Scottish Independence - NI implications

listermint

OS119 wrote: »

without wishing to be rude, exactly what good has it done you?

Sorry OS, but you are coming across as incredibly rude. Do you mind illustrating what you thoughts are exactly?

Which part of my posts are causing you such dire pain ?

junder

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

I am not a lover of the SNP but what you are saying about the Prescription charges etc is not exactly right They use money that comes from a budget remember when Scotland got the power of devolution certain powers to raise money came into operation. As for them relying on oil if they gain Independence that is far from the truth thats an old story that for some reason people still believe the SNP believe they have an economic program that doesn't need oil

Scotland has some money raising ability but not enough to run the country, they still rely on the block grant like the rest of the devolved governments, as for oil that comes direct from the horses mouth, all the idiot snp person yelling me this told me the north sea oil reserves would make Scotland something like the 8th richest in the world. Again if I an wrong then let's see tbe snp gives us a complete break down in costs (including how they will fund themselves) for indepence

getz

junder wrote: »

Scotland has some money raising ability but not enough to run the country, they still rely on the block grant like the rest of the devolved governments, as for oil that comes direct from the horses mouth, all the idiot snp person yelling me this told me the north sea oil reserves would make Scotland something like the 8th richest in the world. Again if I an wrong then let's see tbe snp gives us a complete break down in costs (including how they will fund themselves) for indepence

irelands got oil in their waters,but they get very little income out of that

OS119

listermint wrote: »

Sorry OS, but you are coming across as incredibly rude. Do you mind illustrating what you thoughts are exactly?

Which part of my posts are causing you such dire pain ?

i was being slightly tongue in cheek - but making reference to the great 'knowledge economy' which somehow sees emmigration going towards 1980's levels, massive graduate unemployment, significant 'adjustments' in public spending, an economy and political class on its arse, and the EU/IMF signing the cheques.

i was also thinking of the recent debate on here about the relative worth of Irish Degrees, caused by underfunding/over-population of the universities, leading to a question mark over the continuation of 'free' 3rd level education, and concerns raised by some of those FDI companies that while Irish universities are certainly churning out graduates, that they are not impressed with the quality of a proportion of those graduates.

i will, of course, admit to an element of umbridge - firstly at a poster who rather dismissed Scotlands universities (3 in the top 70 worldwide) and the recollection of continually being told that 'Ireland is the second richest country in the world/Europe/whateveritwas so nerr-nerr-ner-ner'...

no particular offence meant.

dlofnep

Justmedave wrote: »

I've read someone posted here Scotland is run by English MP in Westminster...You will find many MP at Westminster are Scottish/welsh and rightly so! Gordon brown did a ****e job but he's Scottish

9% of MPs in Westminster are Scottish. 82% are English. It's irrelevant if Gordon Brown was Scottish. It certainly doesn't imply that he could go against the grain of the majority of English MPs that made up the Labour party in the interests of Scotland.

English MPs control Westminster. Scottish MPs have very little say whatsoever, and those who do have a say, are usually just voting in lines of party politics for parties that have the majority of their base in England.

Fratton Fred

dlofnep wrote: »

9% of MPs in Westminster are Scottish. 82% are English. It's irrelevant if Gordon Brown was Scottish. It certainly doesn't imply that he could go against the grain of the majority of English MPs that made up the Labour party in the interests of Scotland.

English MPs control Westminster. Scottish MPs have very little say whatsoever, and those who do have a say, are usually just voting in lines of party politics for parties that have the majority of their base in England.

When you say Scottish MPs, do you mean MPs representing constituencies in Scotland, or MPs who would qualify to play for the Scottish football team?

I take it as well that you are presuming everyone in Scotland is Scottish and everyone in England is English.

The Scottish/English relationship is very complex, much more so than (for example) the Irish/English relationship.

Btw, of the 650 MPs in Westminster, 59 are Scottish. To give England and Scottish equal representation, they should have 44.

Sounds like Scotland are doing quite well.

listermint

OS119 wrote: »

i was being slightly tongue in cheek - but making reference to the great 'knowledge economy' which somehow sees emmigration going towards 1980's levels, massive graduate unemployment, significant 'adjustments' in public spending, an economy and political class on its arse, and the EU/IMF signing the cheques.

i was also thinking of the recent debate on here about the relative worth of Irish Degrees, caused by underfunding/over-population of the universities, leading to a question mark over the continuation of 'free' 3rd level education, and concerns raised by some of those FDI companies that while Irish universities are certainly churning out graduates, that they are not impressed with the quality of a proportion of those graduates.

i will, of course, admit to an element of umbridge - firstly at a poster who rather dismissed Scotlands universities (3 in the top 70 worldwide) and the recollection of continually being told that 'Ireland is the second richest country in the world/Europe/whateveritwas so nerr-nerr-ner-ner'...

no particular offence meant.

Emmigration has very little to do with Higher Education and alot to do with the global situation and bad management of previous and current regulation in relation to the Financial Industry, But i suspect you know this.

I was pointing to a previous posters argument that somehow Scotland poses some major threat to Ireland in terms of FDI.

Education was one point I raised, yet there are far more in terms of legacy, Infrastructure, direct and indirect global relationships. But hey lets make this a rubbish post about how Ireland lived it up and now its reaping the rewards. But there are arguments to counter all of mine, snide remarks not withstanding.

Anyway, back on topic because we are wildly off it.


I personally believe that genuine Independence will not happen in Scotland. Now or ever. There is not overwhelming appetite for it and very little to gain from it.

dlofnep

Fratton Fred wrote: »

When you say Scottish MPs, do you mean MPs representing constituencies in Scotland, or MPs who would qualify to play for the Scottish football team?

The former.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I take it as well that you are presuming everyone in Scotland is Scottish and everyone in England is English.

I am not, stop deflecting.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Sounds like Scotland are doing quite well.

Scotland elected a Tory MP... not even a number - just 'a' Tory MP.. and live under a Tory Government. So yeah, I'm sure they are doing just magnificent with a Government that the entire Scottish electorate voted to overwhelmingly reject. The only reason why Labour returns so many seats is because the Scottish electorate see them as the lesser of two evils, as the SNP could never have enough to form a UK Government.

getz

dlofnep wrote: »

9% of MPs in Westminster are Scottish. 82% are English. It's irrelevant if Gordon Brown was Scottish. It certainly doesn't imply that he could go against the grain of the majority of English MPs that made up the Labour party in the interests of Scotland.

English MPs control Westminster. Scottish MPs have very little say whatsoever, and those who do have a say, are usually just voting in lines of party politics for parties that have the majority of their base in England.

english MPs cannot vote on scottish business,but scottish MPs can vote on english busness,who gets the better deal ?scottish MPs voted for free prescriptions for the sick in scotland,and voted against free prescriptions for sick in england,

Madam

The only reason why Labour returns so many seats is because the Scottish electorate see them as the lesser of two evils, as the SNP could never have enough to form a UK Government.[/QUOTE]

That does'nt make any sense - the SNP don't want to govern the UK(the clue in is their name):rolleyes:

Fratton Fred

dlofnep wrote: »

Scotland elected a Tory MP... not even a number - just 'a' Tory MP.. and live under a Tory Government. So yeah, I'm sure they are doing just magnificent with a Government that the entire Scottish electorate voted to overwhelmingly reject. The only reason why Labour returns so many seats is because the Scottish electorate see them as the lesser of two evils, as the SNP could never have enough to form a UK Government.

So now there is a Tory government they are suffering, conversely, they must have been doing just fine under a labour government then?

The North East of England is a labour stronghold, should they have independence as well? Should conservative Berkshire be protected whenever labour get into power?

You are making a lot of assumptions based solely on the last election.

Madam

The North East of England or Berkshire is not a country:)

Fratton Fred

listermint wrote: »

Anyway, back on topic because we are wildly off it.


I personally believe that genuine Independence will not happen in Scotland. Now or ever. There is not overwhelming appetite for it and very little to gain from it.

Yes, that is pretty much how I see it.

I have a lot of Scottish friends as well as colleagues and whilst they are all patriotic English hating Scotsmen, believe that there is no great need for Scotland to be independent.

Madam

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Yes, that is pretty much how I see it.

I have a lot of Scottish friends as well as colleagues and whilst they are all patriotic English hating Scotsmen, believe that there is no great need for Scotland to be independent.

They say that but how would they would vote if it came down to an either or?

Btw my Scottish friends would see it differently.

Fratton Fred

Madam wrote: »

The North East of England or Berkshire is not a country:)

So?

Fratton Fred

Madam wrote: »

They say that but how would they would vote if it came down to an either or?

Btw my Scottish friends would see it differently.

They would vote against an independent Scotland. They would be very surprised if a referendum was called within the next 20 years as well because they are convinced there is no appetite for it outside of the council estates in Glasgow.

Madam

Fratton Fred wrote: »

They would vote against an independent Scotland. They would be very surprised if a referendum was called within the next 20 years as well because they are convinced there is no appetite for it outside of the council estates in Glasgow.

Au contraire - I think you'll find most folk who vote SNP(including myself for the first time at last election)don't come from housing estates in Glasgow(numbers who vote will verify that)! Are you saying it's only the working classes who vote SNP, if so your mistaken, you'll find most folk who vote for the party are people from OUTSIDE the council housing estates, who tend to think there can be a new way of running the country away from the usual Labour or Con/Dem way(tried and sadly lacking imo). Again these folk usually vote labour(old thing of my mother and father/grandad/uncles/aunts/the guy next door voted Labour so they vote the same!

As for the North of England/Berkshire thing, they don't(at the moment)have devolved government so how on earth could they have independence ? Besides they are part of England, Scotland is it's own entity:p

dlofnep

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So now there is a Tory government they are suffering, conversely, they must have been doing just fine under a labour government then?

That's not the point. The point is, is that the nation of Scotland lives under the Governance of a political party which has only 1 MP out of 59 Scottish constituencies. If that doesn't tell you something - then you're not listening.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The North East of England is a labour stronghold, should they have independence as well? Should conservative Berkshire be protected whenever labour get into power?

No. You cannot compare the political will of the majority of a country (Scotland), to voting practices in a single county.

You're simply ignoring the reality that Scottish voters overwhelmingly rejected a Tory Government, and yet - are under Tory Governance. And you still view that Scotland is somehow getting a 'good deal'. Pull the other one.

Soldie

dlofnep wrote: »

Scotland elected a Tory MP... not even a number - just 'a' Tory MP.. and live under a Tory Government. So yeah, I'm sure they are doing just magnificent with a Government that the entire Scottish electorate voted to overwhelmingly reject. The only reason why Labour returns so many seats is because the Scottish electorate see them as the lesser of two evils, as the SNP could never have enough to form a UK Government.

In the 2007 Irish general election, the fine people of Mayo returned just one Fianna Fáil TD, but nevertheless suffered for four years under a Fianna Fáil-lead government. Using your logic, Mayo should have declared independence from Ireland to stop the scandalous external meddling in their affairs. Similarly, with 9, Labour have the highest number of councillors on the South Dublin County Council; I am not a Labour voter, and I know that my two neighbours on either side of me are not, either. Should the three of us declare independence and put a stop to this travesty?

Where does it end? I'm sure you'll agree that the above is ridiculous, but I suspect your issues with parliamentary politics is more so thinly-veiled anti-English sentiment than anything else.

Fratton Fred

dlofnep wrote: »

That's not the point. The point is, is that the nation of Scotland lives under the Governance of a political party which has only 1 MP out of 59 Scottish constituencies. If that doesn't tell you something - then you're not listening.



No. You cannot compare the political will of the majority of a country (Scotland), to voting practices in a single county.

You're simply ignoring the reality that Scottish voters overwhelmingly rejected a Tory Government, and yet - are under Tory Governance. And you still view that Scotland is somehow getting a 'good deal'. Pull the other one.

On the same basis you are using, the 2010 general election, 53 of the 59 seats in Scotland did not go to parties that are pro Scottish independence, yet you seem to think that this somehow demonstrates that Scotland is crying out for independence.

Fratton Fred

Madam wrote: »

Au contraire - I think you'll find most folk who vote SNP(including myself for the first time at last election)don't come from housing estates in Glasgow(numbers who vote will verify that)! Are you saying it's only the working classes who vote SNP, if so your mistaken, you'll find most folk who vote for the party are people from OUTSIDE the council housing estates, who tend to think there can be a new way of running the country away from the usual Labour or Con/Dem way(tried and sadly lacking imo). Again these folk usually vote labour(old thing of my mother and father/grandad/uncles/aunts/the guy next door voted Labour so they vote the same!

As for the North of England/Berkshire thing, they don't(at the moment)have devolved government so how on earth could they have independence ? Besides they are part of England, Scotland is it's own entity:p

I'm only relaying what Scots have told me, I have yet to meet a Scot in person who is pro independence, but I admit that could be because all the Scots I meet are in either England or Ireland.

As for the north, or Berkshire, despite those only being regions and not countries, do you think the people of the North East are hard done by under the Tories, or that Conservative Berkshire and Surrey were oppressed under a decade of Labour rule?

dlofnep

Soldie wrote: »

In the 2007 Irish general election, the fine people of Mayo returned just one Fianna Fáil TD, but nevertheless suffered for four years under a Fianna Fáil-lead government. Using your logic, Mayo should have declared independence from Ireland to stop the scandalous external meddling in their affairs. Similarly, with 9, Labour have the highest number of councillors on the South Dublin County Council; I am not a Labour voter, and I know that my two neighbours on either side of me are not, either. Should the three of us declare independence and put a stop to this travesty?

Scotland is a country, not a county. So there is absolutely a case to be made for it's independence. An independent county could not stand on it's own. Scotland as an independent nation, like another nation absolutely could where there is the political will for it. You're just re-hashing Fred's poor arguments.

As for your accusations of an 'anti-English' sentiment, I'll treat that statement with the contempt it deserves.

Fratton Fred

dlofnep wrote: »

Scotland is a country, not a county. So there is absolutely a case to be made for it's independence. An independent county could not stand on it's own. Scotland as an independent nation, like another nation absolutely could where there is the political will for it. You're just re-hashing Fred's poor arguments.

As for your accusations of an 'anti-English' sentiment, I'll treat that statement with the contempt it deserves.

Could you explain the difference?

Do the people of Carlisle have a different set of needs to the people of Gretna?

Are the people of Glasgow the same as the people of Lerwick?

Soldie

dlofnep wrote: »

Scotland is a country, not a county. So there is absolutely a case to be made for it's independence. An independent county could not stand on it's own. Scotland as an independent nation, like another nation absolutely could where there is the political will for it. You're just re-hashing Fred's poor arguments.

What difference does it make? Why should the people of Mayo have been forced to live under a Fianna Fáil government when they rejected Fianna Fáil in 2007? Because it's a county? Come on, you can do better than that. That is a pitiful explanation. A county is as much of an abstraction as a country is; it's just lines on a map.

As for your accusations of an 'anti-English' sentiment, I'll treat that statement with the contempt it deserves.

I would genuinely love to be proved wrong.

Richard

dlofnep wrote: »

So, their popularity is largely due to them not being one of the other three main political parties... You say it like it's a bad thing. The reality is, support for the SNP has been growing for a considerable number of years. The Scottish public have been impressed by the SNP's work, and that is why they won a landslide victory in the last elections.

I think a lot of Scottish people are unhappy about London-based parties. You're right that the SNP are also popular because of their policies. But voting SNP does not make someone a nationalist. Especially if you know nothing will happen without a referendum.

Don't forget that the Scottish Unionist Party, which in the 60s merged with Conservatives, had a huge following in Scotland, partly because they promoted a Scottish identity (albeit one firmly part of a non-devolved UK)

dlofnep

Soldie wrote: »

What difference does it make? Why should the people of Mayo have been forced to live under a Fianna Fáil government when they rejected Fianna Fáil in 2007? Because it's a county? Come on, you can do better than that. That is a pitiful explanation. A county is as much of an abstraction as a country is; it's just lines on a map.

The difference is Scotland is a nation - and the nation as a whole has a polar opposite political aspiration than England. It's only pitiful because you take issue with the idea of Scotland being independent as a legitimate view, or the aspiration of independence based on the reality that the country is politically different as a whole than England.

I don't see anyone from Mayo calling for an independent country of the Republic of Mayo, but I see large numbers of Scots calling for independence. So it's far beyond an arbitrary line on a map.

Soldie wrote: »

I would genuinely love to be proved wrong.

You made the claim - the onus is on you to back it up. Demonstrate evidence that I have an anti-English sentiment.

murphaph

dlofnep wrote: »

The difference is Scotland is a nation - and the nation as a whole has a polar opposite political aspiration than England.

You mean parts of England. Much of Scotland has lots in common with the Labour heartlands in England. Parts of England have never elected a Tory MP.

It doesn't really matter about nationhood etc. What matters is what benefits people in their day to day business and many Scots are unconvinced that independence will advance this aspect o their lives.

dlofnep

murphaph wrote: »

You mean parts of England. Much of Scotland has lots in common with the Labour heartlands in England. Parts of England have never elected a Tory MP.

297 Tory seats in England, 1 Tory seat in Scotland. While it's true parts of England have Labour strongholds - it's absolutely absurd to say that it doesn't matter about 'nationhood'. It absolutely matters. There is no political desire in northern England to seek independence and never has been - there is in Scotland. That's the difference.

murphaph wrote: »

What matters is what benefits people in their day to day business and many Scots are unconvinced that independence will advance this aspect o their lives.

And many Scots are convinced that it will. Support for independence is growing, not only in Scotland - but across Britain.

Fratton Fred

dlofnep wrote: »

297 Tory seats in England, 1 Tory seat in Scotland. While it's true parts of England have Labour strongholds - it's absolutely absurd to say that it doesn't matter about 'nationhood'. It absolutely matters. There is no political desire in northern England to seek independence and never has been - there is in Scotland. That's the difference.



And many Scots are convinced that it will. Support for independence is growing, not only in Scotland - but across Britain.

You conveniently ignore the fact that of the 59 MPs in Scotland, only 6 of them are pro independence.

Up until the last election, the biggest party in Scotland was labour, the biggest party in England was labour.

There 650 seats at Westminster, the Tories have a lot less than half, which is why they are power sharing with the Lib Dems, who are, funnily enough, the second largest party in Scotland.

England and Scotland are not politically polar opposites.

getz

the scottish independent party is having its conference this week,they say they have only 40,000 members,and hope that they can double ,that by the next elections,considering that the country has a population of five million,thats not alot of members