Motorway advance signage (lack of)

betistuc

Emailed this to the NRA today.I think this problem is widespread. Am I alone on this one?


Dear NRA
While I am delighted that all our main cities(and Kells) are connected to Dublin by high quality motorways , I am puzzled by the lack of advance signage for these roads. For example, if you are travelling south on the M50 approaching J6 , you won't see signs for M3 . It just says Cavan N3 .This applies from whatever direction you are coming from . Would it not be better to let people know that their journey to Cavan (I know its only Kells)can be done using the M3 or if they prefer, on the old N3. So should'nt the signs read Cavan N3 (M3)with blue background on the latter. This is how it is done in the UK. They never fail to mention the motorway option even if its fifty miles to the nearest junction.

Same story at the Red Cow junction . Cork, Limerick and Waterford are signed as via N7 . No mention of M7, M8,and M9.

At the port tunnel ,no mention of the motorway network, just names of places and the N roads they can be reached by using.

One more example and I'm sure there are many, is coming south on the N2 from the border , there is no mention anywhere that the M1 can be accessed via the N53 (Castleblaney-Dundalk). This is a perfect alternative route to Dublin Airport, Dublin or Belfast and all towns in- between. If you were a non local travelling on the N53 towards Dundalk, you'd never know of the location of the M1 until you are right on top of it!

I know money is tight so why not use the existing signs and just stick plastic blue background motorway signs in the appropriate place to inform everyone.

Maybe you have a plan and maybe I'm missing something.Either way I'd be interested to hear your comments on this. End

I will post any reply I might receive.

L1011

You're alone

The road that goes to Cavan from the M50 is the N3. It does not become the M3 for a few kilometres. Hence it being signed N3.

The fact that the M3 goes to Cavan is *well* signed before the road changes status. The N3 then ceases to exist until north of Kells, the "old N3" is the R147 and no other number.

The fact that the UK signs with () is due to the fact that they are different roads. Here, M just means that it is the N road under motorway restrictions. Here, where the route changes is signed with (), which is why Cork has (M8) on road signs on the M7.

Signing Dublin in multiple directions as you're suggesting with the N2/N53 will lead to abject confusion. That's why its not done.

betistuc

Interesting MYOB, but my point is advance signage. If for instance I'm a learner driver and I know in advance that the N3 becomes the M3 up ahead ,I'll know to go for the R147 or whatever to stay legal. That's just one scenario.

I take your point on multisigning but even on the entire N53 there is no mention of the M1.Surely this and other motorways should be advertised more widely.

L1011

Every motorway in Ireland other than the M50 has an adjacent R road.

There are M1 signs on the N53 when approaching its junction with it. Its just another road and not the destination of the N53 (that being Dundalk) hence it isn't signed any different than any other road.

Amtmann

I completely see where the OP is coming from. If you were to go to Dublin from West Cork or east Kerry, you'd probably do so via the Cork South Ring Road, which lists the N8 for Dublin as the route. It's only at the entrance to the tunnel that the M8 is signed. The R639 (which is the alternative route) isn't signed at all, and when it is signed, it's not marked Dublin. IMO, the OP has identified a weakness in our signage scheme and is not the first to have done so.

ardmacha

The N53 isn't exactly weighed down with signage of any description. But a route confirmation sign or directional sign at a junction might indicate Dublin (M1) as well as Dundalk, since you strictly speaking don't enter Dundalk to get to Dublin. Indeed the N53 no longer goes to Dundalk.

Also on the likes on the M1 the M50 could be destination on route confirmation signs

something like

Airport 10
M50 12
Dublin 17

niloc1951

As the OP says there are numerous weaknesses in our signage in this country.
Elsewhere in Europe the choice between motorway and other routes between towns and cities is always clearly signed. this enables drivers to choose which type of road they wish to use to reach their destination.
Also access routes from 'other' roads to motorways are regularly signposted.

I think we are very poorly served by the NRA, perhaps if relevant staff were required to drive at least 2,000 kms per year in Europe and write a quality report containing at least five things they observed which could be implementer here to improve our lot, then we might start closing the gap in the standards of signage and road design/maintenance between, for example France or Germany, and here. Failure to to so should be grounds for dismissal on the grounds of having a closed mind or blindness :D

Seasoft

Another example of lack of signage to a motorway.

Templemore Roundabout, Roscrea was always a popular stopping off place on the old N7, what with a MacD's and a good garage/shop/services.

Now, it's only 3Km from the official Roscrea exit, No. 22, of the M7,a straight clear run on the N62, so I came off the motorway for a break and coffee a few times lately.

Couldn't help noticing that signs on the roundabout do not show directions to the M7. They actually show directions to Limerick as the old N7. If you took that road you'd travel to Moneygall beforre meeting the M7, or if going to Dublin, you'd go to Borris-in-Ossery.

Who is responsible for updating these signs, NRA or County council? Whoever it is needs to get on the job.

spacetweek

Tremelo wrote: »

I completely see where the OP is coming from. If you were to go to Dublin from West Cork or east Kerry, you'd probably do so via the Cork South Ring Road, which lists the N8 for Dublin as the route. It's only at the entrance to the tunnel that the M8 is signed. The R639 (which is the alternative route) isn't signed at all, and when it is signed, it's not marked Dublin. IMO, the OP has identified a weakness in our signage scheme and is not the first to have done so.

Tremelo, the M8 is not signed until then because the N8 and M8 are the same route. It is sufficient to sign only the one that traffic is currently on - and this is the N8 until you get to the tunnel. Traffic from west Cork is meant to follow "Route 8" and this might be either N8 or M8 depending on the section. There is no need to mention both on signage unless a changeover is occurring.

As for Dublin not being signed on the R639 (old N8), that is the whole point of downgrading - the route is no longer a trunk route and is only for local traffic. Therefore I would expect to see Glanmire, Fermoy etc. signposted but not Dublin. This is as expected.

Seasoft wrote: »

Another example of lack of signage to a motorway.
...
Who is responsible for updating these signs, NRA or County council? Whoever it is needs to get on the job.

I'm with you on this. What you're referring to here is slowness on the part of the council. In Ireland, motorways are built by a central national agency but town signage is the responsibility of the council. The two should synch up - town signage being updated preferably the same day the motorway opens - but they don't. What simply happens is that when the Mway opens, the council add a plan to update signage to their project list and get around to it at some stage. They have to budget for it (not receiving extra money for this) and it simply joins a work queue. In some counties, years pass before this work is done. The Ashford-Rathnew bypass opened in 2005 but I recall as late as 2008 the old road through Ashford was still referring to itself as N11 *. This type of thing needs to be sorted.

* I see on Streetview that this has been amended now.

corktina

Jack Lynch tunnel is neither M8 or N8 afaik...its N25 i think. N8 is old road through Tivoli

veryangryman

betistuc wrote: »

Interesting MYOB, but my point is advance signage. If for instance I'm a learner driver and I know in advance that the N3 becomes the M3 up ahead ,I'll know to go for the R147 or whatever to stay legal. That's just one scenario.

I take your point on multisigning but even on the entire N53 there is no mention of the M1.Surely this and other motorways should be advertised more widely.

The R roads sign the nearest town reachable on the route. No L-driver or tractor needs to drive the full distance of an inter urban route hence the lack of need for signage.

NITransport

What I believe is a significant issue, is the lack of information regarding how far you are from services on the M1. Was driving back from Dublin to the North and didn't know when or were the Castlebellingham service station was. And how many km's I had to go. In GB, there are signs every 10 or so miles telling you the distance to the next service station. Ok they have just opened in the past year, but still!

ardmacha

Was driving back from Dublin to the North and didn't know when or were the Castlebellingham service station was.

Well you did probably pass a sign indicating the distance to the two services. But there could be more.

Amtmann

spacetweek wrote: »

Tremelo, the M8 is not signed until then because the N8 and M8 are the same route. It is sufficient to sign only the one that traffic is currently on - and this is the N8 until you get to the tunnel. Traffic from west Cork is meant to follow "Route 8" and this might be either N8 or M8 depending on the section. There is no need to mention both on signage unless a changeover is occurring.

I am referring to traffic on the N25 SRR heading for the tunnel and Dublin. Dublin is signed N8 on the N25 SRR, which - although technically correct - is for all intents and purposes very misleading. Anyone going from Bantry to Dublin via route 8 will never be on the non-motorway section of that route, even though the signs suggest that they will be.

As for Dublin not being signed on the R639 (old N8), that is the whole point of downgrading - the route is no longer a trunk route and is only for local traffic. Therefore I would expect to see Glanmire, Fermoy etc. signposted but not Dublin. This is as expected.

But it is the alternative route, and in my opinion anyone who wants to drive to Dublin via a non-motorway should be catered for. This will include elderly drivers, learner drivers, tourists, or people who just fancy a change. I don't think they should be expected to know that Glanmire leads to Fermoy leads to Mitchelstown leads to Cahir and so on. That's why the old trunk road is now partially signed with orange R639 patches, the orange indicating the alternative route. As ever, it has been inconsistently applied.

ardmacha

Learner drivers are a complete distraction from this debate. Learner drivers hold a permit in order to practice driving, not to drive from Cork to Dublin. To be sure tourists may want to potter around, but by definition they are not in a hurry and almost certainly not proceeding directly from Cork to Dublin.

Amtmann

None of which affects the fact that the route to Dublin is misleadingly signed on the N25 SRR.

sdanseo

MYOB wrote: »

You're alone

The road that goes to Cavan from the M50 is the N3. It does not become the M3 for a few kilometres. Hence it being signed N3.

The fact that the M3 goes to Cavan is *well* signed before the road changes status. The N3 then ceases to exist until north of Kells, the "old N3" is the R147 and no other number.

The fact that the UK signs with () is due to the fact that they are different roads. Here, M just means that it is the N road under motorway restrictions. Here, where the route changes is signed with (), which is why Cork has (M8) on road signs on the M7.

Signing Dublin in multiple directions as you're suggesting with the N2/N53 will lead to abject confusion. That's why its not done.

A change in the class of road is effectively a change in the road though. If anything, the motorway network is being underpromoted. Your explanation makes perfect sense, but I'd have it bracketed.

In the example depicted by the OP, that's exactly right. For example it should read as follows:

niloc1951

Tremelo wrote: »

.............anyone who wants to drive to Dublin via a non-motorway should be catered for. This will include elderly drivers, learner drivers, tourists, or people who just fancy a change. I don't think they should be expected to know that Glanmire leads to Fermoy leads to Mitchelstown leads to Cahir and so on.......................

I agree entirely and it is what I am used to seeing elsewhere in Europe. There ARE two direct routes between Cork and Dublin, one via tolled motorway the other via ordinary main road (a mixture of N & R bits !!!) both intercity and both should be sign posted as such.

betistuc

sdeire wrote: »

A change in the class of road is effectively a change in the road though. If anything, the motorway network is being underpromoted. Your explanation makes perfect sense, but I'd have it bracketed.

In the example depicted by the OP, that's exactly right. For example it should read as follows:

I like your illustration sdeire. This is more or less what I'm on about. Underpromotion does seem to be the problem. By the way , I've just had a reply from Sean O'Neil.

From: Sean O'Neill
Sent: 20 October 2011 11:06
To: INFO
Subject: Re: Signage


There is a short section of national primary (N) route between the M50 and the M3. In the case of the N7 at the Red Cow the distance is approximately 20km to the motorway section. It is important that drivers are aware of the route type they are travelling on as there are various restrictions applying to motorways. There is a fundamental difference to UK signage. The Uk often maintain the (A) status of the parallel non motorway route thereby having two routes with the same number but different status. In Ireland there is only a single route so N7 and M7 are the same route with M designating the motorway sections. We do use patches to indicate a close by motorway. In the case of the N2 the appropriate cross to the M1 is signed in Ardee. Many motorways are relatively new and Local Authorities responsible for the Non National signage use similar patches when resigning their roads.


Sean

niloc1951

betistuc wrote: »

From: Sean O'Neill
Sent: 20 October 2011 11:06
To: INFO
Subject: Re: Signage
..................In Ireland there is only a single route so N7 and M7 are the same route with M designating the motorway sections. ..............Sean

This is pure rubbish, as I have pointed out in a previous post there IS a continuous route between Cork and Dublin other than the M8/M7. I traveled it many times up to 1983 and the last time I looked it's still in existence.

"The Uk often maintain the (A) status of the parallel non motorway route thereby having two routes with the same number but different status" as is also the practice in Europe where it is not uncommon to have a combination of different road classes the equivalent of our N & R to completer the route.
But as usual we have to paddle our canoe in a different direction to everyone eles, as the old saying goes 'everyone is out of step except my Paddy' or perhaps, there are none so blind as those who do not wish to see.

ardmacha

But as usual we have to paddle our canoe in a different direction to everyone eles, as the old saying goes 'everyone is out of step except my Paddy' or perhaps, there are none so blind as those who do not wish to see.

I think the Irish system makes a great deal of sense, with continuous route numbers, while the UK one is a mess. There are many countries who use the route number system, it is craven to say that we are out of step or blind just because we do not do the same as the UK.

Parallel main routes only make sense where there are tolls (some European countries) or in relatively densely populated areas where you do not wish to clutter the motorway with local traffic (UK). The likes of the M8 has very little traffic and so there is no particular need to encourage traffic to use a parallel route.

There are signposting problems here, but so few people that wish to go from Dublin to Cork on the old road that it is not worth cluttering up signs to cater for them.

niloc1951

I think the Irish system makes a great deal of sense, with continuous route numbers, while the UK one is a mess. There are many countries who use the route number system, it is craven to say that we are out of step or blind just because we do not do the same as the UK.

Not just the UK, on mainland Europe are alternative routes signed city to city are common also. And, I am by no means suggesting we follow UK practice just for the sake of it. And your first sentence above is a direct contradiction of what Sean O'Neill said in his reply to betistuc.

Parallel main routes only make sense where there are tolls (some European countries) or in relatively densely populated areas where you do not wish to clutter the motorway with local traffic (UK). The likes of the M8 has very little traffic and so there is no particular need to encourage traffic to use a parallel route.

There are three tolls between Cork and Dublin and the point is not about 'encouraging' traffic to the non motorway routes, it's about providing adequate signage for that which chooses such routes.

There are signposting here, but so few people that wish to go from Dublin to Cork on the old road that it is not worth cluttering up signs to cater for them.

Other countries seem to cope.

ardmacha

Former N10, France. The signs do not say "Paris".

corktina

well thast on the same logic as stopping trains for London from Reading give their destination as "Ealing Broadway" whereas they do in fact run to Paddington. It's to stop people getting confused and taking the inferior road by mistake. The "old" route should be marked as "non-motorway traffic" perhaps.

niloc1951

ardmacha wrote: »

Former N10, France. The signs do not say "Paris".

Châtellerault is a town between the cities of Poitiers and Tours. As can be seen for the attached 'streetview' in Poitiers the next city on the route N10/N910 is signed.
City to city routes are always separably signed both motorway and non-motorway in France, I know as I have driven many thousands of kilometers there in recent years, most recent was a trip of over 2,000kms of mostly non-motorway routes earlier this year.

Poitiers N910

niloc1951

corktina wrote: »

well thast on the same logic as stopping trains for London from Reading give their destination as "Ealing Broadway" whereas they do in fact run to Paddington. It's to stop people getting confused and taking the inferior road by mistake. The "old" route should be marked as "non-motorway traffic" perhaps.

The non-motorway routes, be they parallel 'old routes' or otherwise, are signed in green, the motorway ones in blue. Tolled route options are marked 'Péage'.

Merch

ardmacha wrote: »

Learner drivers are a complete distraction from this debate. Learner drivers hold a permit in order to practice driving, not to drive from Cork to Dublin. To be sure tourists may want to potter around, but by definition they are not in a hurry and almost certainly not proceeding directly from Cork to Dublin.

I agree with the OP, but its an extension of poor signage everywhere, we have lots of signs but not displaying information in as useful a way as possible , (ie not far enough in advance or in a way that creates confusion for a driver that is unfamilair with a route). I have seen signs blocking other signs and traffic lights (why not use the same pole), signs low down blocking the view of oncoming traffic, signs not far enough in advance of motorway junctions or where they dont line up with the lanes from a distance as the road has kinked and from further back looks like you are in the necessary lane. It's too late to start looking at the signs when the turns are on top of you, you need to be paying attention to the road and the other users that in some cases are careering across lanes to correct their position (fault of signage). I even put a post in here previously about no signs approaching a roundabout (the bloody sign was to the left of the roundabout, but only visible after turning onto it, its too late to pay attention to signs at that stage, you need to know where you are going, and paying attention to what other vehicles/pedestrians cyclists are doing and where they are around you.

By the definition they are tourists they are not trying to get somewhere in a specific timeframe?? I'm not sure how you can know that, I'm sure its inaccurate, unless you have surveyed a good sample of tourists.
I have as a tourist driven in the US, I wanted to get from A-B, I didnt want to potter all around the place, getting lost up every back road, I was able to make my way mostly without a map because the signage on the highways I travelled on was useful, as I have found in the UK, never driven on the continent but i am certain it cant be like here.

Problem with Irish road signs, to mention a few.
Too many not displaying accurate information in time
Looks like they were laid out by people that know the locality, no concern for advance notice for people that are unfamiliar with the road layout or junctions.

ardmacha

By the definition they are tourists they are not trying to get somewhere in a specific timeframe?? I'm not sure how you can know that, I'm sure its inaccurate, unless you have surveyed a good sample of tourists.

I have no doubt that tourists wish clear signage to their destinations. However, a tourist wishing to go from Dublin to Cork in a hurry will use the motorway.

Your other observations on signage are spot on and doing the simple things right would benefit tourists.

Merch

No doubt some tourists dont mind pottering around and see where it takes them, up bohereens and all

I have just seen some horrendous signage here in Ireland, especially signs blocking other signs, visibility and in some rarer cases traffic lights.
Even though I have been on it quite a few times and I consider myself a reasonably good driver (open to self criticism or other criticism), I actually would rather avoid the Red Cow exit, heading towards town (not so bad coming from town and of course its ok if you know it, but thats my point, it shouldnt be the case). I should drive it back and forth a few times to familiarise myself, but the idea to me is that anyone should be able to approach a junction and it should be obvious where to go when you want to go there first time. The first time i approached that, I was thinking, this is not good, I havent been on it in a while but I think the road jinks to the right giving a skewed view of the signage, anyway its one of many.
No standard seems to be applied? well no consistent one anyway

niloc1951

ardmacha wrote: »

.................... tourist wishing to go from Dublin to Cork in a hurry will use the motorway. ...............

I too have on occasions hurried along a motorway when on holidays, but that is not 'touring' which is the main object of a motoring holiday. When touring to enjoy the sights and culture of a country you need to stay off the motorways, after all one strip of tarmac between embankments is the same as any other, no matter what the country, apart from the quality of signage.
Except probably Italy where some motorways have a surface worse than worst of some of out 'R' roads :eek:.

niloc1951

Merch wrote: »

I agree with the OP, but its an extension of poor signage everywhere, we have lots of signs but not displaying information in as useful a way as possible , (ie not far enough in advance or in a way that creates confusion for a driver that is unfamilair with a route). I have seen signs blocking other signs and traffic lights (why not use the same pole), signs low down blocking the view of oncoming traffic, signs not far enough in advance of motorway junctions or where they dont line up with the lanes from a distance as the road has kinked and from further back looks like you are in the necessary lane. It's too late to start looking at the signs when the turns are on top of you, you need to be paying attention to the road and the other users that in some cases are careering across lanes to correct their position (fault of signage). I even put a post in here previously about no signs approaching a roundabout (the bloody sign was to the left of the roundabout, but only visible after turning onto it, its too late to pay attention to signs at that stage, you need to know where you are going, and paying attention to what other vehicles/pedestrians cyclists are doing and where they are around you.

By the definition they are tourists they are not trying to get somewhere in a specific timeframe?? I'm not sure how you can know that, I'm sure its inaccurate, unless you have surveyed a good sample of tourists.
I have as a tourist driven in the US, I wanted to get from A-B, I didnt want to potter all around the place, getting lost up every back road, I was able to make my way mostly without a map because the signage on the highways I travelled on was useful, as I have found in the UK, never driven on the continent but i am certain it cant be like here.

Problem with Irish road signs, to mention a few.
Too many not displaying accurate information in time
Looks like they were laid out by people that know the locality, no concern for advance notice for people that are unfamiliar with the road layout or junctions.

Examples HERE

Merch

niloc1951 wrote: »

Examples HERE

I'm going to have to start taking pictures, have been threatening to get an in car camera, something I can get stills from the footage?

niloc1951

Merch wrote: »

I'm going to have to start taking pictures, have been threatening to get an in car camera, something I can get stills from the footage?

I have used Google Streetview, even though the views are probably over two years old the lethargy of those who put the signs up and those responsible for ensuring the quality of said signage means its still in place .

marmurr1916

I think that advanced signange, in appropriate locations, should show Nx (Mx) for routes that are part motorway, part non-motorway.

In addition, I don't see why something like 'Non-motorway traffic use Rxxx' can't be used at appropriate locations near motorways to show that there's an alternative route.

veryangryman

marmurr1916 wrote: »

I think that advanced signange, in appropriate locations, should show Nx (Mx) for routes that are part motorway, part non-motorway.

In addition, I don't see why something like 'Non-motorway traffic use Rxxx' can't be used at appropriate locations near motorways to show that there's an alternative route.

They do - those "Slí Eile (alternative route)" brown signs are in place at alot of locations along M6/M4. Of course they dont mention "non-motorway traffic" but still youd imagine some would "get it".

That said, you have to be on the motorway you want to avoid in the first place to see such signs.

L1011

Those brown signs are, generally, only used for tolled sections of motorway and not the extensive untolled sections.

The ones on the M4/6 corridor only provide the waypoints for Kilcock to Kinnegad and Ballinasloe to Loughrea