Abolish Seanad

Banjo String

hmmm wrote: »

When I pick up my next payslip and see the tax I'm paying, I'll think of you.

As already pointed out, you'd not have saved a bean on tax as the money was already earmarked.

There'd also be the issue of senators being forced into retirement. So a pension paid for.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

What's a lot more important is that Mullen and Bacik would be gone from our TV screens and radiowaves forever

As would Zappone,Crown,Quinn,Barrett, etc.
That would be a bad day for politics in this country!

hmmm

Banjo String wrote: »

As already pointed out, you'd not have saved a bean on tax as the money was already earmarked.

Just because it is "earmarked" doesn't mean it has to be spent. And just because the budget is x in one year, doesn't mean it has to remain the same the year after.

At least this way there was a chance of saving money. After this result, the money is absolutely gone out our pay packets and given to these windbags.

There'd also be the issue of senators being forced into retirement.

Now instead we're going to have an awful lot more Senators retirements to pay for well into the future.

H.J Simpson

Everybody who voted to keep the seanad deserve higher taxes or a cut in their welfare payment.

Pro Hoc Vice

H.J Simpson wrote: »

Everybody who voted to keep the seanad deserve higher taxes or a cut in their welfare payment.

Why only the people who voted to keep it? Do we not live in a democracy, or is it you only pay for what you agree with?

tayto lover

H.J Simpson wrote: »

Everybody who voted to keep the seanad deserve higher taxes or a cut in their welfare payment.

Is that you Enda?

Cork24

Higher taxes.

People like you need a tax on being a dump a@@ss

Read the full story, the government if this was voted in would be able to pass any law without having to go to the people of Ireland, the state will have full power no law could ever be hold up or put forward to the Irish courts,

Giving this government two much power is a bad thing

My name is URL

H.J Simpson wrote: »

Everybody who voted to keep the seanad deserve higher taxes or a cut in their welfare payment.

The rest of ye can cover the €25+ million cost for Kenny's failed ego trip :pac:

Maybe those that didn't bother their holes voting because they wrongly believed that abolition was a foregone conclusion should also fork up...

Banjo String

H.J Simpson wrote: »

Everybody who voted to keep the seanad deserve higher taxes or a cut in their welfare payment.

Very low turn out.

What about those that wanted it abolished but decided to watch coronation street instead?

They should have left the gaff.

Banjo String

hmmm wrote: »

Just because it is "earmarked" doesn't mean it has to be spent. And just because the budget is x in one year, doesn't mean it has to remain the same the year after.

Oh believe me. They'd have found something to spend it on. Silk scarves/ties. Luxury toilet roll. Christmas cards. Etc etc etc.

Spent/not spent, it was still earmarked. Meaning you'd (still) not have saved a cent in tax.

hmmm wrote: »

Now instead we're going to have an awful lot more Senators retirements to pay for well into the future.

Hopefully with reform, it can be senators the people put in by consent. Worthwhile business men and women.

Count Dooku

Cork24 wrote: »

Higher taxes.

People like you need a tax on being a dump a@@ss

Read the full story, the government if this was voted in would be able to pass any law without having to go to the people of Ireland, the state will have full power no law could ever be hold up or put forward to the Irish courts,

Giving this government two much power is a bad thing

Government elected by people, Seanad not

Cork24

At lest the Seanad could have hold a bill or allow the President to have a bill sent to the Supreme Court.

If this bill was passed

Not only was the Seanad removed also the power of the Irish president would have be removed allowing any Irish government to pass a bill which , also saw the removing of any debate that they see fit..

So for all you dumb people out there that votes yes.. This would have mean


The government could have passed a bill with no Seanad to put a hold on it no debat in the house allowed on that bill they feel fit to pass and our president would be powerless to have it moved to the Supreme Court

jimmycrackcorm

The Presidents power to refer bills to the supreme Court wouldn't have changed.

As things stand the seanad votes in keeping with the government because of the inbuilt majority. Nobody had gained by the no result except senators themselves.

The Dagda

Cork24 wrote: »

At lest the Seanad could have hold a bill or allow the President to have a bill sent to the Supreme Court.

If this bill was passed

Not only was the Seanad removed also the power of the Irish president would have be removed allowing any Irish government to pass a bill which , also saw the removing of any debate that they see fit..

So for all you dumb people out there that votes yes.. This would have mean


The government could have passed a bill with no Seanad to put a hold on it no debat in the house allowed on that bill they feel fit to pass and our president would be powerless to have it moved to the Supreme Court

Yeah and it's performed this vital role twice in it's history.

Where would we be without the Seanad!?! :rolleyes:

Pro Hoc Vice

Count Dooku wrote: »

Government elected by people, Seanad not

The government, is elected by TD's who are elected by the voting public. The Seanad is elected by councillors who are elected by the people, also by the Taoiseach, who is elected by the TD's who are elected by the people, and finally the University senators who are elected by the people who have degrees. But all elected like the goverenment by the people.

ebbsy

Dail needs to be reformed, so we do not have TD's on the piss until 5 in the morning during votes, or sexually harassing female members.

Today they have been thought a major lesson.

Dannyboy83

In the past, when I've heard the line "The Irish electorate get what they deserve, they're politically immature and uneducated etc.", I've always stood up for them and explained that it's not the Irish electorate that are the problem, it's the Irish system which is the problem

Well...looks like I'm fcuking eating my own hat tonight.

hmmm

ebbsy wrote: »

Today they have been thought a major lesson.

Who? Who have been thought a lesson? The 60 Senators on 80 grand a year and massive pensions? The Government who gets to select which of their cronies gets to be a senator?

Or is it the people who will go to work tomorrow and have to pay tax which pays for all this?

Who exactly are you talking about teaching a lesson to?

Pro Hoc Vice

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

In the past, when I've heard the line "The Irish electorate get what they deserve, they're politically immature and uneducated etc.", I've always stood up for them and explained that it's not the Irish electorate that are the problem, it's the Irish system which is the problem

Well...looks like I'm fcuking eating my own hat tonight.

So people who disagree with your view in a political issue are immature and uneducated. So because I voted no, I'm immature and uneducated. I voted No because I strongly believe in a two tier parliament. I voted no because I want two different house to vote on removing a judge or president from office. I voted no because I believe the cost of the senate is worth it even for the little power it has. I voted no because I believe that populist ideas can often be silly in the cold light of day. If I'm immature and uneducated because I voted no, I'm proud to be so.

ebbsy

hmmm wrote: »

Who? Who have been thought a lesson? The 60 Senators on 80 grand a year and massive pensions? The Government who gets to select which of their cronies gets to be a senator?

Or is it the people who will go to work tomorrow and have to pay tax which pays for all this?

Who exactly are you talking about teaching a lesson to?

D'onr know but it sounded good at the time !

_Kaiser_

Victor wrote: »

Results.

That's a very interesting map on the Abolition vote. All the urban centres/commuter belt rejected it.

martingriff

Cork24 wrote: »

At lest the Seanad could have hold a bill or allow the President to have a bill sent to the Supreme Court.

If this bill was passed

Not only was the Seanad removed also the power of the Irish president would have be removed allowing any Irish government to pass a bill which , also saw the removing of any debate that they see fit..

So for all you dumb people out there that votes yes.. This would have mean


The government could have passed a bill with no Seanad to put a hold on it no debat in the house allowed on that bill they feel fit to pass and our president would be powerless to have it moved to the Supreme Court

WHAT. Seriously you think it is because of the Seanad the President sends legislation to the Supreme Court. You need to read up of things because he can and would still be able to do that with or without the Seanad and the people saying the YES side were scaremoungaring.

raymon

Congratulations to anyone who voted no.

I voted yes but am happy to accept the result.

Looks like Fianna Fail are predictably taking the credit for the vote. Their arrogance has not gone away.

martingriff

ebbsy wrote: »

D'onr know but it sounded good at the time !

MUST THINK HARDER BEFORE VOTING (200 times)

martingriff

Cork24 wrote: »

Higher taxes.

People like you need a tax on being a dump a@@ss

Read the full story, the government if this was voted in would be able to pass any law without having to go to the people of Ireland, the state will have full power no law could ever be hold up or put forward to the Irish courts,

Giving this government two much power is a bad thing

You are so wrong there it is not even funny.

The government can pass laws now as the Seanad have no power to stop them they can propose changes and can vote against it 3 times but they can only hold it up for a max of 90 day's.

Secondly the President has to sign in a law and THIS WOULD STILL happened without the Seanad if it had been abolished.

Thirdly the President has pwers to sent laws to the Supreme Court to check its constinuality and WOULD STILL have had this power without the Seanad if it had been abolished.

martingriff

tayto lover wrote: »

Answer -- A. Check yesterday's posts.

Sorry should have read apologise

View

infosys wrote: »

The government, is elected by TD's who are elected by the voting public. The Seanad is elected by councillors who are elected by the people, also by the Taoiseach,

The Taoiseach's 11 are appointed not elected. There is no election involved in them becoming Senators and there is no
democratic means for anyone to veto a Taoiseach's choice.

Pro Hoc Vice

View wrote: »

The Taoiseach's 11 are appointed not elected. There is no election involved in them becoming Senators and there is no
democratic means for anyone to veto a Taoiseach's choice.

I never said they where, but the person who appoints them is elected to his office by the a TD's who are elected by the people. I should have been clearer the Taoiseach does not elect them but he appoints them in a democratic process.

Busted Flat.

Cut the bull s#ite, the people that won out today, and claim victory are the men women and children that have been hardest hit by this government. Making excuses about this or that and why it was lost will make no difference. Roll on the local elections. SF will have to get their act together and listen to the people that support them up till today.

hmmm

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Cut the bull s#ite, the people that won out today, and claim victory are the men women and children that have been hardest hit by this government.

Ivana Bacik, Ronan Mullen, and Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (whoever he is?)

flazio

So, realistically, when are we likely to see this reform that Fianna Fail are looking for?

Busted Flat.

hmmm wrote: »

Ivana Bacik, Ronan Mullen, and Trevor Ó Clochartaigh (whoever he is?)

I am under the impression you are not dealing with a full deck, then I might be mistaken, could you please explain.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

So happy for SF, as usual backing the wrong horse. I have to wonder how much the revelations that their leader, who shielded a paedophile who confessed to him personally, for 9 years affected the peoples faith in this most populist movement.

hmmm

Busted Flat. wrote: »

I am under the impression you are not dealing with a full deck, then I might be mistaken, could you please explain.

Who are the people who as you say "have been hit hardest by the government" get to claim victory today? I've named some senators who will certainly feel victorious. Try and keep up.

Busted Flat.

hmmm wrote: »

Who are the people who as you say "have been hit hardest by the government" get to claim victory today? I've named some senators who will certainly feel victorious. Try and keep up.

Fook the senate, it is a shot across the bow of this arrogant government.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Fook the senate, it is a shot across the bow of this arrogant government.

It was also a shot across the bows of populist "politics", not only practised by an arrogant government but also by an arrogant opposition, led by SF and in particular its Leader Gerry "protect the peodophiles" Adams.

View

infosys wrote: »

I should have been clearer the Taoiseach does not elect them but he appoints them in a democratic process.

The process isn't democratic if it has a sole foregone result. Were the Taoiseach's 11 to need Oireachtas approval it would be democratic, as it is that isn't the case.

ressem

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

... I've heard the line "The Irish electorate get what they deserve, they're politically immature and uneducated etc."...

The great thing for commentators about having 2 referendums on the same day that go opposite ways is that we have a basis to reject statements like this.

The government seemed able to convince (with very little effort) a substantial portion of the electorate that the appeals court had value, at an added cost of 3 million or so per year. That suggests that they were available to be convinced by the Seanad removal argument.

Perhaps the arguments put to the public to support a yes were considered to be unconvincing?

As for my political immaturity, I've at least read the government's proposals for the reformed Dail.
Very "streamlined" unlike the much used Denmark Parliament example which has a fixed 30 day minimum consideration time before ratification and a lot more negotiation in Parliament.

And Varadkar complaining that his department has to spend 344 man-hours in a year on work for the Seanad is the same argument used to water down the freedom of information act and ombudsman enquiries.

Banjo String

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

So happy for SF, as usual backing the wrong horse. I have to wonder how much the revelations that their leader, who shielded a paedophile who confessed to him personally, for 9 years affected the peoples faith in this most populist movement.

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

It was also a shot across the bows of populist "politics", not only practised by an arrogant government but also by an arrogant opposition, led by SF and in particular its Leader Gerry "protect the peodophiles" Adams.

The above two posts are at odds with your claims that Gerry Adams encouraged and advised his niece to confide in the police in this post.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=86809325&postcount=12

And then go on to say how disgraceful it was, anyone that would try and use Aine Adams personal ordeal as an excuse to launch a personal attack/political scoring. Here.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=86809265&postcount=10

Run with the foxes and hunt with the hound springs to mind here.

Enjoylife

Ok. So, Enda proposed over 70 Constitutional changes today, but was rebuffed by the electorate. The nation is awakening.

The next attempt to lessen our sovereignity, will probably come from the 'Contitutional Review group', which will report next March.

On the second Referendum, it will probably take a year to setup the new court, so it will be interesting to see how that develops, and which Judges are appointed to it.

We live in interesting times, given that no other Government, in the history of this state, has ever had the liathroidi to propose over seventy Constitutional changes, and judicial realignment, in just ONE DAY!

Alias G

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

In the past, when I've heard the line "The Irish electorate get what they deserve, they're politically immature and uneducated etc.", I've always stood up for them and explained that it's not the Irish electorate that are the problem, it's the Irish system which is the problem

Well...looks like I'm fcuking eating my own hat tonight.

What an arrogant statement.

Enjoylife

There is a generally held consensus, that the tipping point of a revolution, in a population, is just 10% of its electorate.

The reason for same, is that 10% is the infectious rate of dessemation of a 'new idea' or 'consciousness'.

Have we seen that critical mass yet, given that 60% are still apathetic?
I wonder, but I sense it building, nonetheless.

hmmm

Enjoylife wrote: »

I wonder, but I sense it building, nonetheless.

The electorate have just voted to retain the status quo, and worse, one of the most useless and inconsequential parts of the establishment. Where are you going thinking you're seeing an appetite for revolution.

zenno

That's good news. Now, the next time the government want us to vote on abolition of the Seanad, they can be more democratic about it and allow the people the choice to reform it.

Banjo String

hmmm wrote: »

The electorate have just voted to retain the status quo, .

Hopefully they reverse this trend in the locals so.

Enjoylife

hmmm wrote: »

The electorate have just voted to retain the status quo, and worse, one of the most useless and inconsequential parts of the establishment. Where are you going thinking you're seeing an appetite for revolution.

The polls indicated a two thirds majority, in favour of the first referendum, just two days before the vote.

Therefore, things changed. Rapid changes in either outlook, or awareness, in an electorate, intimates the use of the R word.

You don't need to be violent to be revolutionary, just ask Gandhi and Rev. Martin Luther King. You don't even need to be political. Alexander McQueen, John Lennon, and Picasso are examples.

In this context, Sen. David Norris could be cited as an example.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtube_gdata_player&v=igDPFA-3hAY&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DigDPFA-3hAY%26feature%3Dyoutube_gdata_player

donalh087

Enjoylife wrote: »

The polls indicated a two thirds majority, in favour of the first referendum, just two days before the vote.

Therefore, things changed. [/url]

Or, indeed, the polls got it wrong....

roshje

Cork24 wrote: »

At lest the Seanad could have hold a bill or allow the President to have a bill sent to the Supreme Court.

If this bill was passed

Not only was the Seanad removed also the power of the Irish president would have be removed allowing any Irish government to pass a bill which , also saw the removing of any debate that they see fit..

So for all you dumb people out there that votes yes.. This would have mean


The government could have passed a bill with no Seanad to put a hold on it no debat in the house allowed on that bill they feel fit to pass and our president would be powerless to have it moved to the Supreme Court

next you will be seeing REDS under the bed

ressem

zenno wrote: »

That's good news. Now, the next time the government want us to vote on abolishion of the Seanad, they can be more democratic about it and allow the people the choice to reform it.

Afraid not. Any change to the constitution has to be using a referendum not a multichoice preferendum.

Otherwise the government doesn't have a history of asking the public anything.
The closest we have is those people taking part in the constitutional convention that pop up a thread on boards (which is appreciated btw).

The government by way of defending legislation often quotes those independent polls as though they were an accurate reflection on public opinion.
So it's funny when both they and Paddy Power get it so badly wrong. (9/1 for a No? Someone's laughing).

roshje

infosys wrote: »

The government, is elected by TD's who are elected by the voting public. The Seanad is elected by councillors who are elected by the people, also by the Taoiseach, who is elected by the TD's who are elected by the people, and finally the University senators who are elected by the people who have degrees. But all elected like the goveenment byr the people.[/QUOTE
neither my TD nor my councillor asked me who i wanted in the Seanad so how is that democracy ? more like a dictatorship