Abolish Seanad

Harry Angstrom

Lisa2011 wrote: »

I want to see the Seanad reformed. If its abolished I truly believe it gives the Government far too much power to do what it wants.

It can be reformed. I dont believe Enda when he says it cant. The 20m savings is not definite. They cant predict that. I hope its defeated.

Do you honestly think that Enda Kenny will create a rod for his own back by reforming The Seanad?

COYW

seligehgit wrote: »

Fingers crossed the Seanad is abolished, low turnout may swing the vote against the proposal.The wording of the 2 ballot papers was absolutely awful, the government would deserve to lose the referenda on the basis of that alone.

Thought it was just me. It was dreadful. I thought I had gone temporarily dopey when I read them first. Had to read it two or three times. Be great if a 'No' vote was returned in my opinion, as the 'Yes' parties need a wake up call but I will be surprised if it happens. Turn out was dreadful.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

seligehgit wrote: »

Fingers crossed the Seanad is abolished,QUOTE]
Early tallies say that the Seanad may be saved.

COYW

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

seligehgit wrote: »

Fingers crossed the Seanad is abolished

Early tallies say that the Seanad may be saved.

Well, it is going to be seriously close. Looks like it may be rejected as Dublin and Leinster are both rejecting it with 55% of the vote, on current indications.

spank_inferno

seligehgit wrote: »

Fingers crossed the Seanad is abolished, low turnout may swing the vote against the proposal.The wording of the 2 ballot papers was absolutely awful, the government would deserve to lose the referenda on the basis of that alone.

Not just me then.

I read the ballot paper twice just to be sure.
Doesnt help that priority is given to Irish over English...... Gaeilge is alien to me.

The wife put a 'tick' mark in the 'yes' box.
Again, confusing answering 'yes' with a mark usually deemed a negative.

PRAF

spank_inferno wrote: »

Not just me then.

I read the ballot paper twice just to be sure.
Doesnt help that priority is given to Irish over English...... Gaeilge is alien to me.

The wife put a 'tick' mark in the 'yes' box.
Again, confusing answering 'yes' with a mark usually deemed a negative.

Bring back electronic voting!

Harry Angstrom

Do you want to abolish The Seanad? Yes ... No

Please circle your choice.

There's a lot to be said for plain English.

Lisa2011

I too dont like the fact that priority is given to English either but I voted no to both. I want us to elect the senators not Enda. If its abolished in time people will be complaining that they should have voted no. It will be their own fault.

Its going to result in 54 amendments to our constitution and a small minority will have made that possible. Seems wrong. Australia fine people for not voting and it should be done here.

The Dagda

Alan_H_1991 wrote: »

Can someone please give me some valid reasons why the Seanad should and should not be dissolved

just bullet points

only elaborate on one or two of your points if you can

thanks

Reasons to abolish the Seanad.

1. There's too many politicians in this country.

3. Abolishing the Seanad will get rid of quite a few of them quickly.

3. Donie Cassidy.

oscarBravo

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Do you want to abolish The Seanad? Yes ... No

Please circle your choice.

There's a lot to be said for plain English.

I really, really detest this constant pressure to dumb everything down way below the lowest common denominator.

It may be that the effect of what we were voting on yesterday was ultimately whether or not to abolish the Seanad, but the actual proposition being voted on was whether or not to give the government permission to amend the constitution. That was the question on the ballot paper, and it was the only question that legally could have been on the ballot paper.

Mr Cumulonimbus

oscarBravo wrote: »

I really, really detest this constant pressure to dumb everything down way below the lowest common denominator.

Why is Harry Angstrom's supposed choice of wording "way below the lowest common denominator"? If it avoids voter confusion, let it happen.

oscarBravo

Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »

Why is Harry Angstrom's supposed choice of wording "way below the lowest common denominator"? If it avoids voter confusion, let it happen.

You could always try reading the rest of my post.

Banjo String

Looks like two fingers given to the govt.

The senators that campaigned for a yes vote will presumably do the honorable thing now, and resign their seats.

Mr Cumulonimbus

oscarBravo wrote: »

You could always try reading the rest of my post.

I did. You would agree that levels of voter confusion should be reduced to as low a level as possible?

My name is URL

Banjo String wrote: »

Looks like two fingers given to the govt.

The senators that campaigned for a yes vote will presumably do the honorable thing now, and resign their seats.

HA!

oscarBravo

Mr Cumulonimbus wrote: »

I did.

OK, you just ignored it. Fair enough.

You would agree that levels of voter confusion should be reduced to as low a level as possible?

Yes. Unfortunately, "as low as possible" precludes asking people a question other than what they're actually voting on.

Sir Oxman

Dublin & most of Leinster will carry the No.

Oh what will the handlers Enda do now?

tayto lover

Looks like a bloody nose for Enda.

Harry Angstrom

Sir Oxman wrote: »

Dublin & most of Leinster will carry the No.

Oh what will the handlers Enda do now?

For the life of me, I can't understand why FG tolerate this idiot as Taoiseach. They had their chance to get rid of him before the last election and they blew it. His retort to Micheal Martin that he wouldn't want to embarrass him if they had a televised Seanad debate was the sort of thing you'd hear in a school playground amongst a bunch of 8 year olds.

Amirani

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

For the life of me, I can't understand why FG tolerate this idiot as Taoiseach. They had their chance to get rid of him before the last election and they blew it. His retort to Micheal Martin that he wouldn't want to embarrass him if they had a televised Seanad debate was the sort of thing you'd hear in a school playground amongst a bunch of 8 year olds.

You can throw in his comment too about how he won't bother reforming the Seanad, regardless of whether a no vote passes.

View

Lisa2011 wrote: »

I too dont like the fact that priority is given to English either but I voted no to both. I want us to elect the senators not Enda. If its abolished in time people will be complaining that they should have voted no. It will be their own fault.

You think so?

Suppose for the sake of argument we abolished the Seanad 20 years ago. Who would today vote for its re-introduction in its current form? How many would vote to re-introduce it in any form? And, if so, which form would we want it to have?

Banjo String

NiallSparky wrote: »

You can throw in his comment too about how he won't bother reforming the Seanad, regardless of whether a no vote passes.

I think he will have to now.

I look forward to seeing his not so smug head on the tv now, telling us we're dopes for not swallowing his lies.

View

NiallSparky wrote: »

You can throw in his comment too about how he won't bother reforming the Seanad, regardless of whether a no vote passes.

The people voted against reform it seems. Therefore that's what they'll get.

Remember as soon as you put a specific reform idea on the table it is unlikely to survive as a) a lot of people don't want a Seanad, and, b) those that do will split as soon as the specific proposal is made - e.g. A "Chamber of the Regions" to counter-balance Dublin? Oops, Dublin hates it and the surrounding region rows in behind it...

Sierra Oscar

A spectacular defeat for the government, and a major embarrassment to the Sinn Féin leadership who decided to go against the opinion of their grassroots - showing that they will sell themselves out and enter government with FG when the time comes.

Fianna Fáil got this one right - anyone who is any bit connect to their local communities and those around them would know that reform is what people want, not some token gestures that feign reform.

Mr Cumulonimbus

oscarBravo wrote: »

OK, you just ignored it. Fair enough.

Excuse me?

Mr.Micro

With such a pathetic turnout, if the NO vote is carried it will be against the opinion polls that suggested the YES was comfortably going to win. So no point in people moaning then, if the Seanad is kept, with all its faults and corpulent members.

tayto lover

H.J Simpson wrote: »

I can't believe how dumb you paddies are, you had the chance of a lifetime to abolish the waste of space seanad eireann but instead you voted to keep it, just the way it is. Is it the fluoride in the tap water that has made you paddies so dumb ?

We were never going to gain from abolishing the Seanad anyway.
The money saved would have been diverted into the Dail for another bunch of idiots to waste.

Seaneh

View wrote: »

The people voted against reform it seems.

Well, that's plain nonsense.
The people weren't offered reform or non-reform.

Seaneh

H.J Simpson wrote: »

I can't believe how dumb you paddies are, you had the chance of a lifetime to abolish the waste of space seanad eireann but instead you voted to keep it, just the way it is. Is it the fluoride in the tap water that has made you paddies so dumb ?

Could be worse, we could live in a state that still has a monarchy.

Do you lot still have wizards and dragons as well?
What about faeries and witches?

Sierra Oscar

View wrote: »

The people voted against reform it seems.

Well that's not what the government seems to think. Michael Ring has just conceded defeat and stated that it is clear people are demanding Seanad reform, and that is what now must be done.

Why the government didn't realise that before now is beyond me.

Busted Flat.

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Well that's not what the government seems to think. Michael Ring has just conceded defeat and stated that it is clear people are demanding Seanad reform, and that is what now must be done.

Why the government didn't realise that before now is beyond me.

Arrogance, plain and simple, from taking office on day one.

My name is URL

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

A spectacular defeat for the government, and a major embarrassment to the Sinn Féin leadership who decided to go against the opinion of their grassroots - showing that they will sell themselves out and enter government with FG when the time comes.

Fianna Fáil got this one right - anyone who is any bit connect to their local communities and those around them would know that reform is what people want, not some token gestures that feign reform.

SF have been calling for the Seanad to be abolished for years though. I don't think they just tacked their support to the no side as a populist move.

Anyway, I really don't think that people for the most part voted along party lines in this referendum. It's not a victory for FF despite what they seem to think.

Banjo String

Senator calls on Kenny to resign over his €20m fcuk up.


http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/senator-calls-on-taoiseach-to-resign-over-20m-ego-trip-1.1551731

Harry Angstrom

Daragh O'Brien made an interesting suggestion on the radio an hour ago. He suggested that, as well as carrying out major reform, the Seanad elections should be held on the same day as a general election, which would stop those who lose their Dail seats from getting a consolation prize in the Seanad. A bit ironic, seeing as he himself took a Seanad seat after losing his Dail seat in 2007. Not much chance of it happening though.

tayto lover

Banjo String wrote: »

Senator calls on Kenny to resign over his €20m fcuk up.


http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/senator-calls-on-taoiseach-to-resign-over-20m-ego-trip-1.1551731

So arrogant he wouldn't even debate his own proposal.

seamus

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Daragh O'Brien made an interesting suggestion on the radio an hour ago. He suggested that, as well as carrying out major reform, the Seanad elections should be held on the same day as a general election, which would stop those who lose their Dail seats from getting a consolation prize in the Seanad. A bit ironic, seeing as he himself took a Seanad seat after losing his Dail seat in 2007. Not much chance of it happening though.

Presuming this fails, apparently a TD or Senator (I forget who) has a substantial Seanad reform bill which he is going to put to the Dáil on Monday. Part of that bill includes this holding of both elections on the same day and preventing people from running in both ballots. Which sounds ridiculously reasonable, so it will probably be ignored.

aloyisious

Maybe I'm being cynical and non-trusting (or think they are) but I got to thinking last night that the "abolitionists" and the "non-abolitionists" in Leinster House got all-cunning and put out ideas they knew joe soap would reject, so's they could (Pontius-like) wash their hands and say to us "well, YIOU decided"' Enda could also say (if there was a "yes" to abolish) "I got it right".

Personally, I feel the only way Joe Soap could have won would have been to leave the "abolish" ballot papers 100% blank, though I'm not sure how that result would be declared by the adjudicator: rejection or void.

CiaranIRL

The figures speak for themselves -

The turnout currently is 38.5%. It has to be assumed that the other 61.5% couldn't be bothered to vote OR are happy with the current set-up.

The YES vote running at 49% (or 18.9% of the electorate)
The NO vote is running at 51% (or 19.6% of the electorate)

So, over 81% of the electorate don't want any change and are happy with the current arrangement. Remember, the option for reform wasn't on the table.

Gawd help us... The majority of my fellow Dub are muppets..

spank_inferno

80% to retain the status quo.

It wont be for another generation at least to get the question again.

Mabey then at least 1/4 of us would like to see some change.

Sir Oxman

My name is URL wrote: »

SF have been calling for the Seanad to be abolished for years though. I don't think they just tacked their support to the no side as a populist move.

Anyway, I really don't think that people for the most part voted along party lines in this referendum. It's not a victory for FF despite what they seem to think.

IMO, that is certain.

Manach

I had thought a fundamental attribute of tables is the ability to be set easily. The No vote rejects the consolidation of power into the fused execute/legislative branch and also shows non-Party actors that came out to campaign for a meaningful change instead the government's change for Enda's sake change.

Pete_Cavan

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

For the life of me, I can't understand why FG tolerate this idiot as Taoiseach. They had their chance to get rid of him before the last election and they blew it. His retort to Micheal Martin that he wouldn't want to embarrass him if they had a televised Seanad debate was the sort of thing you'd hear in a school playground amongst a bunch of 8 year olds.

I am not a fan of Enda but I am glad he rejected Martins invitation to drag a vote on changing our Constitution down to a stupid populatity contest for his own benefit. Anyone who determines how to vote on any issue which will have far reaching consequences to our country for a long time to come based on one indiviual politician needs their head examined. Any change made on this issue is likely to remain for a very long time (likely over 100 years) yet Enda may not be Taoiseach after the next General Election. People should vote for changes to the Constitution based on the merits of the proposed change as the change will outlast any of todays politicians. I think it is very disrespectful to allow a referendum to be hijacked for political point scoring and very short sighted to vote based on personal opinions of individuals.

seamus

aloyisious wrote: »

Maybe I'm being cynical and non-trusting (or think they are) but I got to thinking last night that the "abolitionists" and the "non-abolitionists" in Leinster House got all-cunning and put out ideas they knew joe soap would reject, so's they could (Pontius-like) wash their hands and say to us "well, YIOU decided"' Enda could also say (if there was a "yes" to abolish) "I got it right".

Oh no doubt. Enda doesn't really care what way this goes. Part of his election platform was a promise for Dail and Seanad reform. Win or lose this referendum, he can say, "I tried".

Sir Oxman

CiaranIRL wrote: »

The figures speak for themselves -

The turnout currently is 38.5%. It has to be assumed that the other 61.5% couldn't be bothered to vote OR are happy with the current set-up.

The YES vote running at 49% (or 18.9% of the electorate)
The NO vote is running at 51% (or 19.6% of the electorate)

So, over 81% of the electorate don't want any change and are happy with the current arrangement. Remember, the option for reform wasn't on the table.

Gawd help us... The majority of my fellow Dub are muppets..

You see, I think the exact opposite.
Thankfully, Dublin and most of Leinster + very few other areas outside the East did not fall for this 'anything but reform' codswallop thrown to the public to enable Kenny say for once he was right - well, even on this seeming shoe-in our useless so-called leader failed.

tayto lover

seamus wrote: »

Oh no doubt. Enda doesn't really care what way this goes. Part of his election platform was a promise for Dail and Seanad reform. Win or lose this referendum, he can say, "I tried".

How do you equate abolition with reform?

BlutendeRabe

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

A spectacular defeat for the government, and a major embarrassment to the Sinn Féin leadership who decided to go against the opinion of their grassroots - showing that they will sell themselves out and enter government with FG when the time comes.

Pearse Doherty was one of the main people within the party arguing for abolition. Initially they had opposed the bill as it was being read in the Dail, stating that it should be decided by the constitutional convention.

I don't think there'll be much blowback in terms of support for the party. Low turnout and its common enough for people not to vote according to party lines in referenda.

I voted no but one side effect is that we'll have to put up with more of that irritating git McDowell.

Sir Oxman

Dublin Central - I'm thrilled by that result, 57.9% No

seamus

tayto lover wrote: »

How do you equate abolition with reform?

That's just me paraphrasing, to be fair. The actual wording of the manifesto was;

Fine Gael will cut the size of the Oireachtas by one-third by abolishing the Seanad, if the public approve in constitutional referendum

So it's a specific promise they have delivered whether or not the thing passes.

tayto lover

seamus wrote: »

That's just me paraphrasing, to be fair. The actual wording of the manifesto was;
So it's a specific promise they have delivered whether or not the thing passes.

Maybe he could save his embarrassment by now cutting the Dail by 33%.

Mr.Micro

CiaranIRL wrote: »

So, over 81% of the electorate don't want any change and are happy with the current arrangement. Remember, the option for reform wasn't on the table.

Gawd help us... The majority of my fellow Dub are muppets..

All the yes crowd left it to others to vote, believing it in the bag. The no crowd got off their a**es and voted. That's the difference here.