No-Gi Divisions.

bjj-fighter

Niall0 wrote: »

i hope a few more people sign up to my division tonight :pac:.

I hope so too, or else it'll just be us 3! Good luck anyway.

lukeyjudo

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I could have had a check list:
1) how many years BJJ
2) how many years Judo/Wrestling/Sambo
3) how fit are you on a scale of 1-10
4) how strong are you, like what can you bench press?
and so on. Many things make up a match.

1) how many years BJJ = 2.8...?
2) how many years Judo/Wrestling/ = +15
3) how fit are you on a scale of 1-10 = -3
4) how strong are you, like what can you bench press? = PB of two crates of Guinness

I like this questionarre! It's like Top Trumps!!

bjj-fighter

Sorry Niall0 and theboxingclinic, I moved up a weightclass. Looks like just you two guys! Unless Barry updates the list tonight.

CIARAN_BOYLE

I don't do BJJ but in my opinion if you win your category and aren't in advanced you are in a level too low. Unfortunately you can't figure that out before the competition.

Chris89

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I don't do BJJ but in my opinion if you win your category and aren't in advanced you are in a level too low. Unfortunately you can't figure that out before the competition.

So nobody should be allowed win? nice.

Barry.Oglesby

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I don't do BJJ but in my opinion...

Stopped reading

K.Byrne_BJJ

The only way ur going to get good is to challenge yourself, winning just a single match in the inter or advance division would be like winning gold for me.. going up a level is the only way ur goina prove how good you are

Bagels90

arguments to both sides...on one hand id be annoyed if i new there was a man with over double my training time going against me but then again theres nothing to say that you would beat me ...on the other hand you should never go into a division where you dont feel safe or dont enjoy it for that matter.... i think its only fair that you go into the division that you want to compete in and after this tournament you can see if you can move up to the next level

Kieran81

i thought the whole idea of a competition was to compete , not to collect medals , at the last ip nogi tournament a blue belt rips up the -1year division and is happy with that because he hasnt been training for 1year , while the advanced division had 2 whitebelts and not training 3 years , who while not winning were being competitive. would u rather take away that guys gold medal or what the other 2 took home ?

Dermighty

In a competition I faced guys with pro mma fights under their belt, who the previous year were in competitions at the -1 years training bracket and this year they entered the same bracket. Some people do that, most don't. It's **** when you're a true beginner and you face someone on the cusp of the next bracket or belt level.

In my case there wasn't an astronomical gap so i felt good to fight them anyway.

james308

SDTimeout wrote: »

I know people have different opinions on this.

I've been called a sandbagger because I intend on entering the Novice division on Saturdays Grapplepalooza. I'm a white belt who has been training 14 months.

I don't see a problem with it, my coaches don't see a problem with it, but I have a feeling if I do well in my division then all of Ireland and their dogs will have a problem with it.

So just to put it up for discussion here is my take on it. It says white belt or -1 years training. I've been told the OR -1 years training is aimed towards guys with other grappling backgrounds ie wrestling or judo. So pretty straight forward for me that I should enter novice.

Anyone disagree ?

if you entered novice then you cheated, its clear on the rules

bjj-fighter

james308 wrote: »

if you entered novice then you cheated, its clear on the rules

It's clear when it says White belt or Under 1 year. Andrew is a White belt, therefore it's obviously not cheating. I am a blue belt but I have been training far longer than the 3 years for intermediate. I am not a cheater, and I lost my first match. So where's the problem?

DavidPhelan

bjj-fighter wrote: »

It's clear when it says White belt or Under 1 year. Andrew is a White belt, therefore it's obviously not cheating. I am a blue belt but I have been training far longer than the 3 years for intermediate. I am not a cheater, and I lost my first match. So where's the problem?

When it says White Belt OR Under 1 year, it doesn't mean you can just choose! I am in the same situation as Andrew but did intermediate, wouldn't even come into my mind to do beginner, in fact I nearly thought about putting my name down for the advanced!!

Prime example would be Tommy H, who's a white belt in the Gi but did the advanced division cause he's been grappling for years. That's a real competitor!

darced

This post has been deleted.

nino1

DavidPhelan wrote: »

When it says White Belt OR Under 1 year, it doesn't mean you can just choose!

That's the problem, most people assume that you can choose because the rules are not clear.
Barry says the next no gi event will be decided by belts alone with no experience limits. I don't think that solves anything.
This was my first tournament (brilliantly run, and really enjoyed it) and I have been training 6 months but got beaten in my first match by a guy who has been training mma for three years. He considered himself s White belt because he doesn't have a blue, purple etc and if the next tournament divisions are decided by belts alone he will still consider himself a White belt. Technically it's not cheating because of the OR in White belf OR <1 years training.

Why not decide it by experience in grappling alone and leave out belts cos many of these guys are not ranked by belts.

The beginners could be less than one year experience in grappling to include Bjj, judo, samba, mma etc

I know this system will have flaws and no system is perfect but I think it is more definitive.

I think it was the only downside to the tournament that so many beginners divisions had guys that clearly shouldn't have been there.
There was a massive turnout but I would be afraid that this would demoralise an actual beginner and lead to less people competing next time round.



Congrats Barry again on excellently run tournament.

kiad

The only problem seems to be with white belt level, so maybe have a White Belt Beginner and White Belt advanced. I know it wont get rid of the problem but if you put the White beginner at less than 3 or 6 months training it might be a bit better than just having a flat White belt division.

slammer187

I think the problem that people have is that they want these perfect divisions where no one is better than them and everyone is at the same skill level or lower them, that will never happen...you shouldn't care what experience your opponent has as long as you know that your game plan is better than his and that you will beat him.

monkey8

just out of curiousity op what did you end up doing and how did you get on?

rugbyman

I entered the novice and took Silver.

Was nearly out after about 45 seconds as I was caught in a triangle early on in my first fight. Third fight I was beaten by a fantastic flying armbar which caught me by surprise.

Inter by 2012 I would assume.

I also posted on my dads account, waaaaay.

brianb10

rugbyman wrote: »

I entered the novice and took Silver.

Was nearly out after about 45 seconds as I was caught in a triangle early on in my first fight. Third fight I was beaten by a fantastic flying armbar which caught me by surprise.

Inter by 2012 I would assume.

I also posted on my dads account, waaaaay.

Beginners winning by flying armbars shows how widespread the cheating was in grapplepoolza beginners divisions.

Comp was run excellently otherwise and hard to blame organisers for dishonesty of competitors

Barry.Oglesby

First things first, Grapplepalooza is a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu tournament, just without the gi. It's also an open tournament, so people from wrestling, judo, sambo backgrounds are welcome to enter too. The White Belt category is for white belts, and the -1year guideline is an APPROXIMATE experience level for anyone entering from an ungraded system.

Secondly, to imply there were swathes of people in the white belt category who shouldn't have been there is just plain wrong, and you can say "it's hard to blame the organisers" but the implication is that we are at fault. So sack up, grow a set and accuse me directly of poor organisation if you're going to. I'd respect it far more than the mealy mouthed horsepuckey you're spouting currently.

1) I've seen flying armbars in novice divisions pretty much forever. It's not a difficult technique if you're practising it a lot. I'd be more suspicious of a guy if he went- takedown, pass, armbar but did it in a way that belied his experience level.

2) Everyone keeps going on about how poor beginners will feel demoralised by being beaten by a superior white belt. It's a competition. If they get beaten, they SHOULD feel demoralised. Then they ask their coach where they went wrong, regroup and train harder. Competition should be difficult, there's a hint in the name. In a group of 10 of any belts, I would look at it and say 3 have a realistic chance of winning, 3 in the mid range and 4 will be beaten early and easily. It's the same in every division in every league in every sport worldwide. If you want to create a new division, then you cheapen the competition and create an "Hooray! Everyone's a winner!" category.

3) Here's a RADICAL idea. Maybe, just maybe, it wasn't that some of the white belts were extra good and cheating, but that some of their competition was less experienced and just not as good as them. That happens too. It seems to me like it's "If I win, great, but if I lose then it's because he's a sandbagger". Whenever anyone asks me how to spot if someone's on steroids I always say "if he's bigger and stronger than you, he's probably on steroids". If you got beaten, it's not because the other guy cheated, it's because you're not good enough to win. If you go and train for as long and as hard as the winner, then you might be the guy getting his hand raised. That's the point. I actually saw loads of guys in divisions ABOVE their rank and experience on Saturday. But we won't mention them, we'll just point out the bad.

4) There were 5 referees, 8 table staff and 2 tournament organisers at the event. We didn't receive one, single, solitary, tiny rumbling of a complaint or accusation of sandbagging or cheating of any kind at the event. That was the time to point things out. But you waited until Monday morning and the internet opened for business to get going. Shame on you.

I have an email address baz.oglesby@gmail.com and a phone number 083-4259066. If anyone wishes to direct any accusations of cheating or sandbagging my way I will treat them with confidentiality and investigate them seriously. I want my tournaments to be fair and transparent. I will NOT stand to be accused of facilitating cheating.

I don't expect any phone calls or emails mind you. I know this is the internet where griping anonymously is a way of life.

Barry

David Jones

Surely at this stage, somebody somewhere with some time on their hands could create a database of competitors, competitions and results. So at every competition it could be plain for everyone to see if you have competed and won the white belt category 4 times and even though you arent a blue belt its perhaps time you moved up a division? It wouldnt be up to event organisers to check but this being the internet I am sure there would be a queue of people waiting to "shop" an individual should they attempt to enter an "unsuitable" division.

Oh and as Barry said if you got tapped, maybe just maybe you werent good enough on the day. Might be a little Darwinistic for some but try to reevaluate, train harder and compete again.

Barry.Oglesby

I have an excel sheet of every tournament I've done bar the first one which was done by paper. That's how I know people are moving up in the correct manner.

David Jones

I have an excel sheet of every tournament I've done bar the first one which was done by paper. That's how I know people are moving up in the correct manner.

I am sure you do Barry, Im pretty sure I still have all the King of the Mat ones as well. Perhaps a more central location for the data would be of use. Perhaps something for a governing body or other group of like minded individuals to look into.

EnjoyChoke

Why is this the main preoccupation, after one of the best organised competitions in the country this year was pulled off?

Hanley

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

Why is this the main preoccupation, after one of the best organised competitions in the country this year was pulled off?

You eh... do realise what country you're in, right?

da-bres

There is no 'sand bagging' problem, stop whining and train.

r_obric

brianb10 wrote: »

Beginners winning by flying armbars shows how widespread the cheating was in grapplepoolza beginners divisions.

Comp was run excellently otherwise and hard to blame organisers for dishonesty of competitors

IIRC the guy who won by flying armbar beat a compeditor who won both of his first fights fairly quickly by reverse triangle, neither are easy techniques to pull off in competition but they must have been training them.

Killme00

Speaking of triangles, Tom Kings triangle in the Elite was a thing of beauty.

http://youtu.be/i_J1wCUqTIk

Embarrassing 'commentary' aside

David Jones

Why is this the main preoccupation, after one of the best organised competitions in the country this year was pulled off?

Couldnt have said it better but this is boards so bull**** will prevail.