Breastfeeding tip-toeing

caprilicious

pwurple wrote: »

She does have an egg allergy at 8 months, and of course I'm thinking, is that cos I didn't breastfeed long enough?

I definitely wouldn't blame yourself for causing the allergy. My mum breastfed me for 1 year. I still ended up having a childhood of chronic asthma & several food allergies including chocolate, E numbers (the additives the put in many foods to colour them) and eggs!

I tried my daughter on eggs first when she was 9 months and she did have a rash/runny tummy after. So I left til she was 15 months before trying again and thankfully she was fine taking them then.

psychward

grindelwald wrote: »

From my own experience I can tell you that's bull.

I breast fed my first for 2.5 years, breast milk is ver sweet, it caused tooth decay in my girl at the age of 2. She also had diabetes at 7 and the asthmatic cough till she was 7, she also had loads of antibiotics due to cheats infections and had eczema. She was also much bigger than bottle fed babies. So your research can go down the pan.

My 2 bottle fed boys are much healthier. At 12 my eldest weight isn't an issue as she loses weight up to half a stone in 2 days every time she goes into ketoacidosis. Which is around once a year... She is tall but hay her dads 6 foot, genetics have more to do with it then if you were or weren't breast fed...

Your experience doesn't prove that your breastfed girl wouldn't have had a worse time if she hadn't been breastfed or that your bottlefed boys wouldn't have benefited in some way from being breastfed.
As for the allergies. Hopefully most of them grow out of those anyway.

implausible

grindelwald wrote: »

From my own experience I can tell you that's bull.

I breast fed my first for 2.5 years, breast milk is ver sweet, it caused tooth decay in my girl at the age of 2. She also had diabetes at 7 and the asthmatic cough till she was 7, she also had loads of antibiotics due to cheats infections and had eczema. She was also much bigger than bottle fed babies. So your research can go down the pan.

My 2 bottle fed boys are much healthier. At 12 my eldest weight isn't an issue as she loses weight up to half a stone in 2 days every time she goes into ketoacidosis. Which is around once a year... She is tall but hay her dads 6 foot, genetics have more to do with it then if you were or weren't breast fed...

I'm sorry Grindelwald, but your personal experience does not contradict all the research that is out there about the benefits of breastfeeding. Of course, there are always going to be exceptions, as there is to everything. For example, everyone knows someone who smoked all their lives and didn't get lung cancer and everyone knows someone who never smoked who got lung cancer. That does not disprove the link between smoking and cancer.

lynski

The reduction of risk is not the same as the removal of risk.
Take one stat:

A study recently performed by the University of Virginia found that "breastfeeding can significantly reduce the risk of SIDS. Even a short period of breastfeeding can reduce the risk of SIDS by 45 percent. Breastfeeding only, without bottle or early food supplementation, could reduce the risk by 73 percent."

That does not mean that all babies who are artificially fed will die any more then it means that all babies who are normally fed will live. It means that Formula feeding increases the risk of SIDS. Like it also increases the risk of asthma, diabetes, gastro illnesses, allergies, depression in mothers, and a host of things. It does not mean all artificially fed babies will suffer from these ailments, just more of them than are naturally fed will. It does not mean all naturally fed babies will not suffer from these ailments just less of them will.
We take extraordinary precautions while pregnant to avoid a whole host of things for the risk the might pose to the developing infant, many of these risks are so minimal and are rare, yet most women avoid and worry about lots of things. As soon as baby arrives though more then 50% of Irish mothers expose their babies to multiple, documented, risks for, on the most part, no good reason.
(please note the on the most part - I have read all the special cases here and there are a small number of women with good reason to not breastfeed BUT again, study after study shows that that number is small and a lot smaller then 50%)
The op asked a question: why when mothers have all the information available to them do they put their babies at a higher risk by artificially feeding for no good reason?
Well I can tell you one reason - pressure. So much pressure. I am naturally feeding my 9mth old, third baby. I am committed to naturally feeding him until he self-weans. The pressure from family to give a bottle and to get my life back (i have 3 under 5, hello? this is my life), the pressure when he is not welcome at events (wedding, funeral, etc), the constant comments and remarks about how they could help me if he had a bottle, the expectation of friends that I will be finished with 'all that' by our christmas night out/friends birthday/etc, the questions about when I will finish. It is an almost daily incidence and it is not about being sensitive but about your confidence being undermined and your judgement being questioned with, it seems, impunity.

LegacyUser

caprilicious wrote: »

I definitely wouldn't blame yourself for causing the allergy. My mum breastfed me for 1 year. I still ended up having a childhood of chronic asthma & several food allergies including chocolate, E numbers (the additives the put in many foods to colour them) and eggs!

I tried my daughter on eggs first when she was 9 months and she did have a rash/runny tummy after. So I left til she was 15 months before trying again and thankfully she was fine taking them then.

Taking solid food too early can cause these allergies. Food not digested by an immature digestive system leaks into the blood stream and is attacked, causing life long allergies.

Might be worth asking when you were introduced to solid food. In the 60s and 70s, as early as possible was, wrongly, considered best practice.

Sieka

OS,
Firstly I would like to compliment you on the obvious pride that you take in having a breastfed baby. I imagine your wife must really value your support and your enthusiasm. It is a sad fact of our society that many mothers who want to breastfeed struggle with misinformation and a lack of support. I believe this contributes to early weaning and our poor breastfeeding rates. Access to a peer breastfeeding support group is invaluable. It is important to keep a sense of balance and perspective when considering infant feeding and other parenting choices though as what works very well for one family may not suit another for a myriad of reasons.

caprilicious

OutOfStep Dad wrote: »

Taking solid food too early can cause these allergies. Food not digested by an immature digestive system leaks into the blood stream and is attacked, causing life long allergies.

Might be worth asking when you were introduced to solid food. In the 60s and 70s, as early as possible was, wrongly, considered best practice.

I was started on solids at 11 months, so not excessively early. some might say a late starter in fact.
Just to clarify I wouldn't say my development of said allergies/asthma is reason enough for anyone not to breastfeed, I understand there are exceptions to the rule.


Absolutely true about it being considered early practice in the 60's/70's. A neighbour who had his children in this era was like a flea in my ear badgering me to try my daughter on solids at 8 weeks old. Needless to say I ignored this advice!

carfiosaoorl

I think it all comes down to personal choice and nobody has a right to judge another persons choices. I am a mother of 3 and I bottle fed all of my children. I am intelligent and educated. I know well the benefits of breastfeeding but I still chose to bottle feed and if I had another child he/she would be bottle fed because that is what feels comfortable to me.
I have 3 sisters who also have children 2 of us breast fed and 2 of us bottle fed. I also have another sister who is pregnant with her first baby and she intends to breast feed so its not like the concept of breast feeding is alien to me.
It irks me a lot when some people who breast feed think that they have stumbled upon this amazing idea and feel like they have to educate the ignorant masses. If anything it has the opposite effect than what they are looking for. In actual fact I think a strange elitest element has stumbled into breastfeeding
Women have been breastfeeding since the beginning of humanity you dont deserve a pat on the back for it.

psychward

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

I think it all comes down to personal choice and nobody has a right to judge another persons choices.

Yet you judge people who do choose to breastfeed ?

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

In actual fact I think a strange elitest element has stumbled into breastfeeding

lynski

OutOfStep Dad wrote: »

Taking solid food too early can cause these allergies. Food not digested by an immature digestive system leaks into the blood stream and is attacked, causing life long allergies.

Might be worth asking when you were introduced to solid food. In the 60s and 70s, as early as possible was, wrongly, considered best practice.

it was as early as possible because older formulas were so poor that infant malnutrition rates were enormous.

LegacyUser

To the person who stared this topic how good does it feel to be so smug that your wife is breasting feeding. It is easy to say how great and easy something is when your not doing it yourself. I know a few woman who breast feed and one did it to prove a point on how good a mother she is but in reality it was to lose weight/ keep off weight. Since she stopped feeding she lost more weight and now is thinner that when she was in college. Her skin and hair look don't look great and she is moody.
Another woman I know tried to bf but it did not work for her and she decided not to try on her second child due the to time factor and the age of her other child.
Another person I know plans to bf her baby like her friends did. I think for some woman bf seems to be a point scoring against other mothers and for the fact that it helps you to lose baby weight.
Life is hard enough for people out there at the moment and when your a new mother being told bf is best can be hard to take. The majority of people want to do what is best for there baby/child. We don't all live in a perfect world were sit down and feed a baby for as long as they want.

KittyeeTrix

Only gave breastmilk to one of my kids as he was premature born. I had to express it and give it to him from a bottle.
It was a nightmare and he was prone to infections way more than his older brother who was fed formula.
I swore I'd never breastfeed again and I didn't.

My daughter was born premature as well and I bottlefed her formula. She thrived and I never regretted my decision.
I don't feel that I didn't bond with them and never experienced any guilt because of bottle feeding!

carfiosaoorl

psychward wrote: »

Yet you judge people who do choose to breastfeed ?

No I dont. I dont think that that one clique defines all mothers who breastfeed. I know plenty of women IRL and on other parenting forums who breast feed. Most of them go about their daily business and give advice when its asked for and others bombard people with their opinions. They honestly seem to believe that they have life sussed and everyone else around them who doesnt do the same thing is an idiot. This is the elitist element Im talking about, not all women who breast feed.

January

OutOfStep Dad, I will not be approving your posts again until you learn to be civil to other posters.

implausible

wise woman wrote: »

I know a few woman who breast feed and one did it to prove a point on how good a mother she is but in reality it was to lose weight/ keep off weight. Since she stopped feeding she lost more weight and now is thinner that when she was in college. Her skin and hair look don't look great and she is moody.
Another woman I know tried to bf but it did not work for her and she decided not to try on her second child due the to time factor and the age of her other child.
Another person I know plans to bf her baby like her friends did. I think for some woman bf seems to be a point scoring against other mothers and for the fact that it helps you to lose baby weight.
Life is hard enough for people out there at the moment and when your a new mother being told bf is best can be hard to take.

I don't really see how a mother's motivation to do it is relevant. It is the baby who benefits, regardless of why the mother did it! And surely a breastfeeding mother is as entitled to the side-effect of losing weight as a bottle-feeding mother is to the freedom to let other people feed her baby?

The fact is that breast is best. Why is a scientific fact so hard to take? I'm pretty sure I'm not doing the recommended of weekly exercise I should. I know I should be more active, but I don't find activity-promoting ads 'hard to take'.

Little My

If women drink and smoke when pregnant they are choosing not to do the best thing for their baby's health & their own health. Everyone knows the risks, they are generally encouraged to give up, and are judged harshly by society for not only putting their own health at risk but risking their baby's health too. Alcohol comes with little pictures of pregnant women with a line through it just to remind everyone, just as cigarettes have warnings on them targeted at pregnant women.

Yet when women choose not to do the best thing for their baby's health and their own health and not attempt breastfeeding, its all about choice and rights and not being told what to. Does formula come with a notice saying you really should try breastfeeding first?

I have the utmost respect for women who breastfeed for any length of time, be it for a day or a week or 6 months. It is hard and it often doesn't work out for many reasons, and that's just the way things are. If more support was provided, and if breastfeeding was more common, probably a lot of those women who do start & stop relatively soon would continue longer.

But I find hard to fathom why a lot of women choose not to even try.

January

Little My wrote: »

If women drink and smoke when pregnant they are choosing not to do the best thing for their baby's health & their own health. Everyone knows the risks, they are generally encouraged to give up, and are judged harshly by society for not only putting their own health at risk but risking their baby's health too. Alcohol comes with little pictures of pregnant women with a line through it just to remind everyone, just as cigarettes have warnings on them targeted at pregnant women.

Yet when women choose not to do the best thing for their baby's health and their own health and not attempt breastfeeding, its all about choice and rights and not being told what to. Does formula come with a notice saying you really should try breastfeeding first?

I have the utmost respect for women who breastfeed for any length of time, be it for a day or a week or 6 months. It is hard and it often doesn't work out for many reasons, and that's just the way things are. If more support was provided, and if breastfeeding was more common, probably a lot of those women who do start & stop relatively soon would continue longer.

But I find hard to fathom why a lot of women choose not to even try.

Actually, yes, the tin of SMA sitting on my kitchen counter top says:

Breast milk is best for your baby, but if you can’t or choose not to breast feed, we recommend you use SMA First Infant Milk.

Also, this is on the front of their website when you try to click into it:

Notice

Please read this important notice before you view further information about SMA infant formulas:

By proceeding, you will be able to view information about SMA infant milks and other formulas. If you choose to do so, you are accepting that SMA Nutrition is providing this information at your individual request for informational purposes.

When it comes to feeding your baby, breast is best. If you do choose to breastfeed, it's important to eat a healthy diet. A decision not to breastfeed can be difficult to reverse. Introducing a bottle, even if it's only for one feed a day, can have a negative effect on breastfeeding and may reduce the supply of breast milk. Always seek the advice of a healthcare professional if you'd like to use infant formula, and please consider the social and financial implications when deciding whether to breast or bottle-feed. To avoid risks to your baby's health, infant formula should always be prepared, used and stored as instructed on the label.

http://www.smanutrition.ie/sma-products/sma-range/baby-0-6-months-658.aspx?catid=21

Little My

January wrote: »

Actually, yes, the tin of SMA sitting on my kitchen counter top says::

Thanks - I did genuinely wonder about this. It wasn't some sort of sarcastic rhetorical question.

deisemum

implausible wrote: »

I don't really see how a mother's motivation to do it is relevant. It is the baby who benefits, regardless of why the mother did it! And surely a breastfeeding mother is as entitled to the side-effect of losing weight as a bottle-feeding mother is to the freedom to let other people feed her baby?

The fact is that breast is best. Why is a scientific fact so hard to take? I'm pretty sure I'm not doing the recommended of weekly exercise I should. I know I should be more active, but I don't find activity-promoting ads 'hard to take'.

Other benefits for mums who breastfeed is a reduced risk of breast, uterine and ovarian cancer, womb contracts quicker, it lessens the risk of osteoporosis in later years, plus it's free and the the increased prolactin levels at "let down" are calming and it's convenient once established.

However it can be very tiring and stressful to get past the pain etc and stress can adversely affect milk production especially if there's very little support.

Even very experienced mothers who've breastfed their older children can have great difficulty trying to breastfeed a subsequent baby. I know of a woman who had 4 children that she breastfed for a long time, well into toddlerhood but on her 5th baby no matter what she tried with lots of help etc it didn't work out for her and she ended up having to give formula and was devastated. She had a 6th baby and was able to breastfeed that baby.

KittyeeTrix

My 2nd son was 6 weeks early weighing 3lbs 13oz. He had to stay for a few weeks in the baby unit in the Rotunda.

Some of the other mums in there were steadfastly holding out to try breastfeed even though it wasn't happening for them due to latching on issues ( the same happened to me hence I was reduced to bottle feeding the breastmilk)
Some of these women would not let the nurses bottlefeed the babies as they were that insistent on the actual act of breastfeeding!

For me, I just wanted the baby to develop his sucking reflex quickly, gain weight and get home so I was actually very happy that the actual act of breastfeeding was not important to me as I didn't feel at all like I had failed..

mum2be

wise woman wrote: »

Life is hard enough for people out there at the moment and when your a new mother being told bf is best can be hard to take. The majority of people want to do what is best for there baby/child.

What is it about 'breast is best' that it is so hard for a new mom to take? I don't understand this, it's simple, breast is best and as January even pointed out it's on the front of her tin of SMA and I presume on every other infant formula.

We don't all live in a perfect world were sit down and feed a baby for as long as they want.

It's a newborn baby you are talking about and I can't think of any better way than sitting with it and feeding it for as long as it wants, what ever method you choose to feed. I love when my little one is in my arms and I don't care if I'm spoiling her, she's only little for such a short time that I want to make the most of it. None of us live in a perfect world but if we can't spend this time with our babies then there is something very wrong with us.

pwurple

We all know breast is best, but as in my case, it didnt work out.

I had read too much boob propaganda at the time I think and was a wreck thinking I had done the absolute WORST for my child by failing at breast feeding. What parent should feel like that when the child is perfectly healthy with second best the alternative?

I dont use the word propaganda lightly by the way, as in hindsight, with more research there is some propaganda. You can tell by the way the claims are phrased. For example, I read that breastfed children tend to have higher IQs than their non breasfed counterparts. Headline looks good yes? And it is true. What the headline fails to mention, is that women who chose to breastfeed also tend to have higher IQs themselves. So the link is genetic, not the magic power of the milk. Similar with the SIDS claim, the families who dont breastfeed tend to be in lower socio-economic situations and finished education at younger ages. Both of these factors also contribute to SIDs.

There are plenty of real benefits without ludicrous claims about magic effects being cited. We all need to stop beating eachother up over either choice. Breast is best, gold standard, but the alternative is an ok silver medal. Not a complete fail.

lynski

pwurple wrote: »

Breast is best, gold standard, but the alternative is an ok silver medal. Not a complete fail.

Wrong; breast milk is normal; infant formula is an artificial substitute for breast milk.
artificial infant formula is 4th in the WHO recommended hierarchy of feeding;

(1) breastfeeding; (2) mother's own milk expressed and given to her child in some other way; (3) milk of another human mother; and (4) artificial milk feed.

the biggest problem is that people do not know the truth about artificial feeding or breastfeeding. It is not an even playing pitch and until it is any discussion of choice is moot.

pwurple

Oh come on! The first three are all breastmilk.

My point was that we should support eachother in bringing up our children.

I guess some people just prefer to attack their fellow mothers. Way to go.

lynski

that was not meant as an attack, just a point of correction. sorry if you took it that way.
i was quoting the WHO btw and that is their list of recommendations for infant feeding.
The question posed by the op was not pointed at parents like you, but at the 50% who dont bother.
And it is not about magic effects, it is about normal, natural feeding.

implausible

pwurple wrote: »

I had read too much boob propaganda at the time I think and was a wreck thinking I had done the absolute WORST for my child by failing at breast feeding. What parent should feel like that when the child is perfectly healthy with second best the alternative?
<snip>
There are plenty of real benefits without ludicrous claims about magic effects being cited. We all need to stop beating eachother up over either choice. Breast is best, gold standard, but the alternative is an ok silver medal. Not a complete fail.

You see this is the crux of the issue - "Breast is best" is intended to remind mothers of the fact and encourage mothers to at least try breastfeeding. It is not a stick with which to beat those who cannot continue to do so. Unfortunately, there are mothers to whom the message is distressing, as it makes them feel that they have 'failed'. This is not the intention of the health promotion bodies, LLL or most women who share their positive experiences of breastfeeding. A mother who has a good reason to discontinue breastfeeding should not feel that the message is rubbing salt into a wound or expect it to be changed because of her experience.

Women who bottlefeed from day one have usually made a decision based on their health, lifestyle, other children etc. These mothers tend not to be as emotionally involved in the breast vs bottle debate. If I had made a concious, educated decision to bottle-feed from day one, I doubt that any comments or literature would make me feel guilty about it.

Sittingpretty

I don't think this thread is going anywhere. Breastfeeding threads inevitably get to this.

Some people seem happy to live and let live and accepting individual choice. Others seem to be happiest when quoting their well worn repertoire of facts, figures and statistics. If that makes people happy then so be it.

Why does it bother you all so much that some moms don't attempt breastfeeding? Is it not better that we all do what's best for our own children and try not to stick our beaks in? Honestly, does the fact that I or anyone else chose to bf garner me with the right to judge those that don't? No, it does not.

Formula feeding has been, on this thread, equated to feeding mc Donalds, smoking and drinking while pregnant amongst others. Get over yourselves girls. Look after your own babies how you see fit and keep your judgement of others to yourselves. It is appalling.

Discussion is one thing, thinly veiled contempt is quite another.

pwurple

100% agree it is normal, it is natural.

And as a point of distinction, the OP made no such seperation.

I believe what would be more helpful for women would be not to gloss up breastfeeding, and just give the clear honest facts.

I had a rosy picture in my head, similar to what is on the one you get in the hospital brochure. The golden bonding moment of a child staring into your eyes as you breastfeed. Even the classes were mostly a series of BF claims. No need for it, we had already committed to doing it.

The reality for some (i have no idea how many) women is nowhere near that at the start. I had inverted nipples, never even knew it would be a problem in advance despite going to several classes. Had no idea what to do with infected nipples, repeated mastitus, engorgement, or 'barracuda babies', ie the ones who bite pieces of you off. There are ways to deal with all of those, and THAT is the information which should be imparted. Instead of leaving women reelling in confusion and pain when all they want to do is get to that rosy picture. I was so tired I couldnt think straight at that time. I realise now that all I had read was pro-breastfeeding argument, and nothing useful.

You cant bully people into breastfeeding by implying that they are neglecting their children if they don't. The fact is women have eyes and brains, and can see perfectly well that it not the case. Help, support and giving people the tools to overcome the problems is what is needed. Not crazy claims.

Sittingpretty

pwurple wrote: »

100% agree it is normal, it is natural.

And as a point of distinction, the OP made no such seperation.

I believe what would be more helpful for women would be not to gloss up breastfeeding, and just give the clear honest facts.

I had a rosy picture in my head, similar to what is on the one you get in the hospital brochure. The golden bonding moment of a child staring into your eyes as you breastfeed. Even the classes were mostly a series of BF claims. No need for it, we had already committed to doing it.

The reality for some (i have no idea how many) women is nowhere near that at the start. I had inverted nipples, never even knew it would be a problem in advance despite going to several classes. Had no idea what to do with infected nipples, repeated mastitus, engorgement, or 'barracuda babies', ie the ones who bite pieces of you off. There are ways to deal with all of those, and THAT is the information which should be imparted. Instead of leaving women reelling in confusion and pain when all they want to do is get to that rosy picture. I was so tired I couldnt think straight at that time. I realise now that all I had read was pro-breastfeeding argument, and nothing useful.

You cant bully people into breastfeeding by implying that they are neglecting their children if they don't. The fact is women have eyes and brains, and can see perfectly well that it not the case. Help, support and giving people the tools to overcome the problems is what is needed. Not crazy claims.

Sense. At last!

lynski

pwurple wrote: »

100% agree it is normal, it is natural.

And as a point of distinction, the OP made no such seperation.

I believe what would be more helpful for women would be not to gloss up breastfeeding, and just give the clear honest facts.
The fact is women have eyes and brains, and can see perfectly well that it not the case. Help, support and giving people the tools to overcome the problems is what is needed. Not crazy claims.

If you had heard about all those possibilities before would you have gone ahead anyway?
For 'most' women it is a hugely satisfying easy experience - not completely without problems, but name one physical act that is without difficulty that starts from nothing and is repeating many times over instantly and for a period of time? Anything will have some problems.
What you needed was a a good book, a good phn and a support group or internet.
Women have eyes and brains but they do not get the facts - you call it propaganda, but how much did you actually know about breastfeeding or about artificial feeding? I have only learnt on my third child the importance of breastfeeding and the dangers inherent in artificial feeding - despite breastfeeding the previous 2 for 6 mths each.
As i said before it is not a level playing field, it is a propaganda war against big companies, not other mothers. it is a propaganda war against the biggest companies on the planet and it is in their interest to keep us in the dark.
lastly, it is in everyone's interest that people stop smoking - that is without question. It is also in everyones interest that more people breastfeed - healthier babies equals less sick babies equals more resources where needed. Healthier babies also equals healthier adults and the rest of the equation is the same.

KittyeeTrix

In my case it turned out that the chlid who got breastmilk was sicker in his first year of life than any of the others.

Maybe that was an anomaly but it certainly didn't leave me wanting to try it again.

Each to their own I say.

pwurple

lynski wrote: »

If you had heard about all those possibilities before would you have gone ahead anyway?

Of course! Good grief, do you honestly think hiding the reality of it is useful? You think you can dupe women into it as well as bully them?

Ridiculous.

I had a screaming hungry baby on my hands for 4 weeks when it didnt work. I couldn't form a sentence, read or dress myself I was so exhausted, stressed and sore. You think I could read a book or go on the internet at that point? The phn and support groups both had same advice. Feed Through It. What I should have had was nipple shells for the inversion, nipple shields for the barracuda, an antibiotic orally and topically for the mastitus and infected nipples. It could all have been dealt with if I had the information in ADVANCE.

There is no public health nurse at 3am when you are sobbing in a corner. I am completely pro breastfeeding, but honestly I have met several people who met me at the time who said they were completly put off it by the state I was in. That will have more effect than any glossy pamphlet. What needs to happen is that more people like me need to have better experiences.

Ps, the word 'artificial' as I am sure you are aware is highly loaded. Ease off on the holier than thou please. We are not feeding children astroturf or fake christmas trees. It is milkfat, not plastic. I think the bf lobby shoot themselves in the foot by being smug.

nlgbbbblth

Little My wrote: »

But I find hard to fathom why a lot of women choose not to even try.

That's the key question. About ten ladies in my workplace have had babies in the last two years. One has breastfed, the other nine didn't even consider it.

psychward

nlgbbbblth wrote: »

That's the key question. About ten ladies in my workplace have had babies in the last two years. One has breastfed, the other nine didn't even consider it.

Inconvenience for some of them as they want to be able to drink and smoke, put everything they want into their bodies, attend late night parties etc. Breastfeeding means having to watch your diet carefully. It also reduces the ability to delegate bottlefeeding to a partner. It's possible to use a breastpump to fill a bottle but it still means much less sharing of work. Also a belief by some of them that breastfeeding destroys their breasts and nipples. These would be some factors leading into what some call a ''personal choice'' against breastfeeding without even trying it first.

It's unfortunate that those who try and fail or simply cannot for their own vastly different reasons end up feeling guilty as though they've been put into a ''selfish'' category especially because the hormones of pregnancy will tend to amplify such unhelpful emotions.

KittyeeTrix

We are telling ye why we chose not to feckin breastfeed but ye are ignoring what I'm saying!!!!!!!:mad:

I didn't find any benefit to it and I believed that I had a close bond with my 1st child which was not dependant on whether my breast was in his mouth or not!

I chose not to try to breastfeed any of my other children as for me the health benefits were just not evident in the child I'd given it to.

That is it and honestly its a decision I don't regret at all:)

Orion

January wrote: »

OutOfStep Dad, I will not be approving your posts again until you learn to be civil to other posters.

January speaks for all the mods of this forum. No posts (such as your most recent unapproved one) will be approved that are uncivil, patronising, offensive or just plain dicky. This has developed into a very interesting discussion despite your best efforts and trolling it will not be entertained.

KittyeeTrix

psychward wrote: »

Inconvenience for some of them as they want to be able to drink and smoke, put everything they want into their bodies, attend late night parties etc. Breastfeeding means having to watch your diet carefully. It also reduces the ability to delegate bottlefeeding to a partner. It's possible to use a breastpump to fill a bottle but it still means much less sharing of work. Also a belief by some of them that breastfeeding destroys their breasts and nipples.

It's unfortunate that those who try and fail or simply cannot for their own vastly different reasons end up feeling guilty as though they've been put into a ''selfish'' category.

Its this kind of attitude that makes a certain section of moms think that moms who do breastfeed look down upon those who don't......
Unfortunately, some of them feel terribly guilty for it and that is the one aspect of this ridiculous situation that I cannot stand!

implausible

lynski wrote: »

If you had heard about all those possibilities before would you have gone ahead anyway?

You cannot treat grown women like children and advertise the fluffy side of breastfeeding while ignoring the problems that can arise, problems which can be solved with preparation, information and people who know their stuff. If it wasn't for a friend of mine ringing me at the point where I thought I could take no more and reassuring me that it would pass, I cannot say for certain that I would have continued.

psychward wrote: »

Breastfeeding means having to watch your diet carefully.

Now, this is propaganda from the other side. My PHN probably put women off with the warnings about chocolate, green veg and booze, none of which I heeded - I need my chocolate!!! And, once he was sleeping through, a few bottles of beer were a well-deserved treat! Perhaps I should have suffered more to fit the unselfish breastfeeding martyrdom stereotype.

psychward

fluffyorganic1 wrote: »

Its this kind of attitude that makes a certain section of moms think that moms who do breastfeed look down upon those who don't......
Unfortunately, some of them feel terribly guilty for it and that is the one aspect of this ridiculous situation that I cannot stand!

I'm a first time dad on a very steep learning curve. I never had any idea about babies before my little bundle of joy

Basically from my perspective growing to this point in my life... just absorbing information without being directly involved or interested.... it was breastfeeding mums who seemed to get the hard time and who had to feel somehow ashamed of a natural thing and who weren't catered for. Now I am seeing a second perspective exists but perhaps it's good to know that neither side has it easy and perhaps that can help both sides gain a better appreciation and understanding of one another. This idea of a secret war between ''zealots'' on both sides seems ridiculous. Give everyone the information they need and then let them choose for themselves.

implausible wrote: »

Now, this is propaganda from the other side. My PHN probably put women off with the warnings about chocolate, green veg and booze, none of which I heeded - I need my chocolate!!! And, once he was sleeping through, a few bottles of beer were a well-deserved treat! Perhaps I should have suffered more to fit the unselfish breastfeeding martyrdom stereotype.

well it's our first baby so we were anxious about not making any mistakes and this was a huge learning curve for us. I got a big shock when my partner had a cold while pregnant and needed something to unblock her nose. Apparently because she was pregnant she had to use some seawater spray and anything else like paracetamol/beechams/cold remedies etc could have been harmful to the foetus

lynski

pwurple wrote: »

Of course! Good grief, do you honestly think hiding the reality of it is useful? You think you can dupe women into it as well as bully them?

Ridiculous.

I had a screaming hungry baby on my hands for 4 weeks when it didnt work. I couldn't form a sentence, read or dress myself I was so exhausted, stressed and sore. You think I could read a book or go on the internet at that point? The phn and support groups both had same advice. Feed Through It. What I should have had was nipple shells for the inversion, nipple shields for the barracuda, an antibiotic orally and topically for the mastitus and infected nipples. It could all have been dealt with if I had the information in ADVANCE.

There is no public health nurse at 3am when you are sobbing in a corner. I am completely pro breastfeeding, but honestly I have met several people who met me at the time who said they were completly put off it by the state I was in. That will have more effect than any glossy pamphlet. What needs to happen is that more people like me need to have better experiences.

Ps, the word 'artificial' as I am sure you are aware is highly loaded. Ease off on the holier than thou please. We are not feeding children astroturf or fake christmas trees. It is milkfat, not plastic. I think the bf lobby shoot themselves in the foot by being smug.

I did not mean 'hiding' your reality, but that is your reality. not mine or that of many women i know. What i meant was what is the point of bringing upfront ALL the possible problems there might be. you got bad advice and bad support and that is the point i have been making. with correct information, that you obviously have now, you would have enjoyed a successful breastfeeding experience.
As for bullying... plese explain who and what you are talking about.
The information has gotten better every month since i first had my first feed with my first baby 5 yrs ago this week. breastfeeding is natural, but so is exercise and do you go out and start a new exercise routine unprepared? or do you go to the doc, read a little, get equipped? the difference with breastfeeding is you start at the hardest point and work to the easiest. i cant even tell you how often or how long my son feeds for now, it is just part of the day like making a sandwich for the 5yr old or taking the 3 yr old to the loo.
As for the glossy brochures - they are part of the problem! half of them are published by the formula companies in the first place.
go on any good breastfeeding support site look at a good book and all the problems you could potentially have are all laid out for you. As well as all the other good stuff the PHNs and midwives dont tell you about - like relactating if you get off to a bad start - too much work for an Irish PHN, like laid back nursing, like tandem nursing.
ps. To call infant breastmilk substitute given in a plastic bottle artificial feeding is to be deliberately precise - if you think it is holier then thou that is your take not mine.

Orion

Take a deep breath guys. I don't believe either of you mean offence. Let's choose words more carefully but if poor choices are made let's not take offence too easily.

KittyeeTrix

Thanks Psychward:)

Your right when you say there are zealots on both sides.....
I hope it didn't come across like I was personally attacking you:o

psychward

fluffyorganic1 wrote: »

Thanks Psychward:)

I hope it didn't come across like I was personally attacking you:o

I never noticed. I must be used to getting a bashing from women by now lol.

pwurple

You know, I don't really follow the excercise analogy. I don't need to see my GP in advance of going for a jog or walk. Isn't there more rubbish about breastfeeding mothers losing weight faster anyway? Not true by any chance?

And the demonisation of formula companies is unnessecary. I am very thankful they exist. One of the (slightly militant) instructors in the breastfeeding classes had told me that the formula companies don't even leave pregnant women work on the production lines. Obviously implying there is something sinister in the milk. I went for a site visit when I started using the stuff. It is indeed true that pregnant women are not allowed on the line, but it is because of noise levels. You can't put earmuffs on a fetus.

I think more women will manage to breastfeed in Ireland over time. As far as I can see it is increasing. I know that in the CUMH anyway, most of the midwives and PHNs have never done it themselves, so they are not in a position to help. But that will gradually change. I'm sure once we get over a certain critical mass it will become more normal.

In the meantime, less judgement and attack, and more kindness and acceptance of peoples choices would help.

bionic.laura

Anything will have some problems.
What you needed was a a good book, a good phn and a support group or internet.

with correct information, that you obviously have now, you would have enjoyed a successful breastfeeding experience.

Hmm I'm not so sure. I read a number of good books while pregnant and breastfeeding. I read Jack Newman, Kellymom and other websites until I was blue in the face. I watched youtube videos. The PHN who specialised in breastfeeding came to my house. I have a fabulous internet support group and friends who breastfed. I had a lot of help from the midwives especially when I was readmitted to hospital with complications for a week. They saw how much I was struggling with breastfeeding. It still didn't work out... Sometimes it just doesn't as the midwife from the lactation team in the hospital told me.
I'm sorry but it's not always true that with the correct information and support it will always be easy and successful. I'd agree with pwurple here.

krankykitty

I don't know what it is about breastfeeding (and parenting in general) that makes complete strangers feel that they can comment and criticise other people's personal choices. I notice that nearly every person who tried breastfeeding unsuccessfully has felt that they've had to give detailed explanation about why they did not continue feeding. People should really mind their own business when it comes to what others do with their bodies, though I suppose we do live in Ireland where there's been a long tradition of telling people (women particularly) what to do and what not to do with their body. It's the same when you see the arguments about C-section vs "normal" birth. People who elect to have sections feel they have to justify it. As do women who choose to give birth in a sacred pond by moonlight hanging by their ankles or whatever.

Personally, if I had a baby and decided to breastfeed/not to breastfeed I would not be telling anyone the reasons why and if they had something to say about it i'd be quick smart telling them to mind their own beeswax.

Parents should be supporting each other not finding ways to hassle those who are doing it different to you.

Ayla

For me I think this "breast vs. formula" issue boils down to choice...

Those women who try breastfeeding for any amount of time but find they cannot for whatever reason - be it medical condition/medication/other committments/breastfeeding issues (cracked nipples/mastitis/etc)/etc...to me these women have no choice. There is no decision to be made. They simply cannot breastfeed, and we are lucky that we live in a society where another option is available. They should not at all feel any sense of guilt, nor should they have their feeding judged by *anyone*.

It is those women who choose during pregnancy, or even before they become pregnant (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056449602&page=3), that they won't even attempt it...those women have made a choice. There are a million reasons why someone would make this choice, and I can appreciate many of them.

For me, since I don't think it fair on anyone to presume anything about their life, nor is it fair to ask probing and personal questions, I butt out. I keep my own personal opinions to myself and I would hope that everyone would do the same for me.

LegacyUser

Ayla wrote: »

For me I think this "breast vs. formula" issue boils down to choice...

Those women who try breastfeeding for any amount of time but find they cannot for whatever reason - be it medical condition/medication/other committments/breastfeeding issues (cracked nipples/mastitis/etc)/etc...to me these women have no choice. There is no decision to be made. They simply cannot breastfeed, and we are lucky that we live in a society where another option is available. They should not at all feel any sense of guilt, nor should they have their feeding judged by *anyone*.

It is those women who choose during pregnancy, or even before they become pregnant (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056449602&page=3), that they won't even attempt it...those women have made a choice. There are a million reasons why someone would make this choice, and I can appreciate many of them.

For me, since I don't think it fair on anyone to presume anything about their life, nor is it fair to ask probing and personal questions, I butt out. I keep my own personal opinions to myself and I would hope that everyone would do the same for me.

Mothers have all the choices, but baby has no choice. Baby eats what baby is given to eat. They have no say, they are the innocent victims in this newly found independence for mothers.

Our society is the "me first" society.

And I am ashamed to be part of it.

Orion

There - I gave you the last word. Thread closed to stop you posting more rubbish and making us innocent victims of your outdated, archaic, misogynistic tripe.

For what it's worth I'm ashamed you're part of our society too.

Oh - I guess that gives me the last word instead. Sorry about that.