Self defence for someone in the pub trade?

sasta le

Hiya
Working in the pub trade and never had any major trouble(touch wood),find talking people down works but i wanted to maybe learn some good basics and also a way of getting back into sport/fitness.

Im not a big guy or heavy so can any of ye recommend something for me,Thanks.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Well where are you living and have you any particular style you'd fancy trying?.

sasta le

Im in Limerick
God i wouldnt know really any particular styles,id like to learn some self defence i could use if needed in work/also every day life
Not sure would classes cover any fitness but wouldnt matter if they didnt

Sorry im clueless here with people that know their stuff lol

arybvtcw0eolkf

Well I don't know whats available in Limerick, sorry.

But my advice is to look at all the different classes in your area, something will click with you and thats the one I'd recommend - ie do it because you enjoy it and not because its directly applicable to bar work.

But if I was to offer you some quick recommendations off the top of my head, and loosely based on my own personal experiences (I'm working the doors almost 20years).. For confidence and something which is easy to learn I'd pick from a number of striking styles..

Muay Thai, boxing, kickboxing.

For joint locks and takedowns I'd say Judo.

For pure craic, quick and effective learning I'd recommend MMA (mixed martial arts).

But seriously unless your working in a mad kip (change jobs!) I'd say just train in martial arts for the fun and health benefits more so that any self defence skills you might aquire.

Sid_Justice

sasta le wrote: »

Hiya
Working in the pub trade and never had any major trouble(touch wood),find talking people down works but i wanted to maybe learn some good basics and also a way of getting back into sport/fitness.

Im not a big guy or heavy so can any of ye recommend something for me,Thanks.

They do krav maga in ul but i don't really rate it.

Combat sports centre in town covers bjj, mma and bitta' boxing/thai which should cover the basics of SD and getting fit with a sporting outlet.

cletus

Combat sports centre has two excellent coaches, and a great atmosphere to train in. Click on the link below for more info

manga_10

For me personally self defense wise wrestling or bjj are best but different martial arts suit different ppl

TrollHammaren

This might be a good thread to check out, OP: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=71561390

Raze_them_all

Jayson Obnoxious Popover wrote: »

Well I don't know whats available in Limerick, sorry.

But my advice is to look at all the different classes in your area, something will click with you and thats the one I'd recommend - ie do it because you enjoy it and not because its directly applicable to bar work.

But if I was to offer you some quick recommendations off the top of my head, and loosely based on my own personal experiences (I'm working the doors almost 20years).. For confidence and something which is easy to learn I'd pick from a number of striking styles..

Muay Thai, boxing, kickboxing.

For joint locks and takedowns I'd say Judo.

For pure craic, quick and effective learning I'd recommend MMA (mixed martial arts).

But seriously unless your working in a mad kip (change jobs!) I'd say just train in martial arts for the fun and health benefits more so that any self defence skills you might aquire.

+1 for judo and mma

manga_10 wrote: »

For me personally self defense wise wrestling or bjj are best but different martial arts suit different ppl

you never want to go to ground if you're out in a crowd/working in a pub, not ever.

SanoVitae

Raze_them_all wrote: »

you never want to go to ground if you're out in a crowd/working in a pub, not ever.

Agreed - I have absolutely no BJJ skills whatsoever, but I'm 100% confident I'd be able to keep the likes of Roger Gracie occupied on the ground long enough for 3 of my mates to stomp all over him and treat his head like a football.

Plus, I'd be much more likely to use my bag of instinctive biting and eye-gouging techniques than anything taught in a conventional BJJ class.

Just for the record, I absolutely love BJJ.

arybvtcw0eolkf

BJJ would be terrible in a self defence situation.

If I was asked in work to recommend a style for a bouncer, BJJ would be way down my list of choices.

shay2010

Second the bouncer recommendation

TrollHammaren

I'm a pretty small guy myself and I've worked as a bouncer for 5 years; to condense what I said in my posts on the security/self defence thread, Judo or Ju Jutsu (not BJJ) would be ideal.

RoboRat

Done the door myself when I was younger in a rough old spot (Hitching Post in Leixlip) and I had done Kempo, Bushido and Boxing. I would personally say that Boxing & Bushido worked for me but now that I'm doing Judo I think that would be my No.1, especially when combined with a stand up striking art like Muai Thai or Boxing/Kickboxing.

arybvtcw0eolkf

RoboRat wrote: »

Done the door myself when I was younger in a rough old spot (Hitching Post in Leixlip)

A rough old spot is right!.

I worked down in the old Rock'a fella's before the Ozone opened.

I also worked in Sammy's and Highway 66.

Leixlip is the roughest kip I've ever worked, 'bar none.

yomchi

I see your Leixlips and your hitching posts and I raise you Judge Darley's on Benburb St :P

In my opinion, and I've ran security companies - Some of the best door men in Dublin have trained in nothing.

OP if you're interested in training purely for SD drop me a line.

Cheers

Zen65

Jayson Obnoxious Popover wrote: »

But seriously unless your working in a mad kip (change jobs!) I'd say just train in martial arts for the fun and health benefits more so that any self defence skills you might aquire.

+1 to this.

Martial Arts are for fighting, whereas self-defence is about awareness, avoidance, de-escalating aggressive situations, and if push comes to shove inflicting (a little) damage before escaping. It seems you already have the skill of talking down a situation, and sometimes people with "black belt syndrome" don't have that skill and walk straight into an attack from which they're injured. Train in a MA for fitness, for fun and to learn a few effective ways of inflicting that bit of pain/damage for the rare situations when you might need it. Get a good book or DVD on self-defence strategies for door/security personnel to get your head around the strategies which work (I recommend Geoff Thompsons videos.... I've found them invaluable as an aid for teaching self-defence too).

I'd add "karate" to Jayson Obnoxious Popover's list of striking arts (my personal bias) but to be honest it can be hard to find a really good karate school, and what the bad ones teach you can get you injured very quickly.


Be at peace,

Z

RoboRat

A rough old spot is right!.

I worked down in the old Rock'a fella's before the Ozone opened.

I also worked in Sammy's and Highway 66.

Leixlip is the roughest kip I've ever worked, 'bar none.

Jesus, we have probably crossed paths a few times as I would have been a 'patron' in Rockafellas back in the day! Leixlip's not too bad, back then it used to be rough as you would have Ballyfermot, Chapelizod, Lucan, Celbridge, Leixlip, Maynooth and then further afield in North Kildare all meeting in one place which led to trouble. I see you never worked in Abrakebabra.. not that you needed to with Tony behind the counter!

I raise you Judge Darley's on Benburb St

I'd rather not.. was offered a gig in Finglas, think it was Fassaugh House but i politely declined!

arybvtcw0eolkf

RoboRat wrote: »

Jesus, we have probably crossed paths a few times as I would have been a 'patron' in Rockafellas back in the day! Leixlip's not too bad, back then it used to be rough as you would have Ballyfermot, Chapelizod, Lucan, Celbridge, Leixlip, Maynooth and then further afield in North Kildare all meeting in one place which led to trouble. I see you never worked in Abrakebabra.. not that you needed to with Tony behind the counter!

Well when I worked there the garda station closed at 11pm and it was Fort Appache after that!..

We'd some epic battles in that place, Did you know big Dave Gill from the Hitcher?. He worked there for awhile, then we worked on Sammys and Highway 66.

Dave was stabbed in the neck outside Highway 66 the Christmas The Blue Banana in Clondalkin was closed down.

After that we worked some other clubs together, The Redcow, The Lamb in Swords.

A bouncer earner his stripes in Leixlip back then!.

Zen65 I worked with a lad who done Kyokushin Karate, he'd very fast strikes.

Then two lads who Yomchi know's well - Frank M & Jimmy C (Jon I was out with Frank last night) who were both brilliant doormen and both trained TKD.

RoboRat

Name rings a bell, to be honest I only really remember the regular lads like Pat Brilly, Robbie, Philly Guilfoyle, Scanner, Gerry... Joe and Sean (later on) - was back in 1994 so might have been a bit before seeing as you talking about Highway '66 - that was Abrakebebra back then!

Glad I got out of the game to be honest, suited me to do it whilst I was in college as the money was good and hours didn't affect college but I wouldn't do it again - I know that its a professional job with proper training now but I hated the way some lads did it for a job whereas others did it for their own personal ego trip - I always hated when I got stuck with an egomaniac!

syklops

OP, there is a man called Mike Carroll(unfortunately common name) in Limerick. I got Judo instruction from him years ago, and a finer instructor I am yet to meet.

Ask around, and I am sure you would find him, if not,let me know and I will do some research for you.

HammerHeadGym

yomchi wrote: »

... Judge Darley's on Benburb St ...

I'll call with Delanys early house in Smithfield.
As for OP I have said in a previous thread that if I was building the perfect pub worker self defence droid it would contain 50% Judo 20% Muay Thai or western boxing 5%Bjj or olympic wrestling and 25% strength and conditioning. Thats actually changed since last time to include S&C training, which honestly gave me a signifigant edge in some truly hairy situations.

yomchi

HammerHeadGym wrote: »

I'll call with Delanys early house in Smithfield.

Ah yeh but that doesn't matter unless you were there for the first Sunday of every month :D

Barry.Oglesby

Far less experienced on the door than some of the fine gents above but I can chime in and tell you that BJJ and wrestling served me just fine. And by that I mean arm drag and RNC and the occasional snap down and guillotine.

Raze_them_all

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Far less experienced on the door than some of the fine gents above but I can chime in and tell you that BJJ and wrestling served me just fine. And by that I mean arm drag and RNC and the occasional snap down and guillotine.

Of course you'd never do this while working as they are illigal IIRC *cough cough*

arybvtcw0eolkf

Raze_them_all wrote: »

Of course you'd never do this while working as they are illigal IIRC *cough cough*

Ye olde worlde 'sleeper!.. Love 'em

Raze_them_all

I was just restraining him is all! he musta had a panic attack and passed out officer :pac:

Sid_Justice

What do you mean a RNC is illegal?

Raze_them_all

Afaik you're not allowed to do it on a door, or we were always advised not to

Raging_Ninja

Sid_Justice wrote: »

What do you mean a RNC is illegal?

There are incidents of people being accidentally killed while being escorted out by doormen whilst held in the choke. I think it happened a couple of years ago in Cork or someplace if I'm remembering correctly.

Sid_Justice

I don't think there is any legislation that specifically points out RNC/sleeper etc. as being particularly illegal. That is to say if you feel you're acting within the law to punch someone in the face you're also able to RNC them.

With regards to fatalities from RNC, I remember something Bambi said on here a few years ago, almost all (99%) were from people choking people out with night sticks and clubs, putting too much pressure on the trachea and breaking it into bits. Also people standing on people's necks.

Having said that, if a bouncer put some one in a deep rNC and held for a few minutes they would kill someone. But punching someone several times in the head after they've passed out would also cause a fatality.

So I take the point people that actually work in this industry (unlike me) are warned specifically about applying these type of manoeuvres because it's something gardaí and particularly sensitive too but I don't accept it's actually outlined any differently in the law.

As usual open to correction

Dyr

I don't remember the percentage but that was for american cops. I can fecking tell you that stick chokes are unforgiving

Someone pointed out to me since that it's not actually illegal for the police to choke someone out but it's considered to be lethal use of force so it can only be justified in life or death situations. Probably something to bear in mind in this country too...

Barry.Oglesby

I've never, ever, seen nor heard of anything that is specifically banned. If you were to have a banned list then it would follow that you would have to have a de facto "legal" list and that would be a nightmare. Not including something would essentially make it allowed. I don't think our legislators have the requisite experience . The law states something like reasonable force. How you define reasonable isn't for you to decide, it's for the courts to decide once the incident has passed.

Sid_Justice

Off the top of my head, the only things I can think of that are specifically 'banned' are machetes and ninja stars. I think tazers and telescopic batons may also be in that list of weird and wonderful things you definitely can't be in possession of.

I do find it amusing the idea that a rear naked choke may be illegal but shooting someone dead isn't.

Big Show

The use of "reasonable force" makes sense, the force used should be in direct proportion to the perceived or actual threat, for instance killing someone may be within the law in certain situations..

CIARAN_BOYLE

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I've never, ever, seen nor heard of anything that is specifically banned. If you were to have a banned list then it would follow that you would have to have a de facto "legal" list and that would be a nightmare. Not including something would essentially make it allowed. I don't think our legislators have the requisite experience . The law states something like reasonable force. How you define reasonable isn't for you to decide, it's for the courts to decide once the incident has passed.

I don't think its banned. More to the point some judges have called it a use lethal force in judgments which is precedent which means things are crap

TrollHammaren

At our training we were specifically told not to use RNC. If you're throwing someone out and something happens to them whilst they're in an arm lock the courts are going to go much easier on you. I'd avoid chokes like the plague.

crazy cabbage

surly if you put someone in a choke they are going to panic. if you just put them in an arm lock or something similar they would be alot calmer.
i know if i was put into a choke by someone i would go mental becouse from my point of view he is trying to kill me. reason would go out the window and i would act like it was a self defence situation.

an arm lock in a club is completly different though becouse while the bouncer is still in control i wouldn't have hands around my neck and can reason better.

dont know if this came across the way i wanted it to. hope ye understood

Stephen_King

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

There are incidents of people being accidentally killed while being escorted out by doormen whilst held in the choke. I think it happened a couple of years ago in Cork or someplace if I'm remembering correctly.

If I remember it right, the problem was around 5 bouncers were trying to drag\carry the poor chap up some stairs to throw him out. I dont think anyone who has any bit of training would make the same mistake as those imbeciles-they were restraining his arms and legs while one of them was dragging him up the stairs by his neck in a RNC.

Anyone with 2 months of grappling would have the cop on to know he would have been out in a few seconds with the way they were dragging him, and definitely would have known not to keep it on that long. As it was they didnt and the lad died.

I dont believe theres any list of specifc illegal restraining holds as such, from what I recall its more of a catch all duty of care-you have a right to defend yourself and other customers, but you leave yourself and the premises open to legal action if you use execessive force (i.e you injure them)

RoboRat

I dont believe theres any list of specifc illegal restraining holds as such, from what I recall its more of a catch all duty of care-you have a right to defend yourself and other customers, but you leave yourself and the premises open to legal action if you use execessive force (i.e you injure them)

I don't think there is either, as far as I know its dealt with on a case by case basis and the situation versus the action you take are taken into account - eg if someone is trying to cut you with a glass then you could possibly use a RNC and get away with it if they were a genuine threat (not plastered and swinging) as it would be deemed a life threatening situation. If you are throwing someone out because they are too drunk and getting rowdy then obviously a RNC is OTT. That is why I always maintain the best bouncers to work with are the guys who do it for a job and can remain calm no matter what is being said or done - the last thing you need is the red mist descending on the guy beside you!

arybvtcw0eolkf

crazy cabbage wrote: »

surly if you put someone in a choke they are going to panic. if you just put them in an arm lock or something similar they would be alot calmer.
i know if i was put into a choke by someone i would go mental becouse from my point of view he is trying to kill me. reason would go out the window and i would act like it was a self defence situation.

an arm lock in a club is completly different though becouse while the bouncer is still in control i wouldn't have hands around my neck and can reason better.

dont know if this came across the way i wanted it to. hope ye understood

And what happens if the punter resists an armlock, break the joint?.

I'd rather choke someone out than break a joint or strike them.

The only time I'd consider using a joint lock is with someone on the ground and I'm trying to restrain them whilst waiting for the guards.

The difference on the ground and say, escorting someone from the premises in an armlock is I've vastly more control of their movements while I have them on the deck.