markhumphrys.com

Stereomaniac

What is it, an ethnicity? I'm not being smart, I've just always been very confused with definitions.

alastair

Stereomaniac wrote: »

What is it, an ethnicity? I'm not being smart, I've just always been very confused with definitions.

It's a religion.

Nodin

Stereomaniac wrote: »

What is it, an ethnicity? I'm not being smart, I've just always been very confused with definitions.

From wiki....

wrote:

Islam (English /ˈɪzlɑːm/;[note 1] Arabic: الإسلام‎ al-ʾislām IPA: [ʔɪsˈlæːm] ( listen)[note 2]) is a monotheistic and Abrahamic religion articulated by the Qur'an, a text considered by its adherents to be the verbatim word of God (Arabic: الله‎ Allāh), and by the teachings and normative example (called the Sunnah and composed of Hadith) of Muhammad, considered by them to be the last prophet of God. An adherent of Islam is called a Muslim..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam

There's a number of sects within Islam. Its like "protestant" - a general term.

Frank Grimes

SeanW wrote: »

It's your side that seems to think Islam is a race ...

Mark is the only one (that I can see at least) bringing accusations of racism into the discussion - everyone else is just pointing out that Robert Spencer is a biased individual with an agenda.

Stereomaniac wrote: »

What is it, an ethnicity? I'm not being smart, I've just always been very confused with definitions.

It's a religion.

humphrys

Frank Grimes wrote: »

Mark is the only one (that I can see at least) bringing accusations of racism into the discussion - everyone else is just pointing out that Robert Spencer is a biased individual with an agenda.

We're all biased. Even you.

What I want to know is - Is criticising Christianity wrong? Or is it only criticising Islam that is wrong?

I actually criticise all religions on my site - I have large sections criticising Christianity, the Bible, Islam, Scientology, Mormonism and so forth. But the left only comes out in defence of Islam.

alastair

humphrys wrote: »

We're all biased. Even you.

What I want to know is - Is criticising Christianity wrong? Or is it only criticising Islam that is wrong?

I actually criticise all religions on my site - I have large sections criticising Christianity, the Bible, Islam, Scientology, Mormonism and so forth. But the left only comes out in defence of Islam.

Who decided that those who have no time for your obsessive campaign of vilification of one religion - Islam - were of the 'left'? Maybe your bigotry (that's something beyond bias btw) just irritates rational thinkers of all persuasions?

Nodin

humphrys wrote: »

We're all biased. Even you.

What I want to know is - Is criticising Christianity wrong? Or is it only criticising Islam that is wrong?

.........

Theres nothing wrong with legitimate criticism of anything. However Pamela Geller et al represent the kind of low-end demonisation that can be seen in those bigoted against Jews, Catholics, and racists.

Frank Grimes

humphrys wrote: »

We're all biased. Even you.

What I want to know is - Is criticising Christianity wrong? Or is it only criticising Islam that is wrong?

I actually criticise all religions on my site - I have large sections criticising Christianity, the Bible, Islam, Scientology, Mormonism and so forth. But the left only comes out in defence of Islam.

I am not defending Islam/Muslims because I'm left-wing, I'm not sure what gives you the impression that I even am left-wing other than the fact that I'm not spouting bile against Islam/Muslims. I am simply pointing out that (a) the 'experts' you are in awe of are extremely biased, and disingenuously present themselves as authorities on something they clearly have limited understandings of and (b) that constant reductionist explanations of the actions of Muslims (i.e. Islam makes them do it) are often simply wrong and mask the real motivations behind the actions being taken by the individuals involved. Quite often the people presenting these 'explanations' are doing so to exonerate themselves of responsibility for creating the situations they are decrying and blaming 'Islam' on, especially when it involves state actions against a Muslim population.

Logical_Bear

humphrys wrote: »

But the left only comes out in defence of Islam.

and it's only the right that comes out in defense of Israel because its a fascist state...

The fact you ignore the 'wrongs' that the Israeli state are doing to the palestinians,the fact you make no mention of these wrongs in your blog and your failure to address these wrongs when asked here on boards directly makes you nothing more than a shill.

treat people like animals they behave like animals.

Imagine if the Israeli's respected borders and didnt build settlements(occupied by orthodox jews who think they have a god given right to live there because of a holy book!)you'd probably find the troubles in the ME would of been sorted long ago.

Yes I'm sure terrorist attacks would continue but would be viewed the same way we see attacks by the RIRA and the CIRA...attacks by retards living in the past and have no bearing on the way the majority live regardless of which sky fairy they believe in.

humphrys

Frank Grimes wrote: »

and (b) that constant reductionist explanations of the actions of Muslims (i.e. Islam makes them do it) are often simply wrong and mask the real motivations behind the actions being taken by the individuals involved.

OK Let me ask a question.

When I see a guy like Abu Nidal, say, I see just another jihad fighter in the decades-long Islamic jihad against Israel.

Some people - perhaps you - see a secular nationalist, a marxist - an atheist it has even been suggested on this thread.

So my question is this: Did Abu Nidal ever renounce Islam? Did he ever declare that he was an apostate from Islam? Did he ever declare that he was an atheist? Did he ever declare that he did not believe in Allah and the Prophet?

alastair

humphrys wrote: »

OK Let me ask a question.

When I see a guy like Abu Nidal, say, I see just another jihad fighter in the decades-long Islamic jihad against Israel.

Some people - perhaps you - see a secular nationalist, a marxist - an atheist it has even been suggested on this thread.

So my question is this: Did Abu Nidal ever renounce Islam? Did he ever declare that he was an apostate from Islam? Did he ever declare that he was an atheist? Did he ever declare that he did not believe in Allah and the Prophet?

Abu Nidal made a pretty poor jihadist against Israel - given that he exhibited precious little adherence to the tenets of Islam, and primarily directed his campaign of violence toward other Arabs. He was no jihadist - he was initially an armed-struggle nationalist, and mainly a gangster. When did that secular nationalist Gerry Adams renounce Catholicism btw?

Frank Grimes

humphrys wrote: »

So my question is this: Did Abu Nidal ever renounce Islam? Did he ever declare that he was an apostate from Islam? Did he ever declare that he was an atheist? Did he ever declare that he did not believe in Allah and the Prophet?

I don't know, do you? Even if he did not declare any of this, it neither confirms that he was motivated by Islam nor does it confirm, as you and others of your ideological persuasion imply, that all Muslims are motivated solely by Islam and nothing else. Members of the PKK are technically Muslims however they are a Marxist group motivated by nationalist/irredentist demands. I assume you class them in the Islamofacist/jihadi/whatever category too?

humphrys

Frank Grimes wrote: »

Members of the PKK are technically Muslims however they are a Marxist group motivated by nationalist/irredentist demands. I assume you class them in the Islamofacist/jihadi/whatever category too?

If they were fighting against Israel then I would regard them as jihadists, yes.

So are we all agreed that Abu Nidal was a Muslim, and a terrorist, and spent his life fighting against the Jews, Israel and the West, but somehow it is deeply wrong to call him an Islamic terrorist?

I seem to remember that we were fed the propaganda line that Fatah and Arafat were "secular" too.
Em, I don't think so:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Martyrs'_Brigades

alastair

humphrys wrote: »

So are we all agreed that Abu Nidal was a Muslim, and a terrorist, and spent his life fighting against the Jews, Israel and the West, but somehow it is deeply wrong to call him an Islamic terrorist?

Now you're getting it. You left 'other Arabs' from your list there too.

Frank Grimes

humphrys wrote: »

If they were fighting against Israel then I would regard them as jihadists, yes.

So your main criterion for defining someone/group as Jihadists is them fighting against Israel? So this includes the Marxist Palestinian groups, and presumably any Christian/Atheist etc. Palestinians fighting against Israel?

So are we all agreed that Abu Nidal was a Muslim, and a terrorist, and spent his life fighting against the Jews, Israel and the West, but somehow it is deeply wrong to call him an Islamic terrorist?

Firstly Mark, despite the fact that I have an long standing interest in Islam generally, I have little interest in the Israel/Palestine conflict so I cannot comment on this individual specifically - maybe you could answer my question about him renouncing Islam to inform me better.

Re. the bolded part; the problem I, and others, have with ascribing labels like 'Islamic terrorist' to people/groups is that it implies that the only motivation behind their actions is Islam when quite often this simply is not the case. I realise these reductionist explanations suit certain peoples' agenda but in reality these 'explanations' do not really explain anything in any meaningful way.

I seem to remember that we were fed the propaganda line that Fatah and Arafat were "secular" too.
Em, I don't think so:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Martyrs'_Brigades

I don't know what the relevance of this is to my post, I assume you're directing this at someone else?

humphrys

Frank Grimes wrote: »

So your main criterion for defining someone/group as Jihadists is them fighting against Israel? So this includes the Marxist Palestinian groups, and presumably any Christian/Atheist etc. Palestinians fighting against Israel?

Anyone carrying out attacks on Israel since 1948 is fighting for the jihad, in my opinion, yes.

I view Christian Palestinian terrorists (of whom we hear little these days - maybe they saw reality) as fighters for the same cause - just as the Reich had Ukrainian camp guards and Vichy French police to help it.

I am familiar with various "marxist" declarations, but which Palestinians exactly have declared they are atheist? I am genuinely interested in whether any anti-Israel fighters have declared openly that they are apostates from Islam. Has this ever happened?

whatstherush

humphrys wrote: »

Anyone carrying out attacks on Israel since 1948 is fighting for the jihad, in my opinion, yes.

So Mark, hypothetical for ya. Someone comes into your home and says its now their home, because their god has deemed it holy, the only reason you would resist this action is because of your own religious beliefs.

alastair

humphrys wrote: »

I am familiar with various "marxist" declarations, but which Palestinians exactly have declared they are atheist?

It might be worth pointing out that no-one in this thread expressed any opinion on Abu Nidal's being an atheist - except yourself. Despite your claim otherwise. You've got quite the closed loop dialogue going on there.

Frank Grimes

humphrys wrote: »

Anyone carrying out attacks on Israel since 1948 is fighting for the jihad, in my opinion, yes.

I view Christian Palestinian terrorists (of whom we hear little these days - maybe they saw reality) as fighters for the same cause - just as the Reich had Ukrainian camp guards and Vichy French police to help it.

I am familiar with various "marxist" declarations, but which Palestinians exactly have declared they are atheist? I am genuinely interested in whether any anti-Israel fighters have declared openly that they are apostates from Islam. Has this ever happened?

Why would Christians/Marxists fight for the same 'cause' if the sole explanation for that cause is rooted in Islamic doctrine?

humphrys

alastair wrote: »

It might be worth pointing out that no-one in this thread expressed any opinion on Abu Nidal's being an atheist - except yourself. Despite your claim otherwise. You've got quite the closed loop dialogue going on there.

That's not true. Earlier someone said:
"You use attacks orchestrated by Abu Nidal, a Marxist...y'know a militant atheist like yourself as an example of Islamic terrorism. Ironic I know"

And just now, Frank Grimes said:
"So this includes the Marxist Palestinian groups, and presumably any Christian/Atheist etc. Palestinians fighting against Israel?"

Are we now agreed there are no such people? That there are no apostates from Islam fighting Israel?

I genuinely want to know. Tell me if such people exist.

alastair

humphrys wrote: »

Are we now agreed there are no such people? That there are no apostates from Islam fighting Israel?.

No we are not.

humphrys wrote: »

I genuinely want to know. Tell me if such people exist.

I doubt it's a genuine interest tbh - but I see no reason why there would not be atheist Palestinians, and by extension, atheist Palestinians engaged in their local geo-political dispute with Israel.

What's certain is that your 'opinion' that anyone who finds cause to attack the state of Israel is engaged in 'jihad' is a very special, and I'd suggest, fairly unique, opinion.

humphrys

alastair wrote: »

I doubt it's a genuine interest tbh - but I see no reason why there would not be atheist Palestinians, and by extension, atheist Palestinians engaged in their local geo-political dispute with Israel.

What's certain is that your 'opinion' that anyone who finds cause to attack the state of Israel is engaged in 'jihad' is a very special, and I'd suggest, fairly unique, opinion.

Well you can insult me, or you can find me some apostates from Islam who still engage in terror against Israel.

Do such exist? I want to know. I am genuinely curious.

alastair

humphrys wrote: »

Well you can insult me, or you can find me some apostates from Islam who still engage in terror against Israel.

Do such exist? I want to know. I am genuinely curious.

Who's insulting you?

Obviously they can exist. The conditions of injustice against Palestinians by Israel exists regardless of any/or no religious adherence/belief.

Nodin

humphrys wrote: »

Did Abu Nidal ever renounce Islam? Did he ever declare that he was an apostate from Islam? Did he ever declare that he was an atheist? Did he ever declare that he did not believe in Allah and the Prophet?
.....

This is descending into farce -

"Seale writes that Abu Nidal was a nondescript figure, often in poor health and shabbily dressed in a zip-up jacket and old trousers. In his later years, he drank whisky every night, and seemed to prefer his own company, living like a mole, lonely and isolated. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Nidal

A regular son of the prophet. Even enjoys a jar.

humphrys wrote: »

If they were fighting against Israel then I would regard them as jihadists, yes.

.....

I have to say thats rather a bizarre comment which is frankly devoid of logic.

humphrys wrote: »

Well you can insult me, or you can find me some apostates from Islam who still engage in terror against Israel......

The PFLP are still a large part of Fatah. However, seeing as you manage to classify Abu Nidal as a "jihadi" theres little point in pursuing any argument with you along these lines.

Frank Grimes

humphrys wrote: »

Are we now agreed there are no such people? That there are no apostates from Islam fighting Israel?

I genuinely want to know. Tell me if such people exist.

Mark, from your posts you do not seem to view any Palestinians as anything other than fanatical Muslims so I cannot understand the purpose of asking this. I'd imagine even if we produced written statements by Palestinians declaring themselves to be fanatical atheist Marxists or whatever you'd dismiss it as taqiyya.

Would you mind addressing something I actually asked earlier:

me wrote:

Why would Christians/Marxists fight for the same 'cause' if the sole explanation for that cause is rooted in Islamic doctrine?

humphrys

Nodin wrote: »

This is descending into farce -

"Seale writes that Abu Nidal was a nondescript figure, often in poor health and shabbily dressed in a zip-up jacket and old trousers. In his later years, he drank whisky every night, and seemed to prefer his own company, living like a mole, lonely and isolated. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Nidal

A regular son of the prophet. Even enjoys a jar.

So he's an Islamic terrorist who drinks? So what. It proves nothing.
The 9/11 jihadists were Islamic terrorists who used strip clubs.
Anwar al-Awlaki was an Islamic terrorist who was repeatedly arrested for soliciting prostitutes.
The Fort Hood jihad killer used strip clubs. And so on.
See:

http://markhumphrys.com/root.cause.html#sexuality

If Abu Nidal was really an apostate, why did he not say so?
Can't you find me a single Islamic apostate terrorist?
I'm not saying they don't exist. I would genuinely like to know.

Nodin wrote: »

The PFLP are still a large part of Fatah. However, seeing as you manage to classify Abu Nidal as a "jihadi" theres little point in pursuing any argument with you along these lines.

So the PFLP killers who butchered the family at Itamar in 2011 were atheists:
http://markhumphrys.com/israel.conflict.crimes.html#itamar
The fanatic Jew-killers who entered a house and stabbed a 4 year old Jew to death, and cut the throat of his baby sister, because she was a Jew baby, are actually atheists, apostates from Islam? Fascinating. Can you provide proof for this claim?

humphrys

Frank Grimes wrote: »

I'd imagine even if we produced written statements by Palestinians declaring themselves to be fanatical atheist Marxists or whatever you'd dismiss it as taqiyya.

No I wouldn't.

I would take such statements seriously.

I would be very interested.

humphrys

Frank Grimes wrote: »

Why would Christians/Marxists fight for the same 'cause' if the sole explanation for that cause is rooted in Islamic doctrine?

For the same reason that the Socialist Workers Party in Ireland supports Hamas and Hezbollah.

http://markhumphrys.com/iawm.html

Human stupidity.

Nodin

humphrys wrote: »

So he's an (.........)enuinely like to know.

An important thing to note - the world does not go by your definition of what is and is not a "jihadi", "Islamic terrorist" "extreme left" etc and so on. Thats not the way things work, so we might call a halt to the sillyness now.

humphrys wrote: »

So the PFLP killers who butchered the family at Itamar in 2011 were atheists:

So are we now trying to say that atheists never carried out an atrocity?

Nodin

humphrys wrote: »

For the same reason that the Socialist Workers Party in Ireland supports Hamas and Hezbollah.
...........

...or perhaps because they put resistance to occupation/colonialism ahead of sectarian bigotry....