Breastfeeding tip-toeing

mum2be

wise woman wrote: »

Life is hard enough for people out there at the moment and when your a new mother being told bf is best can be hard to take. The majority of people want to do what is best for there baby/child.

What is it about 'breast is best' that it is so hard for a new mom to take? I don't understand this, it's simple, breast is best and as January even pointed out it's on the front of her tin of SMA and I presume on every other infant formula.

We don't all live in a perfect world were sit down and feed a baby for as long as they want.

It's a newborn baby you are talking about and I can't think of any better way than sitting with it and feeding it for as long as it wants, what ever method you choose to feed. I love when my little one is in my arms and I don't care if I'm spoiling her, she's only little for such a short time that I want to make the most of it. None of us live in a perfect world but if we can't spend this time with our babies then there is something very wrong with us.

pwurple

We all know breast is best, but as in my case, it didnt work out.

I had read too much boob propaganda at the time I think and was a wreck thinking I had done the absolute WORST for my child by failing at breast feeding. What parent should feel like that when the child is perfectly healthy with second best the alternative?

I dont use the word propaganda lightly by the way, as in hindsight, with more research there is some propaganda. You can tell by the way the claims are phrased. For example, I read that breastfed children tend to have higher IQs than their non breasfed counterparts. Headline looks good yes? And it is true. What the headline fails to mention, is that women who chose to breastfeed also tend to have higher IQs themselves. So the link is genetic, not the magic power of the milk. Similar with the SIDS claim, the families who dont breastfeed tend to be in lower socio-economic situations and finished education at younger ages. Both of these factors also contribute to SIDs.

There are plenty of real benefits without ludicrous claims about magic effects being cited. We all need to stop beating eachother up over either choice. Breast is best, gold standard, but the alternative is an ok silver medal. Not a complete fail.

lynski

pwurple wrote: »

Breast is best, gold standard, but the alternative is an ok silver medal. Not a complete fail.

Wrong; breast milk is normal; infant formula is an artificial substitute for breast milk.
artificial infant formula is 4th in the WHO recommended hierarchy of feeding;

(1) breastfeeding; (2) mother's own milk expressed and given to her child in some other way; (3) milk of another human mother; and (4) artificial milk feed.

the biggest problem is that people do not know the truth about artificial feeding or breastfeeding. It is not an even playing pitch and until it is any discussion of choice is moot.

pwurple

Oh come on! The first three are all breastmilk.

My point was that we should support eachother in bringing up our children.

I guess some people just prefer to attack their fellow mothers. Way to go.

lynski

that was not meant as an attack, just a point of correction. sorry if you took it that way.
i was quoting the WHO btw and that is their list of recommendations for infant feeding.
The question posed by the op was not pointed at parents like you, but at the 50% who dont bother.
And it is not about magic effects, it is about normal, natural feeding.

implausible

pwurple wrote: »

I had read too much boob propaganda at the time I think and was a wreck thinking I had done the absolute WORST for my child by failing at breast feeding. What parent should feel like that when the child is perfectly healthy with second best the alternative?
<snip>
There are plenty of real benefits without ludicrous claims about magic effects being cited. We all need to stop beating eachother up over either choice. Breast is best, gold standard, but the alternative is an ok silver medal. Not a complete fail.

You see this is the crux of the issue - "Breast is best" is intended to remind mothers of the fact and encourage mothers to at least try breastfeeding. It is not a stick with which to beat those who cannot continue to do so. Unfortunately, there are mothers to whom the message is distressing, as it makes them feel that they have 'failed'. This is not the intention of the health promotion bodies, LLL or most women who share their positive experiences of breastfeeding. A mother who has a good reason to discontinue breastfeeding should not feel that the message is rubbing salt into a wound or expect it to be changed because of her experience.

Women who bottlefeed from day one have usually made a decision based on their health, lifestyle, other children etc. These mothers tend not to be as emotionally involved in the breast vs bottle debate. If I had made a concious, educated decision to bottle-feed from day one, I doubt that any comments or literature would make me feel guilty about it.

Sittingpretty

I don't think this thread is going anywhere. Breastfeeding threads inevitably get to this.

Some people seem happy to live and let live and accepting individual choice. Others seem to be happiest when quoting their well worn repertoire of facts, figures and statistics. If that makes people happy then so be it.

Why does it bother you all so much that some moms don't attempt breastfeeding? Is it not better that we all do what's best for our own children and try not to stick our beaks in? Honestly, does the fact that I or anyone else chose to bf garner me with the right to judge those that don't? No, it does not.

Formula feeding has been, on this thread, equated to feeding mc Donalds, smoking and drinking while pregnant amongst others. Get over yourselves girls. Look after your own babies how you see fit and keep your judgement of others to yourselves. It is appalling.

Discussion is one thing, thinly veiled contempt is quite another.

pwurple

100% agree it is normal, it is natural.

And as a point of distinction, the OP made no such seperation.

I believe what would be more helpful for women would be not to gloss up breastfeeding, and just give the clear honest facts.

I had a rosy picture in my head, similar to what is on the one you get in the hospital brochure. The golden bonding moment of a child staring into your eyes as you breastfeed. Even the classes were mostly a series of BF claims. No need for it, we had already committed to doing it.

The reality for some (i have no idea how many) women is nowhere near that at the start. I had inverted nipples, never even knew it would be a problem in advance despite going to several classes. Had no idea what to do with infected nipples, repeated mastitus, engorgement, or 'barracuda babies', ie the ones who bite pieces of you off. There are ways to deal with all of those, and THAT is the information which should be imparted. Instead of leaving women reelling in confusion and pain when all they want to do is get to that rosy picture. I was so tired I couldnt think straight at that time. I realise now that all I had read was pro-breastfeeding argument, and nothing useful.

You cant bully people into breastfeeding by implying that they are neglecting their children if they don't. The fact is women have eyes and brains, and can see perfectly well that it not the case. Help, support and giving people the tools to overcome the problems is what is needed. Not crazy claims.

Sittingpretty

pwurple wrote: »

100% agree it is normal, it is natural.

And as a point of distinction, the OP made no such seperation.

I believe what would be more helpful for women would be not to gloss up breastfeeding, and just give the clear honest facts.

I had a rosy picture in my head, similar to what is on the one you get in the hospital brochure. The golden bonding moment of a child staring into your eyes as you breastfeed. Even the classes were mostly a series of BF claims. No need for it, we had already committed to doing it.

The reality for some (i have no idea how many) women is nowhere near that at the start. I had inverted nipples, never even knew it would be a problem in advance despite going to several classes. Had no idea what to do with infected nipples, repeated mastitus, engorgement, or 'barracuda babies', ie the ones who bite pieces of you off. There are ways to deal with all of those, and THAT is the information which should be imparted. Instead of leaving women reelling in confusion and pain when all they want to do is get to that rosy picture. I was so tired I couldnt think straight at that time. I realise now that all I had read was pro-breastfeeding argument, and nothing useful.

You cant bully people into breastfeeding by implying that they are neglecting their children if they don't. The fact is women have eyes and brains, and can see perfectly well that it not the case. Help, support and giving people the tools to overcome the problems is what is needed. Not crazy claims.

Sense. At last!

lynski

pwurple wrote: »

100% agree it is normal, it is natural.

And as a point of distinction, the OP made no such seperation.

I believe what would be more helpful for women would be not to gloss up breastfeeding, and just give the clear honest facts.
The fact is women have eyes and brains, and can see perfectly well that it not the case. Help, support and giving people the tools to overcome the problems is what is needed. Not crazy claims.

If you had heard about all those possibilities before would you have gone ahead anyway?
For 'most' women it is a hugely satisfying easy experience - not completely without problems, but name one physical act that is without difficulty that starts from nothing and is repeating many times over instantly and for a period of time? Anything will have some problems.
What you needed was a a good book, a good phn and a support group or internet.
Women have eyes and brains but they do not get the facts - you call it propaganda, but how much did you actually know about breastfeeding or about artificial feeding? I have only learnt on my third child the importance of breastfeeding and the dangers inherent in artificial feeding - despite breastfeeding the previous 2 for 6 mths each.
As i said before it is not a level playing field, it is a propaganda war against big companies, not other mothers. it is a propaganda war against the biggest companies on the planet and it is in their interest to keep us in the dark.
lastly, it is in everyone's interest that people stop smoking - that is without question. It is also in everyones interest that more people breastfeed - healthier babies equals less sick babies equals more resources where needed. Healthier babies also equals healthier adults and the rest of the equation is the same.

KittyeeTrix

In my case it turned out that the chlid who got breastmilk was sicker in his first year of life than any of the others.

Maybe that was an anomaly but it certainly didn't leave me wanting to try it again.

Each to their own I say.

pwurple

lynski wrote: »

If you had heard about all those possibilities before would you have gone ahead anyway?

Of course! Good grief, do you honestly think hiding the reality of it is useful? You think you can dupe women into it as well as bully them?

Ridiculous.

I had a screaming hungry baby on my hands for 4 weeks when it didnt work. I couldn't form a sentence, read or dress myself I was so exhausted, stressed and sore. You think I could read a book or go on the internet at that point? The phn and support groups both had same advice. Feed Through It. What I should have had was nipple shells for the inversion, nipple shields for the barracuda, an antibiotic orally and topically for the mastitus and infected nipples. It could all have been dealt with if I had the information in ADVANCE.

There is no public health nurse at 3am when you are sobbing in a corner. I am completely pro breastfeeding, but honestly I have met several people who met me at the time who said they were completly put off it by the state I was in. That will have more effect than any glossy pamphlet. What needs to happen is that more people like me need to have better experiences.

Ps, the word 'artificial' as I am sure you are aware is highly loaded. Ease off on the holier than thou please. We are not feeding children astroturf or fake christmas trees. It is milkfat, not plastic. I think the bf lobby shoot themselves in the foot by being smug.

nlgbbbblth

Little My wrote: »

But I find hard to fathom why a lot of women choose not to even try.

That's the key question. About ten ladies in my workplace have had babies in the last two years. One has breastfed, the other nine didn't even consider it.

psychward

nlgbbbblth wrote: »

That's the key question. About ten ladies in my workplace have had babies in the last two years. One has breastfed, the other nine didn't even consider it.

Inconvenience for some of them as they want to be able to drink and smoke, put everything they want into their bodies, attend late night parties etc. Breastfeeding means having to watch your diet carefully. It also reduces the ability to delegate bottlefeeding to a partner. It's possible to use a breastpump to fill a bottle but it still means much less sharing of work. Also a belief by some of them that breastfeeding destroys their breasts and nipples. These would be some factors leading into what some call a ''personal choice'' against breastfeeding without even trying it first.

It's unfortunate that those who try and fail or simply cannot for their own vastly different reasons end up feeling guilty as though they've been put into a ''selfish'' category especially because the hormones of pregnancy will tend to amplify such unhelpful emotions.

KittyeeTrix

We are telling ye why we chose not to feckin breastfeed but ye are ignoring what I'm saying!!!!!!!:mad:

I didn't find any benefit to it and I believed that I had a close bond with my 1st child which was not dependant on whether my breast was in his mouth or not!

I chose not to try to breastfeed any of my other children as for me the health benefits were just not evident in the child I'd given it to.

That is it and honestly its a decision I don't regret at all:)

Orion

January wrote: »

OutOfStep Dad, I will not be approving your posts again until you learn to be civil to other posters.

January speaks for all the mods of this forum. No posts (such as your most recent unapproved one) will be approved that are uncivil, patronising, offensive or just plain dicky. This has developed into a very interesting discussion despite your best efforts and trolling it will not be entertained.

KittyeeTrix

psychward wrote: »

Inconvenience for some of them as they want to be able to drink and smoke, put everything they want into their bodies, attend late night parties etc. Breastfeeding means having to watch your diet carefully. It also reduces the ability to delegate bottlefeeding to a partner. It's possible to use a breastpump to fill a bottle but it still means much less sharing of work. Also a belief by some of them that breastfeeding destroys their breasts and nipples.

It's unfortunate that those who try and fail or simply cannot for their own vastly different reasons end up feeling guilty as though they've been put into a ''selfish'' category.

Its this kind of attitude that makes a certain section of moms think that moms who do breastfeed look down upon those who don't......
Unfortunately, some of them feel terribly guilty for it and that is the one aspect of this ridiculous situation that I cannot stand!

implausible

lynski wrote: »

If you had heard about all those possibilities before would you have gone ahead anyway?

You cannot treat grown women like children and advertise the fluffy side of breastfeeding while ignoring the problems that can arise, problems which can be solved with preparation, information and people who know their stuff. If it wasn't for a friend of mine ringing me at the point where I thought I could take no more and reassuring me that it would pass, I cannot say for certain that I would have continued.

psychward wrote: »

Breastfeeding means having to watch your diet carefully.

Now, this is propaganda from the other side. My PHN probably put women off with the warnings about chocolate, green veg and booze, none of which I heeded - I need my chocolate!!! And, once he was sleeping through, a few bottles of beer were a well-deserved treat! Perhaps I should have suffered more to fit the unselfish breastfeeding martyrdom stereotype.

psychward

fluffyorganic1 wrote: »

Its this kind of attitude that makes a certain section of moms think that moms who do breastfeed look down upon those who don't......
Unfortunately, some of them feel terribly guilty for it and that is the one aspect of this ridiculous situation that I cannot stand!

I'm a first time dad on a very steep learning curve. I never had any idea about babies before my little bundle of joy

Basically from my perspective growing to this point in my life... just absorbing information without being directly involved or interested.... it was breastfeeding mums who seemed to get the hard time and who had to feel somehow ashamed of a natural thing and who weren't catered for. Now I am seeing a second perspective exists but perhaps it's good to know that neither side has it easy and perhaps that can help both sides gain a better appreciation and understanding of one another. This idea of a secret war between ''zealots'' on both sides seems ridiculous. Give everyone the information they need and then let them choose for themselves.

implausible wrote: »

Now, this is propaganda from the other side. My PHN probably put women off with the warnings about chocolate, green veg and booze, none of which I heeded - I need my chocolate!!! And, once he was sleeping through, a few bottles of beer were a well-deserved treat! Perhaps I should have suffered more to fit the unselfish breastfeeding martyrdom stereotype.

well it's our first baby so we were anxious about not making any mistakes and this was a huge learning curve for us. I got a big shock when my partner had a cold while pregnant and needed something to unblock her nose. Apparently because she was pregnant she had to use some seawater spray and anything else like paracetamol/beechams/cold remedies etc could have been harmful to the foetus

lynski

pwurple wrote: »

Of course! Good grief, do you honestly think hiding the reality of it is useful? You think you can dupe women into it as well as bully them?

Ridiculous.

I had a screaming hungry baby on my hands for 4 weeks when it didnt work. I couldn't form a sentence, read or dress myself I was so exhausted, stressed and sore. You think I could read a book or go on the internet at that point? The phn and support groups both had same advice. Feed Through It. What I should have had was nipple shells for the inversion, nipple shields for the barracuda, an antibiotic orally and topically for the mastitus and infected nipples. It could all have been dealt with if I had the information in ADVANCE.

There is no public health nurse at 3am when you are sobbing in a corner. I am completely pro breastfeeding, but honestly I have met several people who met me at the time who said they were completly put off it by the state I was in. That will have more effect than any glossy pamphlet. What needs to happen is that more people like me need to have better experiences.

Ps, the word 'artificial' as I am sure you are aware is highly loaded. Ease off on the holier than thou please. We are not feeding children astroturf or fake christmas trees. It is milkfat, not plastic. I think the bf lobby shoot themselves in the foot by being smug.

I did not mean 'hiding' your reality, but that is your reality. not mine or that of many women i know. What i meant was what is the point of bringing upfront ALL the possible problems there might be. you got bad advice and bad support and that is the point i have been making. with correct information, that you obviously have now, you would have enjoyed a successful breastfeeding experience.
As for bullying... plese explain who and what you are talking about.
The information has gotten better every month since i first had my first feed with my first baby 5 yrs ago this week. breastfeeding is natural, but so is exercise and do you go out and start a new exercise routine unprepared? or do you go to the doc, read a little, get equipped? the difference with breastfeeding is you start at the hardest point and work to the easiest. i cant even tell you how often or how long my son feeds for now, it is just part of the day like making a sandwich for the 5yr old or taking the 3 yr old to the loo.
As for the glossy brochures - they are part of the problem! half of them are published by the formula companies in the first place.
go on any good breastfeeding support site look at a good book and all the problems you could potentially have are all laid out for you. As well as all the other good stuff the PHNs and midwives dont tell you about - like relactating if you get off to a bad start - too much work for an Irish PHN, like laid back nursing, like tandem nursing.
ps. To call infant breastmilk substitute given in a plastic bottle artificial feeding is to be deliberately precise - if you think it is holier then thou that is your take not mine.

Orion

Take a deep breath guys. I don't believe either of you mean offence. Let's choose words more carefully but if poor choices are made let's not take offence too easily.

KittyeeTrix

Thanks Psychward:)

Your right when you say there are zealots on both sides.....
I hope it didn't come across like I was personally attacking you:o

psychward

fluffyorganic1 wrote: »

Thanks Psychward:)

I hope it didn't come across like I was personally attacking you:o

I never noticed. I must be used to getting a bashing from women by now lol.

pwurple

You know, I don't really follow the excercise analogy. I don't need to see my GP in advance of going for a jog or walk. Isn't there more rubbish about breastfeeding mothers losing weight faster anyway? Not true by any chance?

And the demonisation of formula companies is unnessecary. I am very thankful they exist. One of the (slightly militant) instructors in the breastfeeding classes had told me that the formula companies don't even leave pregnant women work on the production lines. Obviously implying there is something sinister in the milk. I went for a site visit when I started using the stuff. It is indeed true that pregnant women are not allowed on the line, but it is because of noise levels. You can't put earmuffs on a fetus.

I think more women will manage to breastfeed in Ireland over time. As far as I can see it is increasing. I know that in the CUMH anyway, most of the midwives and PHNs have never done it themselves, so they are not in a position to help. But that will gradually change. I'm sure once we get over a certain critical mass it will become more normal.

In the meantime, less judgement and attack, and more kindness and acceptance of peoples choices would help.

bionic.laura

Anything will have some problems.
What you needed was a a good book, a good phn and a support group or internet.

with correct information, that you obviously have now, you would have enjoyed a successful breastfeeding experience.

Hmm I'm not so sure. I read a number of good books while pregnant and breastfeeding. I read Jack Newman, Kellymom and other websites until I was blue in the face. I watched youtube videos. The PHN who specialised in breastfeeding came to my house. I have a fabulous internet support group and friends who breastfed. I had a lot of help from the midwives especially when I was readmitted to hospital with complications for a week. They saw how much I was struggling with breastfeeding. It still didn't work out... Sometimes it just doesn't as the midwife from the lactation team in the hospital told me.
I'm sorry but it's not always true that with the correct information and support it will always be easy and successful. I'd agree with pwurple here.

krankykitty

I don't know what it is about breastfeeding (and parenting in general) that makes complete strangers feel that they can comment and criticise other people's personal choices. I notice that nearly every person who tried breastfeeding unsuccessfully has felt that they've had to give detailed explanation about why they did not continue feeding. People should really mind their own business when it comes to what others do with their bodies, though I suppose we do live in Ireland where there's been a long tradition of telling people (women particularly) what to do and what not to do with their body. It's the same when you see the arguments about C-section vs "normal" birth. People who elect to have sections feel they have to justify it. As do women who choose to give birth in a sacred pond by moonlight hanging by their ankles or whatever.

Personally, if I had a baby and decided to breastfeed/not to breastfeed I would not be telling anyone the reasons why and if they had something to say about it i'd be quick smart telling them to mind their own beeswax.

Parents should be supporting each other not finding ways to hassle those who are doing it different to you.

Ayla

For me I think this "breast vs. formula" issue boils down to choice...

Those women who try breastfeeding for any amount of time but find they cannot for whatever reason - be it medical condition/medication/other committments/breastfeeding issues (cracked nipples/mastitis/etc)/etc...to me these women have no choice. There is no decision to be made. They simply cannot breastfeed, and we are lucky that we live in a society where another option is available. They should not at all feel any sense of guilt, nor should they have their feeding judged by *anyone*.

It is those women who choose during pregnancy, or even before they become pregnant (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056449602&page=3), that they won't even attempt it...those women have made a choice. There are a million reasons why someone would make this choice, and I can appreciate many of them.

For me, since I don't think it fair on anyone to presume anything about their life, nor is it fair to ask probing and personal questions, I butt out. I keep my own personal opinions to myself and I would hope that everyone would do the same for me.

LegacyUser

Ayla wrote: »

For me I think this "breast vs. formula" issue boils down to choice...

Those women who try breastfeeding for any amount of time but find they cannot for whatever reason - be it medical condition/medication/other committments/breastfeeding issues (cracked nipples/mastitis/etc)/etc...to me these women have no choice. There is no decision to be made. They simply cannot breastfeed, and we are lucky that we live in a society where another option is available. They should not at all feel any sense of guilt, nor should they have their feeding judged by *anyone*.

It is those women who choose during pregnancy, or even before they become pregnant (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056449602&page=3), that they won't even attempt it...those women have made a choice. There are a million reasons why someone would make this choice, and I can appreciate many of them.

For me, since I don't think it fair on anyone to presume anything about their life, nor is it fair to ask probing and personal questions, I butt out. I keep my own personal opinions to myself and I would hope that everyone would do the same for me.

Mothers have all the choices, but baby has no choice. Baby eats what baby is given to eat. They have no say, they are the innocent victims in this newly found independence for mothers.

Our society is the "me first" society.

And I am ashamed to be part of it.

Orion

There - I gave you the last word. Thread closed to stop you posting more rubbish and making us innocent victims of your outdated, archaic, misogynistic tripe.

For what it's worth I'm ashamed you're part of our society too.

Oh - I guess that gives me the last word instead. Sorry about that.