Scottish Independence - NI implications

dlofnep

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Has anyone studied history?

Scotland voted to become part of the UK and it can just as easily vote to leave. Ireland- not so much. Military conquest.

Actually, it didn't in fairness. The majority of the Scottish people opposed the Union. This is historical fact. It was the Scottish elite, who were bribed into the union that supported it.

Fratton Fred

9ng2cderzksuip wrote: »

A 2 state federation would be a more likely eventuality than single unified state.

Certain offices would have an all Ireland nature though (and require an all Ireland election) such as Federal President and other key posts. I would still see a Taoiseach/First Minister in each respective constituent state in the federation.

And apart from giving nationalists the warm cosy feeling of having wrestled Ireland away from the nasty Brits, what exactly does this achieve?

glic71rods46t0

Fratton Fred wrote: »

And apart from giving nationalists the warm cosy feeling of having wrestled Ireland away from the nasty Brits, what exactly does this achieve?

It allows NI to replicate the success of ROI in attracting inward investment by being able to apply the same corporation taxes, educational standards etc that makes ROI so attractive to multinationals.
This would help NI recover from the heavy losses of direct subvention from Westminster (cutbacks have started already and will get worse). NI will be an economic desert if something radical like this is not done.
The 2 state federation allows unionists to feel differntiated from the rest of us while, at the same time, making a de facto united Ireland.

Border-Rat

Bankrupt England will implode the Union, the collapse of the dollar will push it over the edge. Then we'll have a Federal Ireland, illusions of Britannia in the 06 will soon evaporate when the bread and milk aren't being delivered, they'll soon look to Dublin.

OS119

Border-Rat wrote: »

Bankrupt England will implode the Union, the collapse of the dollar will push it over the edge. Then we'll have a Federal Ireland, illusions of Britannia in the 06 will soon evaporate when the bread and milk aren't being delivered, they'll soon look to Dublin.

just to check, and i'm aware of the current state of the UK's finances, but you have seen who's paying the Republics bills right now, haven't you?

glic71rods46t0

OS119 wrote: »

just to check, and i'm aware of the current state of the UK's finances, but you have seen who's paying the Republics bills right now, haven't you?

We're paying everything ourselves. The money provided by the ECB/EU/IMF and the bilateral loan from UK was BORROWED. We will be paying it back with interest - if I borrow from the bank to buy a house or a car I dont feel that the bank has paid my bills - silly description!

OS119

9ng2cderzksuip wrote: »

We're paying everything ourselves. The money provided by the ECB/EU/IMF and the bilateral loan from UK was BORROWED. We will be paying it back with interest - if I borrow from the bank to buy a house or a car I dont feel that the bank has paid my bills - silly description!

borrowing money to buy a capital asset - house, car etc - is very different to having to continually borrow to pay your everyday day bills.

there may be many ways to persuade current unionists to change their allegence to the Republic, but at the moment, financial security is not one of them.

murphaph

People who think the English robbed Scotland of their oil need to think again.

North Sea oil is amongst the hardest won oil in the world. It is many times more difficult to extract that the Norwegian stuff and it cost vast sums of money to get it to a production state. Money Scotland didn't have.

If Scotland had been independent all along, they would have still had to sell their oil rights to a private company.

Fratton Fred

Border-Rat wrote: »

Bankrupt England will implode the Union, the collapse of the dollar will push it over the edge. Then we'll have a Federal Ireland, illusions of Britannia in the 06 will soon evaporate when the bread and milk aren't being delivered, they'll soon look to Dublin.

maybe that's why the Scots now want away, the English are too skint to carry on paying for their free prescriptions and education.

Judgement Day

Fratton Fred wrote: »

maybe that's why the Scots now want away, the English are too skint to carry on paying for their free prescriptions and education.

Rats leaving what they incorrectly perceive as a sinking ship. Scotland did very well out of the British Empire/UK but a cabal of opportunistic chancers in the SNP and fools in the Labour party have brought about this sorry mess - not forgetting the Tory party's contribution. Every time that I pass the British Embassy in Ballsbridge I am reminded of what the 'frocks' have done to the United Kingdom.

Richard

KeithAFC wrote: »

What has Scotland got to do with Northern Ireland? And Northern Ireland is a bit different in many ways. One of them being that people would fight it with arms. Something which I doubt would happen in Scotland.

Hang on, though. You're talking about Scottish Independence (and potential Irish unification) as if they'd be imposed against the wishes if the majority. They wouldn't be.

steddyeddy

Judgement Day wrote: »

Rats leaving what they incorrectly perceive as a sinking ship. Scotland did very well out of the British Empire/UK but a cabal of opportunistic chancers in the SNP and fools in the Labour party have brought about this sorry mess - not forgetting the Tory party's contribution. Every time that I pass the British Embassy in Ballsbridge I am reminded of what the 'frocks' have done to the United Kingdom.

Well I suspect that britian would be better of without having to pay for scotland I suppose. Is it fair to say the scots want independence simply because of a temporary recession? If so is that not short sighted to be cutting financial ties for that reason?

Richard

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

But parties like the Scottish National Party want Scotland to be independent from both the UK and the EU. Clearly this is a step backwards.

The SNP want Scotland to stay in the EU and also to retain GB£. Some, including the leader want to retain the monarchy, like Canada. In fact, from their recent pronouncements, it sounds like they want it to be like the Isle of Man or Jersey.

I honestly don't think the Scots are going to vote for independence any time soon. The SNP's popularity is largely due to them not being Labour, Conservative, or Lib Dem.

woodoo

I was surprised at how anti English some Scottish people are. It doesn't surprise me so many want away.

Alopex

Richard wrote: »

The SNP want Scotland to stay in the EU and also to retain GB£. Some, including the leader want to retain the monarchy, like Canada. In fact, from their recent pronouncements, it sounds like they want it to be like the Isle of Man or Jersey.

I honestly don't think the Scots are going to vote for independence any time soon. The SNP's popularity is largely due to them not being Labour, Conservative, or Lib Dem.

Could it be a ploy? Like by combining their surge popularity with the notion that not much is changing they may just scrape it. They can then start chipping away at the British remnants once a majority votes yes

dlofnep

Richard wrote: »

I honestly don't think the Scots are going to vote for independence any time soon. The SNP's popularity is largely due to them not being Labour, Conservative, or Lib Dem.

So, their popularity is largely due to them not being one of the other three main political parties... You say it like it's a bad thing. The reality is, support for the SNP has been growing for a considerable number of years. The Scottish public have been impressed by the SNP's work, and that is why they won a landslide victory in the last elections.

junder

dlofnep wrote: »

So, their popularity is largely due to them not being one of the other three main political parties... You say it like it's a bad thing. The reality is, support for the SNP has been growing for a considerable number of years. The Scottish public have been impressed by the SNP's work, and that is why they won a landslide victory in the last elections.

The snp has become popular by virtue of it's populas policys such as free prescriptions and no university fees. But these policys are being bank rolled by the large uk (in reality English) economy and would not be sustainable in a independent Scotland. The snp has pinned it's hopes on north sea gas to fund Scotland, but as recent reports have suggested the north saa reserves are not going to last much longer. I believe the snp ( I could be wrong) have yet to release a full break down in costs of independence, it would be interesting to see were the money for health (let's not forget the Scottish people are used to free health care and now free prescriptions), education (university fees?), roads, Police etc etc.
As for northern Ireland, the uk government has signed up to an agreement that states that the position of northern Ireland will not change unless the majorty of the people of northern choose so, regardless of what's happens in the rest of the uk. Speaking of costs isn't about time those republicans and nationalist party's produced a break down in costs for merging northern Ireland into the republic of Ireland, would be interesting to see were the money is going to come from.

Ps if Scotland did gets it's independence you do realise it will be competing directly with the republic?

Broxi_Bear_Eire

junder wrote: »

The snp has become popular by virtue of it's populas policys such as free prescriptions and no university fees. But these policys are being bank rolled by the large uk (in reality English) economy and would not be sustainable in a independent Scotland. The snp has pinned it's hopes on north sea gas to fund Scotland, but as recent reports have suggested the north saa reserves are not going to last much longer. I believe the snp ( I could be wrong) have yet to release a full break down in costs of independence, it would be interesting to see were the money for health (let's not forget the Scottish people are used to free health care and now free prescriptions), education (university fees?), roads, Police etc etc.
As for northern Ireland, the uk government has signed up to an agreement that states that the position of northern Ireland will not change unless the majorty of the people of northern choose so, regardless of what's happens in the rest of the uk. Speaking of costs isn't about time those republicans and nationalist party's produced a break down in costs for merging northern Ireland into the republic of Ireland, would be interesting to see were the money is going to come from.

Ps if Scotland did gets it's independence you do realise it will be competing directly with the republic?

I am not a lover of the SNP but what you are saying about the Prescription charges etc is not exactly right They use money that comes from a budget remember when Scotland got the power of devolution certain powers to raise money came into operation. As for them relying on oil if they gain Independence that is far from the truth thats an old story that for some reason people still believe the SNP believe they have an economic program that doesn't need oil

murphaph

Their policy will be as Junder says to compete for FDI en masse. They will be able (at current pay levels) to substantially undecut the RoI in this regard. People should be careful what they wish for

getz

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

I am not a lover of the SNP but what you are saying about the Prescription charges etc is not exactly right They use money that comes from a budget remember when Scotland got the power of devolution certain powers to raise money came into operation. As for them relying on oil if they gain Independence that is far from the truth thats an old story that for some reason people still believe the SNP believe they have an economic program that doesn't need oil

what a lot of people do not understand,is that scotland would have to have its own currency ,it would no longer be linked to british stirling,it may try to go on the euro,but as a new independent country it would have to apply to join the EU,and as the economy would not be sustainably,it would be unlikely to be excepted,a large part of their workforce are employed by the UK,[like northern ireland] those jobs would be lost,and moved to england,northern ireland or wales.to be honest,i do not believe the scots want to leave the UK,

listermint

murphaph wrote: »

Their policy will be as Junder says to compete for FDI en masse. They will be able (at current pay levels) to substantially undecut the RoI in this regard. People should be careful what they wish for

But also you must realise that Scotland doesnt have en masse a young Third level educated workforce. Be careful what you state.

Broxi_Bear_Eire

getz wrote: »

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

I am not a lover of the SNP but what you are saying about the Prescription charges etc is not exactly right They use money that comes from a budget remember when Scotland got the power of devolution certain powers to raise money came into operation. As for them relying on oil if they gain Independence that is far from the truth thats an old story that for some reason people still believe the SNP believe they have an economic program that doesn't need oil

what a lot of people do not understand,is that scotland would have to have its own currency ,it would no longer be linked to british stirling,it may try to go on the euro,but as a new independent country it would have to apply to join the EU,and as the economy would not be sustainably,it would be unlikely to be excepted,a large part of their workforce are employed by the UK,[like northern ireland] those jobs would be lost,and moved to england,northern ireland or wales.to be honest,i do not believe the scots want to leave the UK,

I am well aware of the things you state and I agree that most Scots don't want total independence at the moment I believe the time is coming when they will. Also people seem to think an independent Scotland will cut al ties with England that will never happen for a number of reasons some economical some stratigic

Fratton Fred

listermint wrote: »

But also you must realise that Scotland doesnt have en masse a young Third level educated workforce. Be careful what you state.

Doesn't it? With one of the best universities in the world there I am surprised at that.

Don't underestimate the "Athens of the North".

listermint

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Doesn't it? With one of the best universities in the world there I am surprised at that.

Don't underestimate the "Athens of the North".

Okay so it has 1 university? Whats your point. The vast majority of the youth dont hit third level, this is in stark contrast to Ireland.

Fratton Fred

listermint wrote: »

Okay so it has 1 university? Whats your point. The vast majority of the youth dont hit third level, this is in stark contrast to Ireland.

It has a lot of universities, but one in particular that is exceptional.

Where did you get the figures from stating that the Scottish third level education rate is low? That surprises me.

p

9ng2cderzksuip wrote: »

With a recent opinion poll indicating a majority of of Scots favour iindependence, what are the implications for Northern Ireland (in the event of a referendum on independence passing)?

What opinion poll is that?

As far as I've read, there has been consistently low support for independence for Scotland when people were actually asked what would they would vote in a referendum. People support more powers in Scotland but that's all, for the moment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence#Public_opinion

getz

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

I am well aware of the things you state and I agree that most Scots don't want total independence at the moment I believe the time is coming when they will. Also people seem to think an independent Scotland will cut al ties with England that will never happen for a number of reasons some economical some stratigic

how can it work ? any independant scotland would not be able to get money out of the UK taxpayer,as a independant country,it would no longer be under the rule of westminister ,it would have to generate its own tax money,passports it would be unable to use stirling,and then either join the euo or generate its own currency, and its goverment would have to agree new terms with the EU, the backlash of a independant scotland would end in tears,MPs in the UK are now meeting to put a vote to the people on the EU in 2013,the citizens in the UK will be asked three questions,[1 ] do we leave the EU,[2 ] do we go back to the EU and talk on changing the rules,[3 ]do we leave things as they are, all the polls to date say they want out, scotland would be left between a rock and a hard place,as braking away or ever going that way ,will not get them any sympathy from the rest of us,in fact it could generate hostility

listermint

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It has a lot of universities, but one in particular that is exceptional.

Where did you get the figures from stating that the Scottish third level education rate is low? That surprises me.

nothing surprising about it

http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz341/listermint/links/thirdleveledu.jpg


Ireland of late has had one of the highest participation at third level in the EU. due in no small part to the Fees issue.

In 06/07 Ireland had 149,502 Students in Third Level Education (Studying Degree graded modules)

Scotland at this time had 132,360

OS119

listermint wrote: »

...Ireland of late has had one of the highest participation at third level in the EU. due in no small part to the Fees issue.

without wishing to be rude, exactly what good has it done you?

Justmedave

Scotland independent is more popular in England than it is in Scotland! SNP might be making a lot of noises but at the end of the day many Scottish people tend to vote for labor or lib dem!

I'm a proud Scotsman I do not wist for independent Scotland and cut ties with south , I see myself Scottish 1st & British!

I get fed up people banging on about past history and why we should be independent! I also get fed up with English people moaning we get free this, free that,

But England need Scotland and we need England.... This is 2011, the English are alright nowadays! Why be independent just for the sake of it!

I've read someone posted here Scotland is run by English MP in Westminster...You will find many MP at Westminster are Scottish/welsh and rightly so! Gordon brown did a ****e job but he's Scottish