No-Gi Divisions.

SDTimeout

I know people have different opinions on this.

I've been called a sandbagger because I intend on entering the Novice division on Saturdays Grapplepalooza. I'm a white belt who has been training 14 months.

I don't see a problem with it, my coaches don't see a problem with it, but I have a feeling if I do well in my division then all of Ireland and their dogs will have a problem with it.

So just to put it up for discussion here is my take on it. It says white belt or -1 years training. I've been told the OR -1 years training is aimed towards guys with other grappling backgrounds ie wrestling or judo. So pretty straight forward for me that I should enter novice.

Anyone disagree ?

paulmclaughlin

Nope novice sounds good for you.

Clive

SDTimeout wrote: »

Anyone disagree ?

Yes. You have more than one year of training, so you should be in the 1-3 year division in my opinion. I know guys training for ten years who are still whitebelts, they wouldn't dream of entering novice.

Look at it this way, you have been training BJJ for 14 months, why would a wrestler with no submission experience be in a category above you in a nogi BJJ competition?

cowzerp

Clive wrote: »

Yes. You have more than one year of training, so you should be in the 1-3 year division in my opinion. I know guys training for ten years who are still whitebelts, they wouldn't dream of entering novice.

What your saying is technically right on what the requirements say but in my opinion at 14 months the novice division sounds spot on, the difference between 14 months and almost 3 years is massive, at 3 years training some lads are amazing, the diffrence between 9 months and 14 months is not that massive in reality

I suppose like i said you are right but maybe the rules set out for time frames are the problem.

Niall0

If you were training two years and still a white belt which division would you enter?
I wouldnt really call it sandbagging (theres probably been alot worse in previous cometitions) but still if your training 14 months your not a novice either.
I think this kind of thing puts off beginners (people with a couple of months training) from entering competitions because they wont actually be competing with beginners.

da-bres

Who gives a crap, I personally love the opportunity to fight someone who I know is better than me. People in your division should feel the same way.

Also depends on whatever your goal is, To gain experience and fight good people try intermediate, If you feel you have a good shot at winning and your only goal is to win, do novice. IBJJF rules are like this so you and your coach can decide.

Barry.Oglesby

guys this is a BJJ tournament, so BJJ belts are used unless you want to move up a division. It's your call.

In 2012, any tournament that uses IBJJF rules will be run by belt. This is the last experience method I'll use. It's far too hard to police. Some guys seem to add up their total time on the mat

theboxingclinic

There will be guys in the novice section training 4 or 5 months, u have been training 14 months same as myself in grappling. I wouldn't feel right competing against somebody grappling a few short months. I might get smashed by some blue belt in the inter division but I would learn from it rather then compete against beginners.
Why have rules if people do not follow them!!

theboxingclinic

Do the rules not stare 1 to 3 years training or blue belt?

monkey8

With 14 months training you are not a beginner any more.
I know two guys who have entered with 3 months training. They are beginners.
you learn more in defeat than you do in victory so don't be afraid to man up and step up to the next level.

brianb10

It would be more understandable if it was your first tournament but you have competed more than once already.

Doug Cartel

At 14 months I'd say it's up to yourself.

What's your previous competition like? If you've cleaned up in previous beginner divisions it's probably time to move on.

pablohoney87

The division description is more of a guideline. As barry said its gonna be done by belts like all IBBF ruled competitions (meaning I might have to take a step down in competition)
If you believe you're just gonna walk into the Intermediate and just get destroyed in a couple minutes then fair enough stick with novice. If you genuinely believe you can give some of the intermediate division a good fight step up. It'll be more rewarding and a better experience and you'll have more fun at the end of the day thats what its really all about

Barry.Oglesby

It's really not that big of a deal.

nino1

SDTimeout wrote: »

I know people have different opinions on this.

I've been called a sandbagger because I intend on entering the Novice division on Saturdays Grapplepalooza. I'm a white belt who has been training 14 months.

I don't see a problem with it, my coaches don't see a problem with it, but I have a feeling if I do well in my division then all of Ireland and their dogs will have a problem with it.

So just to put it up for discussion here is my take on it. It says white belt or -1 years training. I've been told the OR -1 years training is aimed towards guys with other grappling backgrounds ie wrestling or judo. So pretty straight forward for me that I should enter novice.

Anyone disagree ?

at 14 months i don't think its that big a deal but since you've brought it up i think you're putting yourself under pressure as people will be waiting to see if you have the guts to step up.

SDTimeout

The last thing I care about proving to guys from the internet who I meet sporadically about having the guts to face guys who might smash me. I do BJJ because I love it, not because I'm trying to be an Alphamale.

See you all on Saturday!

da-bres

Some benders on this forum, best of luck Andrew its all fun at the end of the day!

theboxingclinic

its a big deal to guys driving 3 hours to the comp who only have a few months training and end up getting tapped after a minute and ruins their confidence.
after the last no gi comp there were a lot of complaints that sand bagging was going on, if the rules are adhered to it cuts this out.
its not about manning up, its about enetering the cateogory that suits the length of time you have been training and giving novices a decent chance in their section.
im sure if andrew had been destroyed in his first bjj comp by a guy that was training a lot longer then him we would hear about it.

chuckjits

Just my two cents, I too have been training for approx 14 months and I've no plans to compete in the immediate future (did a couple a good while ago). But I would have presumed I would have been in the beginner section still. So if your still a white belt and feel it's still going to be competitive i.e your not going to wipe the floor with everybody. Why shouldn't you compete there. Best of Luck anyway.

Liam_B

fellas should just stop moaning and be thankful theres comps and people n the divisions! Tis hard enough to promote the sport without all the "he should be this and he should be that".

F**k the grinders....do your own thing,,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7z_ztMxBgk

theboxingclinic

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=71027717

heres a link to the giving out that went on after the last comp. a set of rules that are abided by would stop this from happening, not a guide line.
it would be the fairest way.
or as barry said for the next comp it will go by belt, then there is no grey area, its black or white, or purple or blue or brown actually.

crosdad

only one way to solve this................. advanced division

Chris89

its a big deal to guys driving 3 hours to the comp who only have a few months training and end up getting tapped after a minute and ruins their confidence.

I think that if you are paying money to compete, you should expect to compete. If you are worried about paying money to be 'tapped out' in your first or second match by someone with a years more experience than you then you are in it for all the wrong reasons.

I know i wouldnt be expecting to win a gold medal after only 3 months training in any sport.

Niall0

Chris89 wrote: »

I think that if you are paying money to compete, you should expect to compete. If you are worried about paying money to be 'tapped out' in your first or second match by someone with a years more experience than you then you are in it for all the wrong reasons.

I know i wouldnt be expecting to win a gold medal after only 3 months training in any sport.

Couldnt you say the same thing about people avoiding the intermediate division?.

Chris89

Niall0 wrote: »

Couldnt you say the same thing about people avoiding the intermediate division?.

You can say whatever you want, I think it can be frustrating for people in the advanced division if its the same 2/3 guys every competition. Other than that there doesnt seem to be any shortage of competitors in the beginners and intermediate from what i've seen.

Barry.Oglesby

This had want to have been some amazing two months extra training you've done Andrew.

There are, and will continue to be, grey areas when it comes to nogi. Sure there are grey areas in Gi as well with lads staying at white/blue/whatever for long after they're due to move up.

In short, if you worry about this, then you're going to spend a long time worrying. It'll all be cleared up next year when I WON'T have this sort of experience category and then you'll all be bitching because your white belt beginner training 3 months comes up against the white belt with 10 years wrestling or judo.

Train, compete, win, lose. The odds are never always stacked against you and they're never always stacked in your favour. Yes we want to match evenly but without means testing every competitor that will never happen.

I could have had a check list:
1) how many years BJJ
2) how many years Judo/Wrestling/Sambo
3) how fit are you on a scale of 1-10
4) how strong are you, like what can you bench press?
and so on. Many things make up a match.

theboxingclinic

Niall0 wrote: »

Chris89 wrote: »

I think that if you are paying money to compete, you should expect to compete. If you are worried about paying money to be 'tapped out' in your first or second match by someone with a years more experience than you then you are in it for all the wrong reasons.

I know i wouldnt be expecting to win a gold medal after only 3 months training in any sport.

Couldnt you say the same thing about people avoiding the intermediate division?.

I dont think i mentioned Money anywhere. The concern is not about them winning gold, it's about them competing against people of similar level and training time.
I beleive u had a similar concern after the no gi cup

Chris89

theboxingclinic wrote: »

I dont think i mentioned Money anywhere. The concern is not about them winning gold, it's about them competing against people of similar level and training time.
I beleive u had a similar concern after the no gi cup

I wasnt saying you mentioned money either, sorry.

If i remember correctly, my issue was that I had to fight Artur Piotrowski, who I had already fought 2-3 times, he beat me convincingly and I think that was my only fight on the day. I also 'won' a bronze medal.

The point i was trying to make was that its a shame that all one needs to do to come 3rd in an advanced division in a grappling tournament in Ireland, is show up.

I dont think thats a similar concern at all!:)

theboxingclinic

More similar then you know, my division is shaping up to be the exact same with 3 entries, 1 of whom a team mate that I roll with about 4 times a week.

Chris89 wrote: »

theboxingclinic wrote: »

I dont think i mentioned Money anywhere. The concern is not about them winning gold, it's about them competing against people of similar level and training time.
I beleive u had a similar concern after the no gi cup

I wasnt saying you mentioned money either, sorry.

If i remember correctly, my issue was that I had to fight Artur Piotrowski, who I had already fought 2-3 times, he beat me convincingly and I think that was my only fight on the day. I also 'won' a bronze medal.

The point i was trying to make was that its a shame that all one needs to do to come 3rd in an advanced division in a grappling tournament in Ireland, is show up.

I dont think thats a similar concern at all!:)

Niall0

Chris89 wrote: »

I wasnt saying you mentioned money either, sorry.

If i remember correctly, my issue was that I had to fight Artur Piotrowski, who I had already fought 2-3 times, he beat me convincingly and I think that was my only fight on the day. I also 'won' a bronze medal.

The point i was trying to make was that its a shame that all one needs to do to come 3rd in an advanced division in a grappling tournament in Ireland, is show up.

I dont think thats a similar concern at all!:)

There is currently three people in my division, intermedite 67.5kg one of whom i train with, if no one else signs up tonight all i have to do is turn up and i get a bronze medal. Thats the reason id like to see more people go into intermediate divisions if they have the experience, i dont really have a problem with Andrew competing in the novice division if he feels he is at that level, as Barry said its only 2 months.

I dont think any responsibility should fall on the organiser either, they have enough crap to worry about. At the end of the day its up to the individual to pick the correct level to compete at and i hope no one is picking below their level to get a few wins and i hope a few more people sign up to my division tonight :pac:.

theboxingclinic

Niall summed it up perfectly

bjj-fighter

Niall0 wrote: »

i hope a few more people sign up to my division tonight :pac:.

I hope so too, or else it'll just be us 3! Good luck anyway.

lukeyjudo

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I could have had a check list:
1) how many years BJJ
2) how many years Judo/Wrestling/Sambo
3) how fit are you on a scale of 1-10
4) how strong are you, like what can you bench press?
and so on. Many things make up a match.

1) how many years BJJ = 2.8...?
2) how many years Judo/Wrestling/ = +15
3) how fit are you on a scale of 1-10 = -3
4) how strong are you, like what can you bench press? = PB of two crates of Guinness

I like this questionarre! It's like Top Trumps!!

bjj-fighter

Sorry Niall0 and theboxingclinic, I moved up a weightclass. Looks like just you two guys! Unless Barry updates the list tonight.

CIARAN_BOYLE

I don't do BJJ but in my opinion if you win your category and aren't in advanced you are in a level too low. Unfortunately you can't figure that out before the competition.

Chris89

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I don't do BJJ but in my opinion if you win your category and aren't in advanced you are in a level too low. Unfortunately you can't figure that out before the competition.

So nobody should be allowed win? nice.

Barry.Oglesby

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I don't do BJJ but in my opinion...

Stopped reading

K.Byrne_BJJ

The only way ur going to get good is to challenge yourself, winning just a single match in the inter or advance division would be like winning gold for me.. going up a level is the only way ur goina prove how good you are

Bagels90

arguments to both sides...on one hand id be annoyed if i new there was a man with over double my training time going against me but then again theres nothing to say that you would beat me ...on the other hand you should never go into a division where you dont feel safe or dont enjoy it for that matter.... i think its only fair that you go into the division that you want to compete in and after this tournament you can see if you can move up to the next level

Kieran81

i thought the whole idea of a competition was to compete , not to collect medals , at the last ip nogi tournament a blue belt rips up the -1year division and is happy with that because he hasnt been training for 1year , while the advanced division had 2 whitebelts and not training 3 years , who while not winning were being competitive. would u rather take away that guys gold medal or what the other 2 took home ?

Dermighty

In a competition I faced guys with pro mma fights under their belt, who the previous year were in competitions at the -1 years training bracket and this year they entered the same bracket. Some people do that, most don't. It's **** when you're a true beginner and you face someone on the cusp of the next bracket or belt level.

In my case there wasn't an astronomical gap so i felt good to fight them anyway.

james308

SDTimeout wrote: »

I know people have different opinions on this.

I've been called a sandbagger because I intend on entering the Novice division on Saturdays Grapplepalooza. I'm a white belt who has been training 14 months.

I don't see a problem with it, my coaches don't see a problem with it, but I have a feeling if I do well in my division then all of Ireland and their dogs will have a problem with it.

So just to put it up for discussion here is my take on it. It says white belt or -1 years training. I've been told the OR -1 years training is aimed towards guys with other grappling backgrounds ie wrestling or judo. So pretty straight forward for me that I should enter novice.

Anyone disagree ?

if you entered novice then you cheated, its clear on the rules

bjj-fighter

james308 wrote: »

if you entered novice then you cheated, its clear on the rules

It's clear when it says White belt or Under 1 year. Andrew is a White belt, therefore it's obviously not cheating. I am a blue belt but I have been training far longer than the 3 years for intermediate. I am not a cheater, and I lost my first match. So where's the problem?

DavidPhelan

bjj-fighter wrote: »

It's clear when it says White belt or Under 1 year. Andrew is a White belt, therefore it's obviously not cheating. I am a blue belt but I have been training far longer than the 3 years for intermediate. I am not a cheater, and I lost my first match. So where's the problem?

When it says White Belt OR Under 1 year, it doesn't mean you can just choose! I am in the same situation as Andrew but did intermediate, wouldn't even come into my mind to do beginner, in fact I nearly thought about putting my name down for the advanced!!

Prime example would be Tommy H, who's a white belt in the Gi but did the advanced division cause he's been grappling for years. That's a real competitor!

darced

This post has been deleted.

nino1

DavidPhelan wrote: »

When it says White Belt OR Under 1 year, it doesn't mean you can just choose!

That's the problem, most people assume that you can choose because the rules are not clear.
Barry says the next no gi event will be decided by belts alone with no experience limits. I don't think that solves anything.
This was my first tournament (brilliantly run, and really enjoyed it) and I have been training 6 months but got beaten in my first match by a guy who has been training mma for three years. He considered himself s White belt because he doesn't have a blue, purple etc and if the next tournament divisions are decided by belts alone he will still consider himself a White belt. Technically it's not cheating because of the OR in White belf OR <1 years training.

Why not decide it by experience in grappling alone and leave out belts cos many of these guys are not ranked by belts.

The beginners could be less than one year experience in grappling to include Bjj, judo, samba, mma etc

I know this system will have flaws and no system is perfect but I think it is more definitive.

I think it was the only downside to the tournament that so many beginners divisions had guys that clearly shouldn't have been there.
There was a massive turnout but I would be afraid that this would demoralise an actual beginner and lead to less people competing next time round.



Congrats Barry again on excellently run tournament.

kiad

The only problem seems to be with white belt level, so maybe have a White Belt Beginner and White Belt advanced. I know it wont get rid of the problem but if you put the White beginner at less than 3 or 6 months training it might be a bit better than just having a flat White belt division.

slammer187

I think the problem that people have is that they want these perfect divisions where no one is better than them and everyone is at the same skill level or lower them, that will never happen...you shouldn't care what experience your opponent has as long as you know that your game plan is better than his and that you will beat him.

monkey8

just out of curiousity op what did you end up doing and how did you get on?

rugbyman

I entered the novice and took Silver.

Was nearly out after about 45 seconds as I was caught in a triangle early on in my first fight. Third fight I was beaten by a fantastic flying armbar which caught me by surprise.

Inter by 2012 I would assume.

I also posted on my dads account, waaaaay.

brianb10

rugbyman wrote: »

I entered the novice and took Silver.

Was nearly out after about 45 seconds as I was caught in a triangle early on in my first fight. Third fight I was beaten by a fantastic flying armbar which caught me by surprise.

Inter by 2012 I would assume.

I also posted on my dads account, waaaaay.

Beginners winning by flying armbars shows how widespread the cheating was in grapplepoolza beginners divisions.

Comp was run excellently otherwise and hard to blame organisers for dishonesty of competitors