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

1. Too much protein can cause kidney damage in some dogs.

Some dogs. Dogsfirst to be fair was also talking about the quality of said protein and whether it's raw or cooked. Plus if you read one of his/her links http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1476305 you would see that experimentally even dogs with significantly reduced renal function were not affected by the protein levels in the diet(levels of phosphorus had an effect). The second study/link states this again Numerous studies have confirmed that protein does not adversely affect the kidneys. However, phosphorus- and protein-restricted diets are clinically beneficial in dogs with existing chronic kidney failure. Protein restriction for healthy older dogs is not only unnecessary, it can be detrimental. Protein requirements actually increase by about 50% in older dogs, while their energy requirements tend to decrease. When insufficient protein is provided, it can aggravate the age-associated loss of lean body mass and may contribute to earlier mortality. Older dogs should receive at least 25% of their calories from protein, typically provided by diets containing at least 7 g protein/100 Kcal ME.Emphasis mine on existing kidney pathology.

2. If you want to dissect just one of Whites range of dog foods, I think this one is more suitable for the discussion as I doubt many people on here feed 'working dog' foods which are designed to be cheap as chips no matter what the brand is.

http://www.whites-premium.ie/chicken-dog-food-analysis

True enough so OK.

Ingredients
Chicken (26%)
Certainly much better and higher up the line. But from what source and what's defined as "chicken" and is this wet or dry weight. If the former the percentage in the final dry food will be significantly smaller.

Rice (26%)
A quarter is nigh on pure carbohydrate.

Barley
Another grain/carb. What percentage?

Poultry fat
Again what's the source? The renderings of the poultry industry. And why mention poultry/chicken twice?

Sugar beet pulp

Fish meal

Again from what source

Brewers yeast
Yucca extract
Minerals
Vitamins
Omega 3

So yes it's much better, but still no breakdown of the overall percentage of carbs in the final dry weight of the food.

andreac wrote:

Sorry but i disagree, you can def have too much protein and this causes problems with some dogs, and their skin, mine being one of them. Woke up to find my rottie has a bloody hot spot on his face near his ear and its from that awful royal canin

Protein is blamed for this kinda thing, but the problem is how do we know it was the protein and not some other ingredient? We kinda don't. Now it may well be the protein AC or the wrong type, but given there's more by wieght of other ingredients why not look at one of them?

Cherry Blossom

Wibbs wrote: »

Ingredients
Chicken (26%)
Certainly much better and higher up the line. But from what source and what's defined as "chicken" and is this wet or dry weight. If the former the percentage in the final dry food will be significantly smaller.

Just in answer to this question (At least I think it's a question) their site states that any meat used is human grade.

DogsFirst

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

1. Too much protein can cause kidney damage in some dogs.

2. If you want to dissect just one of Whites range of dog foods, I think this one is more suitable for the discussion as I doubt many people on here feed 'working dog' foods which are designed to be cheap as chips no matter what the brand is.

http://www.whites-premium.ie/chicken-dog-food-analysis

3. The link to dogsfirst doesn't work, which is just as well because spamming your own site on boards comes with an instant ban - it's part of the T&C you signed up to.

Hi aj,

Apologies for link not working, should be ok now.

Also apologies for pushing my own website, really just meant to check out some of the articles but i don't think that's allowed, won't happen again.

Re excess protein, have a read of the links I recommend, I really feel it clears up a lot of the argument, and if you have some info for me re dogs needing a particular amount of protein I really would love to read it.


Cheers aj

Wibbs

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Just in answer to this question (At least I think it's a question) their site states that any meat used is human grade.

Yep AJ it was a question and that covers the source(and kudos for that), but not the dry versus wet weight/content.

Don't get me wrong AJ, like I said already White's is a very good quality dry food. Streets ahead of the average brands. That said reading their site they(IMHO) push the boat out on the hype. Lots of pics of fresh veg and the like.

Also statements like this; "Wheat and Flaked Maize: We include wheat and flaked maize in our Vitality Muesli to increase the complex carbohydrate levels in the food to help increase stamina, fight fatigue and boost energy and performance levels in the working and active dog."

since when is wheat and corn a complex carb? Rice another ingredient they mention is most certainly not. Ask any human nutritionist.

Oh and they berate other manufacturers thusly; Many pet foods, especially the economy brands, use corn, gluten, soy, and bone meal as a major source of protein, but these are inferior sources of protein for your pet.

Eh... maize is corn folks. Wheat is chock full of gluten. I have to know this stuff as I and half my family are coeliacs. Nice switcheroo there.

Then more foods containing gluten(though at lower amounts), oats.

Included in our Vitality Muesli as they are high in protein and can be easily and quickly digested, and are rich in silicon to help keep the working and active dogs bones strong. Oats are a complex carbohydrate that the working and active dogs body uses to maintain stamina, fight fatigue and boost energy and performance levels.

Now oats are a complex carb(if quality oats, not rendered) but why add such grains for " stamina,energy and performance"? For a carnivore? You want "stamina,energy and performance", a Carpathian wolf, an animal that is genetically 99.3% the same as the most pampered toy dog, has been tracked covering 60 miles in the course of a day and unless the lad had broken the fairy tale barrier and passed by the three bears house and helped himself to their porridge it wasn't due to grain based carbs. There's a reason why there exists the saying "as fit as a butchers dog".

Carnivores don't require carbs the way an(incredible*) omnivore like a human or at least don't get them from the same sources. AFAIR(and biologists can correct me here) canids like other carnivores break down proteins and fats for their carb/energy needs. Canids unlike us, don't even possess salivary amylase to start the breakdown process of (petfood)carbs in the digestive system. And as I noted before in their breakdowns they don't come out with the ratio/percentage of carbs versus proteins in the final product. For all the protestations that the best don't use "filler" IMHO any grains are fillers and cheap as chips ones at that.

Like I also said I'm not some Raw Macrobiotic, with the moon waxing as you cut the meat to honour the soul of the prey is the WAYYY! hippy. There is always a middle path, but IMHO we're being fed some BS about the diets of our furry buddies and they're being fed worse. Some of the dog foods out there(and don't forget our cat buds) have as listed ingredients "artificial colours". I mean WTF. No really. Dogs and cats can't read and their colour vision is limited compared to ours, so that crap is for us, not them, so why the hell are they adding same? And then slapping the words "healthy" or "recommended by vets" on such shíte?










*maybe why human nutrition is such a scientific minefield and so hard to pin down the "best" diet. We can survive, even thrive on a host of different diets. From a traditional Inuit eating an almost exclusive animal based diet(that would make a conservative coronary consultant have a fit, yet they don't get heart disease too often), to a vegan(that some would say isn't getting enough of some nutrients, yet they can be very healthy) and both doing pretty welll. It's the rest of us chowing down on chinner dinners that are the issue . Other than the rat, we're bloody cool in that respect and it's one big reason we're all over this planet.

DogsFirst

chris139ryan wrote: »

can you give bones from the butchers to pups or is there a recommended age before you start feeding them bones. my bull terrier is 12 weeks old so im just asking for him.

Hi Chris,
Dogs and wolves in the wild eat regurgitated bone mulch from 3wks old, I'd mince them at that stage, chicken necks at 6wks but keep an eye, like kids with lego. Smash with mallet if necessary. Lamb necks and ribs by 9 wks. Always raw. As meaty as possible. No weight bearing bones (break teeth). Any problems pm me, I can send or direct you to all the info you need in that respect.

Shanao

I think the problem in regards protein is not the excess of it but rather the actual protein source that is used. My dog for example cannot digest pork proteins and he breaks out in a rash if he eats any pork. Unfortunately, pork, beef and chicken proteins are some of the more difficult for some dogs to break down and they end up basically running rife in the system. Maybe this is down to the way dogs have been bred, making them more intollerant to certain things.

I'm sick of pet food companies pushing their foods with no corn etc when, like Wibbs said, Maize is bloody corn. And undigestible enough by our standards so definitely by dog standards. Really, if it wasn't for the convenience and the fact that I dont think I could support my lot on a raw diet, I wouldn't be feeding dried stuff. The stuff i use at least has no preservatives or chemicals, but when I see the things listed in stuff like Bakers and even Royal Canin I really cant help but wonder. And has anyone else noticed just how many new brands of food are popping up out of the blue all over the place?

cora2

My I have opened a can of worms!!!

At Dogsfirst & Wibbs, take a look at this website http://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/article.cfm?aid=459#answer_3

At Wibbs, why was it you chose the cheapest food of Whites to berate? Is it because its the only one you can berate. As was mentioned in earlier post why not disect the chicken or the lamb?

Once you read the above information on the link above you will see as they mention chicken/lamb as their main ingredient it must be a good quality protein source.

I didnt put the original link up to be biased to any food but it was rather interesting how Dogsfirst & Wibbs like to drum their own opinions down everyone elses throat, like they know best.

I put the link up as an alternitive for someone who mentioned feeding raw food costs them up to 20 a week. I know I couldnt afford that, so I am happy that I found an affordable food, that helps my lab & shepherd who have various skin problems & now no longer have.


Why dont you get your questions answered by calling Whites? I know the woman is excellent for advice & have seen on other posts where other boards members think so to.

DogsFirst

cora2 wrote: »

My I have opened a can of worms!!!

At Dogsfirst & Wibbs, take a look at this website http://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/article.cfm?aid=459#answer_3

At Wibbs, why was it you chose the cheapest food of Whites to berate? Is it because its the only one you can berate. As was mentioned in earlier post why not disect the chicken or the lamb?

Once you read the above information on the link above you will see as they mention chicken/lamb as their main ingredient it must be a good quality protein source.

I didnt put the original link up to be biased to any food but it was rather interesting how Dogsfirst & Wibbs like to drum their own opinions down everyone elses throat, like they know best.

I put the link up as an alternitive for someone who mentioned feeding raw food costs them up to 20 a week. I know I couldnt afford that, so I am happy that I found an affordable food, that helps my lab & shepherd who have various skin problems & now no longer have.


Why dont you get your questions answered by calling Whites? I know the woman is excellent for advice & have seen on other posts where other boards members think so to.

Sorry, I don't feel I've been pushing my opinions on you. I left references to support the very likely fact that its not a particular amount of protein, but the type.

I have no interest in getting into individual brands, my stance is fresh food is better than processed. Which processed food is irrelevant.

And if I wanted questions on fast food answered i wouldn't call mcdonalds. I've a doctorate in the area and i conduct seminars on canine nutrition recognised by the vet council of Ireland. But beyond all that, we have all got to get away from loaded sources, such as dry food manufacturers, as a basis for an argument.

You have to admit, fresh is best?!

Let's all have a vote. How do you do that here?!

cora2

@ Wibbs

With regards to fishmeal, it is nutrient rich & high in protein because it has been rendered to remove the moisture, so it is more nutritious than feeding RAW fish which you seem to have pleasure ramming down our throats.

As you mentioned about bones etc, but do you not rant on about bones & raw food?

Regarding poultry fat....which alot of dog food companies use is a much better alternative to animal fat. Why? Animal fat goes rancid if not preserved artificially, whereas poultry fat can be preserved naturally.

cora2

@ dogsfirst,

yes fresh is best but not everyone can afford it & also how do we know fresh is not diseased?

Look at the bean sprout incident recently, what about mad cow disease in the not so far past?

Wibbs

cora2 wrote: »

At Wibbs, why was it you chose the cheapest food of Whites to berate? Is it because its the only one you can berate. As was mentioned in earlier post why not disect the chicken or the lamb?

Maybe you should look at my previous post where I "berate" their high quality food too. And maybe, just maybe, rather than go on the offensive could you try actually refuting point by point my post? I'd like to see yur reasoning/explanations. Just one will do. Why doesn't Whites(seeing as they're your go to guys for dog food) show the percentage of carbs in their breakdown?

Once you read the above information on the link above you will see as they mention chicken/lamb as their main ingredient it must be a good quality protein source.

Right, because those that are in the biz in selling said food are a good source for unbiased info on said food.

I didnt put the original link up to be biased to any food but it was rather interesting how Dogsfirst & Wibbs like to drum their own opinions down everyone elses throat, like they know best.

You seem quite attached to a particular brand. Why not give your opinion on another brand that's not your facebook friend? Another opinion that doesn't recommend White's as you seem to have done with damn near most of your posts on this forum? Dogsfirst got reprimanded(rightly) for linking to his/her site, yet your history is suspiciously "Whites is right"?

I put the link up as an alternitive for someone who mentioned feeding raw food costs them up to 20 a week. I know I couldnt afford that, so I am happy that I found an affordable food, that helps my lab & shepherd who have various skin problems & now no longer have.

I feed my pup and fed my last adult dog on half that. Nice appeal to those feeling the pinch BTW.

DogsFirst wrote: »

I have no interest in getting into individual brands

Ditto. White's as a dry food is among the better quality. One of the best of a bad lot

my stance is fresh food is better than processed. Which processed food is irrelevant.

Ditto again.

cora2 wrote: »

@ Wibbs

With regards to fishmeal, it is nutrient rich & high in protein because it has been rendered to remove the moisture, so it is more nutritious than feeding RAW fish which you seem to have pleasure ramming down our throats.

You really need to read up on the contaminants in fish meal. DDT, PCB's and the like. Bad enough in human food. Plus you need to bone up on(no pun) what "rendered" actually means.

As you mentioned about bones etc, but do you not rant on about bones & raw food?

Sorry, lines crossed. Don't understand what you mean? In fairness that's most likely at my end.

Regarding poultry fat....which alot of dog food companies use is a much better alternative to animal fat. Why? Animal fat goes rancid if not preserved artificially, whereas poultry fat can be preserved naturally.

No. No really. Are you having a laugh? Seriously? I would love to see your "science" behind that claim... I'll save you the trouble and file it under "crystals are healing you know".

yes fresh is best but not everyone can afford it & also how do we know fresh is not diseased?

Ah the old "raw is diseased" BS. Right well, I presume you've prepared, cooked, eaten steak in your life? Maybe even eaten sushi? You know one can avoid any issue with that, by... washing ones hands after preparation. Plus do you realise the stomach acid strength of the average canid compared to humans? Never mind the far higher levels of lysosyme(sp:s) in a dogs mouth and gut.

Look at the bean sprout incident recently, what about mad cow disease in the not so far past?

You seem terribly eager to defend one brand with hyperbole, nay an advertistorial* tone. I ask you this; would you recommend another dry or wet food brand out there? Your posts thus far seem terribly biased towards Whites.




* should be a word.

cora2

Crystals are healing. Great for balancing your charkas. Shouldn't dis it til you try it.

Dont eat steak nor raw fish. Will eat chicken & turkey. Could be diseased but now a days thats the choice I make.

Regarding your poultry fat & fishmeal reference, I did what you do & look it up on the internet

Other foods Id recommend would be Land of Holistic Pets, Burns, Barking Heads (excellent food) & a new one on the market Green Dog.

Is that enough recommendations for you?

By the sounds of it if its not natural for you then nothing else will do. Bit of a Fred Flinstone going on with you. Do you get up in the morning & go for a morning kill of the widerbeast out in the forest. Does Wilma cook it over the open fire.

Got the Fred Flinstone from the internet like you do. Hopr I managed to get the information about his wifes name correct or did I not "bone up " on that (no pun intened)

star-pants

cora2 wrote: »

By the sounds of it if its not natural for you then nothing else will do. Bit of a Fred Flinstone going on with you. Do you get up in the morning & go for a morning kill of the widerbeast out in the forest. Does Wilma cook it over the open fire.

Not generally a phrase I use as a mod, but Chill Out, seriously.
A new poster, low post count, coming on and pushing one brand, suggesting people contact the very helpful woman there and giving more than one link would make anyone think you were shilling. Be lucky you're not banned for it. I'm giving you benefit of the doubt. But I suggest you keep yourself in check, sarcasm doesn't last long here.
Do not reply to this post, if you've any issue you can PM me/the other mods.

Bullseye1

Some very interesting points W. Could you give an example of what you fed your larger dog a day. Towards the end of my last dogs life we could only get him to eat Chicken (cooked) never considers feeding it to him raw.

Wibbs

Chicken thighs, mince beef, mackerel eggs, veggies(peas, carrots, cooked spuds) that kind of thing. Oh and sometimes cooked stuff too. And scraps from the table. Oh yea and dry food on top. :eek::)

Like I said earlier I'm not "it should always be raw". I'm saying more middle ground/balance kinda thing. My philosophy is, if you're hard on one side of an debate, the more convinced you are your side is correct, the more likely you're wrong. Dry food is very convenient and the good stuff has probiotics, vitamins etc and I found mixing raw/complete ingredients works out pretty good value for money.

I'm just suggesting people look for the best food for their doggies and look behind the hype of the dogfood people AND the raw food people(especially the zealots). The latter can sometimes come out with daft unscientific stuff, like "oh they're natural vitamins". A vitamin is a chemical, regardless of it's source. The dogfood people will come out with scaremongering like bones will kill your dog and raw meat will infect them and kill your kids.

Plus dogs are individuals. Some will go mad for one food and others would avoid it like the plague. Plus some will get upset stomachs from "natural" food, but would chow down on pedigree chum til the cows come home. Just like people(minus the pedigree chum part ).

Shanao

Wibbs wrote: »

The dogfood people will come out with scaremongering like bones will kill your dog and raw meat will infect them and kill your kids.

Dont forget that feeding RAW will make your dog go out and kill every other animal around them because RAW turns them savage:rolleyes: Yes, something I hear almost everytime I suggest adding a raw chicken neck to the food now and again

Wibbs

Oh yea, the "once they get the taste of raw meat!!!:eek::eek:" BS. From what I remember that was a story put about by a dog food company in the US back in the 50's?

There may be more to it in the human psyche though? Some people can't equate their "little darlings" with being predators. IMHO more common in the ladies than the gents. So seeing them crunch through a messy and bloody chicken kinda freaks them out. Better to have that hidden in cute little biscuits. You see that with some cat owners too. Even though cats are praised more for their hunting stuff, when the family moggie brings back a dead rat all pleased with themselves, some people can freak. It's the same detachment some have with their own food. They'll chow down on a steak, but would get real squeamish if they had to hunt and kill the animal that provided it.

Cherry Blossom

DogsFirst wrote: »

You have to admit, fresh is best?!

Let's all have a vote. How do you do that here?!

My dog is a breed that is prone to food intolerances and as you say I agree that fresh is best. I tried my dog on raw, it didn't agree with her, made her very bloated etc. When she has a dodgy stomach I give her boiled lamb with a boil in the bag rice or a few potatoes thrown in to absorb the juices with a few pieces of carrot and some peas, this sorts the problem out.

However, I'm not an expert in canine nutrition so I wouldn't feed a fresh cooked diet permanently as I would question my own ability to ensure she wasn't lacking something in her diet long term and the ingredients she can tolerate are limited. All the best commercial dog-food companies employ a canine nutritionist to ensure their dry food is as nutritionally balanced as possible and I've been through wars finding out which one suits her best. Generally after 3 months on one food she starts eating grass, mud and poo which I take as a cue to change foods. She has no been on barking heads for longer than 3 months and hasn't started this behaviour and I'm very happy with her condition on it. If I can find another that suits her as well I'll alternate the 2 every 6 months. The key to dry dog food is to not stockpile it and head straight for the back of the top shelf were the newest stock generally lives.

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Zapperzy

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

My dog is a breed that is prone to food intolerances and as you say I agree that fresh is best. I tried my dog on raw, it didn't agree with her, made her very bloated etc. When she has a dodgy stomach I give her boiled lamb with a boil in the bag rice or a few potatoes thrown in to absorb the juices with a few pieces of carrot and some peas, this sorts the problem out.

However, I'm not an expert in canine nutrition so I wouldn't feed a fresh cooked diet permanently as I would question my own ability to ensure she wasn't lacking something in her diet long term and the ingredients she can tolerate are limited. All the best commercial dog-food companies employ a canine nutritionist to ensure their dry food is as nutritionally balanced as possible and I've been through wars finding out which one suits her best. Generally after 3 months on one food she starts eating grass, mud and poo which I take as a cue to change foods. She has no been on barking heads for longer than 3 months and hasn't started this behaviour and I'm very happy with her condition on it. If I can find another that suits her as well I'll alternate the 2 every 6 months. The key to dry dog food is to not stockpile it and head straight for the back of the top shelf were the newest stock generally lives.

You can add a poll to the thread using the thread tools option at the top. I'm not sure if you have to be the person who starts the thread to do this or not, but I can do it if you can't.

Why do you say this, especially the second bit about taking the newer stock? Surely once it's not opened and still sealed up there shouldn't be any difference in them?

I'd love to feed fresh, mine gets the odd raw chicken wing every now and again along with veg (raw and cooked) and the occasional leftovers of things like potato, rice or meat. But the problem is I'm the only one in the house that will feed things like this, especially raw meat, everyone else wants convienience and doesn't want to see their little darling chomping through a raw bloody chicken wing. No matter how much I explain the horrors of those crappy brands she still won't listen to what goes into them and would still feed them to him just because he likes them. So I think I'm doing well enough by keeping him on a high quality food, raw will come in time! So since I'm away during the week we have to stick to dry and wet food with just the occasional raw bone as a treat.

Wibbs

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

My dog is a breed that is prone to food intolerances and as you say I agree that fresh is best.

Maybe that's another factor too? Certain breeds with genetic issues. Issues that may well preclude them eating a "natural" especially raw diet.

All the best commercial dog-food companies employ a canine nutritionist to ensure their dry food is as nutritionally balanced as possible

Certainly but when you look at the publicly readable contents of some of the biggest commercial dog food companies with their nutritionists, you do have to wonder what they're going for. Nutrition or costs.

She has no been on barking heads for longer than 3 months and hasn't started this behaviour and I'm very happy with her condition on it.

They seem to get OK reviews. Much better than the "supermarket" brands. http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php/product/2333 What are costs like? Looking at their website they list tomato as an ingredient. I thought tomatoes were a concern for dogs and to be avoided?

The key to dry dog food is to not stockpile it and head straight for the back of the top shelf were the newest stock generally lives.

Good tip.

Cherry Blossom

Wibbs wrote: »

They seem to get OK reviews. Much better than the "supermarket" brands. http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php/product/2333 What are costs like? Looking at their website they list tomato as an ingredient. I thought tomatoes were a concern for dogs and to be avoided?

It's one of the most expensive, but my dog only weighs 6kg and a 2 kg bag at approx €10 lasts over a month.

I think unripe tomatoes, leaves, stem etc. are toxic, ripe totatoes much less so, is not easily digested by dogs and is a very tiny percentage of the food. I think if a small dog ate a whole tomato at once it might be a problem but not these quantities. It did put me off trying the food for a long time though, and I don't see what purpose would be served by putting it in, I might ask them that actually.

Zapperzy, the food will deteriorate faster once opened but there will be a certain amount of deterioration in the bag, if you think about it - if there wasn't it wouldn't need a best before date

Wibbs

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

It's one of the most expensive, but my dog only weighs 6kg and a 2 kg bag at approx €10 lasts over a month.

The little doggie defo helps.

I think unripe tomatoes, leaves, stem etc. are toxic, ripe totatoes much less so, is not easily digested by dogs and is a very tiny percentage of the food. I think if a small dog ate a whole tomato at once it might be a problem but not these quantities. It did put me off trying the food for a long time though, and I don't see what purpose would be served by putting it in, I might ask them that actually.

Sure the leaves etc are toxic for us too. TBH I only heard about the tomato thing in the last few years and will put my hand up to giving my last dog slices of tomato from time to time. Also gave him grapes.:o Not often mind, but having subsequently read the dire warnings you hear... He was a big bugger though, so likely absorbed any toxins.

DogsFirst

Re infection: Some fresh food is diseased, that is highly likely. Check out the below link, huge study on raw chicken in the UK, basically says raw chicken "off the line" (so untreated by manufacturers) has approx. 21% chance of harboring something nasty. Things are a litte better but it's always there. So for omnivores like us with stomach acid of only pH4, we are advised to cook this sort of food.
http://www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/campsalmsurvey.pdf

But dogs are scavenging carnivores with lysozymes in their saliva that destroy these bugs (thats why french soldiers used to let dogs lick their wounds to clean them), very acidic stomachs of ph1 (helps digest the protein meal quickly which fits their lifestyle) and not to mention have evolved alongside these bugs. This gives dogs today the ability to dig up bones 3 months later that are covered in septacemia and have a grand old time. Assuming none of the fresh ingredients we include today are worse than 3 month old rotten flesh, he should be fine.

It is very rare for dogs to contract food illness, such as salmonella (Finley et al. 2006). And what that actually tells us that there must of been something seriously bad going with your dog for his immune system to be so shot as to allow such an every day bug get the better of him. His system would need to be completely shot before succumbing to this. Like pneumonia killing old people.

Also someone said something about raw beef being dangerous? Tell it to the French! Raw beef is the safest meat to consume raw with a 1/300 chance of harboring something bad if grass fed at some stage in its life cycle (incidentally it is the inclusion of some fresh grass here, it's natural diet, thats boosts the immune system and likley keeps infection levels low, like in every other animal). Mince is worse as there is more surface area for critters to form but as long as you're not tucking in yourself, your dog will love it.

Re raw fish. Absolutely some raw fish harbour nasties. In fact most pellagic fish host a variety of worms that will enjoy your guts as much as your dogs. However, deep freezing fish destroys all known fish parasites. So if you're feeding fish to your dog make sure it has been frozen to these temps at some stage in its journey from sea to your plate.

Don't feed raw pork, there are encysted baddies in battery pork here that even your dog will suffer from.

The thing is, what few people realise, is that while raw food will contain campo and ecoli, so does dry food (Strohmeyer et al. (2006)). In fact, with around 10% of dog owners now including raw products at some stage of their dogs existence, to date there has never ever been one instance of a raw fed dog contracting (or passing on to their owner) an infection/illness from their food (See Finley above). Unfortunately the same can't be said for dry food in it's short time at the top (Schotte et al 2007, ). In fact just have a look at the FDA website that is responsible for documenting and controlling pet food recalls. Over half the recalls are for salmonella, ecoli, alfatoxin (one of the most carcinogenic baddies known to man), the other half for when they "got the (chemical) mix wrong" (eg 2007 melamine scandal).

So yes raw fresh ingredients can be dodgy here and there but they're a lot safer than something that has been sitting in a cargo container, shipped from (or at least containing the ingredients of) countries with pretty poor food standards and ethics, chemical quantities that would never be allowed in the human food chain, over 1.5% salt (this is more than sea water, without the dogs won't eat the stuff), additives, fixatives, flavours, colours, enhancers, preservatives.

Still, like the revels ad, if it's a game of Russian roulette, my money's on the fresh ingredient guy.


Finally re price: It's funny how people are concerned for the price of feeding a good fresh diet for their dog. One you make yourself costs around €2/kg and 30 mins of your time. I mean one tin of pink salmon in lidl for 1 euro. One euro for 300g of rocket fuel or the same for a can of dog food which is 80% water and only 4% meat. This meat is from unknown sources, which is never good. If anyone is wondering how to do it just PM me and I'll send you the blueprints. Funny how people have no prob spending €60 on 15kg of dry food which is €4/kg! For crackers!!

Then you have the savings on vet bills, check our Canine Health Concern for their surveys in this matter.

Hope this helps...